Afghans and Turks express their support for Morsi and Egyptian people

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Nah ..he really has a good head on things since he's keen on Ikhwans Fascist-Nazi connections *eye roll*

[ComradePashtun]

So basically, religious scholarship is not the criterion for ruling but Western PHD's are.

In many areas of governance a western PhD without a doubt is essential than a religious scholarship. In Afghanistan there are hardly 5 religious scholars among the talib horde anyway.

[Badlun]

Reading all this discussion make my belief stronger in secularism. To give the devil his due! Why Mullahs are not satisfied with their roles as religious and spiritual leaders of their community. Why they also have lust for political power.

RTR has proved it that even the first 4 caliphs were not religious scholars but had direct experience. No doubt they were great political Arab leaders but not Mullahs. After them we have all kings, sultans and monarchs. The only exception is Taliban and Ikhwanis. Why we are so much adamant to advocate for these two exceptions. In 1400 years we did not have a government of religious Mullahs but today especially for Pashtunland we want it!

[RevolutionThroughReason]

@ Badlun

When I said they had direct experience related I meant they had direct example and understanding of the way of the Prophet because they had lived with him; we don't have that so therefore we need people who have expertise on this subject matter so we can extrapolate how we're supposed to approach problems.

So while I did argue (not prove) that the Khulafa were not religious scholars; The Need for Religious Scholars is still valid; since no one who had direct experience with Nabi(saw) exists today. The reason we need people like the Ikhwan is because we're a Muslim society and thus to reflect the Population's interest and values Islam must have be implemented to Govern the society. Also Ikhwan represents the balance of both worlds; It teaches the importance of secular knowledge like Science and Math but balances it with Religious Principles and Values ruling the society.

Secularism lacks social understanding; and Talibanism lacks modern scientific understanding....so the best way is Ikhwan Al Muslimeen

Religious scholars are there to help legislate to the Amir; the Amir decides whether those legislations are appropriate and implements them. The Amir however cannot make a decision that contradicts Islamic Law and he must enforce it. So while the Amir does not NEED to be a scholar he must follow Islamic principles and administer them in society; He can't lead Muslims if he is purely secular.

If your belief is reassured that's great; but that doesn't make your belief correct ...in fact it isn't correct; It demonstrates an ignorance of Islamic doctrine and history It is simply your emotional opinion and not a logical fact.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

In many areas of governance a western PhD without a doubt is essential than a religious scholarship. In Afghanistan there are hardly 5 religious scholars among the talib horde anyway.

Well more over there is a FALSE Dichotomy he presents. Science and Mathematics; these aren't Western, because They pertain to the processes of nature; Nature is not Western or Eastern, nature simply is the world and universe that contains all of us.

There's even a Hadith where they were cross polinating Date-Trees and he was against it ...but then he stopped and said that they should do what they know best. This means there are many areas which deal with things that are subject to knowledge outside of religious scholarship. A leader needs to have understanding of those things too because society has to eat, clothe and shelter itself.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Well more over there is a FALSE Dichotomy he presents. Science and Mathematics; these aren't Western, because They pertain to the processes of nature; Nature is not Western or Eastern, nature simply is the world and universe that contains all of us.

There's even a Hadith where they were cross polinating Date-Trees and he was against it ...but then he stopped and said that they should do what they know best. This means there are many areas which deal with things that are subject to knowledge outside of religious scholarship. A leader needs to have understanding of those things too because society has to eat, clothe and shelter itself.

Where have I said that one should not have knowledge of science?

You know this deliberate misrepresentation of other peoples views lowersthe weight of your arguments.


A Western PHd is not synonimous to science of math.

Whether you like it or not, leaders are selected based on their level of knowledge of the deen. There even aqwaal from scholars who were scientists themselves. I will post a few quotes inshaa Allah.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Where have I said that one should not have knowledge of science?

You know this deliberate misrepresentation of other peoples views lowersthe weight of your arguments.


A Western PHd is not synonimous to science of math.

Whether you like it or not, leaders are selected based on their level of knowledge of the deen. There even aqwaal from scholars who were scientists themselves. I will post a few quotes inshaa Allah.

I was not making the claim that you said we should not get knowledge in math and science ; but you made the Allusion it's absurd that I suggested PhD qualifications are important to highlight but religious scholarship qualifications are not. Well I never said that the everyone has to have a PhD; just that many Ikhwan have PhDs. Masters degrees are also very high qualifications which are acceptable in Governance.

Having knowledge of the world/universe around us is fundamentally important for a leader because they need to know the relevance of their laws and their edicts when they govern. They can't just implement a religous law without understanding whether or not it actually pertains.

Thus being competent in this is crucial ....as for religious legislation; people who are experts in those fields such as Ulama can be advisers to assist the Amir. While a Western PhD is not synonymous with Math and Science and other subjects It is however preodminant that The Highest Qualification of expertise in such subjects is the PhD in Modern Times. Thus having a High degree of academic qualification is important.

And bear in mind I never said that a leader does not need knowledge in deen I said that he does not have to be a Scholar i.e. 'Alim, There's a difference between "knowledgeable about deen" and being an 'Alim; 'Alim are experts their SPECIFIC occupation is expertise in religion.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

When they do dastaar bandi in darul uloom haqqaniyyah what qualifications do they have for graduates?

I was not making the claim that you said we should not get knowledge; but you made the Allusion that having a PhD is not crucial; Well I never said that the everyone has to have a PhD; just that many Ikhwan have PhDs

Having knowledge of the world/universe around us is fundamentally important for a leader because they need to know the relevance of their laws and their edicts when they govern. They can't just implement a religous law without understanding whether or not it actually pertains.

Thus being competent in this is crucial ....as for religious legislation; people who are experts in those fields such as Ulama can be advisers to assist the Amir. While a Western PhD is not synonymous with Math and Science and other subjects It is however preodminant that The Highest Qualification of expertise in such subjects is the PhD in Modern Times. Thus having a High degree of academic qualification is important.

And bear in mind I never said that a leader does not need knowledge in deen I said that he does not have to be a Scholar i.e. 'Alim, There's a difference between "knowledgeable about deen" and being an 'Alim; 'Alim are experts their SPECIFIC occupation is expertise in religion.

[Badlun]

Whether you like it or not, leaders are selected based on their level of knowledge of the deen. There even aqwaal from scholars who were scientists themselves. I will post a few quotes inshaa Allah.

Please tell me few names of those leaders who were selected based on their level of knowledge of deen in the past 1400 years?

Abu harira, Aabdullah Ibne Masood, Aabu Zar, Hazrate Ayesha, Aashabe Suffa etc had more knowledge of deen than the first 4 caliphs. Why they were not selected as leaders instead?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Well as far as I know in Dar Ul Uloom

One of the key things is learning all the Major Hanafi Jurists opinions
secondly mastering the sahih sitta collections AND their sharh as well as some lesser books like Miskat al Masabih
Usul Al Fiqh
Islamic History
Mastering Qur'an's Arabic (not spoken Arabic though)
Tafasir (Jalalain mainly; they ignore Zamakhshari even though he's important)
Siratun Nabi

and then after you start doing specialization in whatever special subject you have interest in; Fiqh, Tafsir etc etc etc.

[Badlun]

When they do dastaar bandi in darul uloom haqqaniyyah what qualifications do they have for graduates?

I have been to darul uloom Haqanya at Akorha Khattak many times. I know personally Maulana Samul Haq.

The students graduated there are for running mosques, to be pesh Imams in different villages and cities not as political leaders to run state affairs.

The JUI Samiul Haq group now has almost no representation in provincial or national assemblies of Pakistan.

Taliban are not political leaders. they are an aberration only in Pashtun part of the world and now they hold no political power nowhere neither in Pakistan nor in Afghanistan. Because of their terror they may control few pockets but they do not have any real political legitimate power no where.

Apart from Pakistan and Afghanistan we do not have a single example of any religious scholar to be a political leader too. Ikhwanis are already under fire.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

This is actually very true; No where in Dar ul Uloom's curriculum do they cover issues of Statecraft except maybe some rulings on how Political leaders are decided

if I remember correctly they don't even cover Al-Ahkam Al-Sultaniyyah which is crucial to study. for Islamic Governance.

But the Ikhwan are fine because they're not trying to put a religious scholar in Power; they're trying to have a society governed by Islamic Principles.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Well as far as I know in Dar Ul Uloom

One of the key things is learning all the Major Hanafi Jurists opinions
secondly mastering the sahih sitta collections AND their sharh as well as some lesser books like Miskat al Masabih
Usul Al Fiqh
Islamic History
Mastering Qur'an's Arabic (not spoken Arabic though)
Tafasir (Jalalain mainly; they ignore Zamakhshari even though he's important)
Siratun Nabi

and then after you start doing specialization in whatever special subject you have interest in; Fiqh, Tafsir etc etc etc.

You think all of that is worth less than phd from columbia uni?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

This is actually very true; No where in Dar ul Uloom's curriculum do they cover issues of Statecraft except maybe some rulings on how Political leaders are decided

if I remember correctly they don't even cover Al-Ahkam Al-Sultaniyyah which is crucial to study. for Islamic Governance.

But the Ikhwan are fine because they're not trying to put a religious scholar in Power; they're trying to have a society governed by Islamic Principles.

Ahkaam sultaniyya is not part of hanafi school?

How can they govern by Islamic principles when they havent even study it?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Ahkaam sultaniyya is not part of hanafi school?

How can they govern by Islamic principles when they havent even study it?

you're right it isn't BUT The writer was both a Hanafi and Shafi'i trained scholar; but he abided by Shafi'i; but he covers Hanafi rulings in his books.

They govern by Islamic principles by having Ulama as ministers.