Ultra Patriotism Among British and American Muslims

[Wowra]

How do you feel that the Patriot Act and NDAA have influenced blind patriotism in America, and similarly, those in England - do you feel there is a pressure to appear zealously patriotic in a post-9/11 world? For instance, I once got into a casual argument with a Pakistani that the Taliban were not "bad guys" and that there are no black and white shades of man. That the world is in fact populated by anti-heroes, but as the conversation progressed, I found myself having to defend my definition of patriotism against his view of zealous, blind patriotism. He insisted that what he knew of the Taliban was the popular western belief of blood-thirsty savages. It was really bizarre, but it occurred to me that 9/11 was over a decade ago, so young Pakistani and Afghan-Americans have had to grow up with this pressure to appear patriotic, and likely in a lot of instances internalized this influence. Similarly, friends that attend a primarily South and Central Asian mosque locally have noted that absolute reluctance to say anything critical of America, and that any political issues brought up within the mosque are critical of foreign nations in a pro-Western manner. Is this across the board, or is this perhaps a couple of coincidental instances?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Mr. Snow,

I think that there are a few things to consider.

1) Data from the large sample size Pew study shows that American Muslims actually do hold theologically variant beliefs in contrast to the rest of the Muslim populations world round. This includes placing emphasis on certain verses of the Quranic scripture versus others. So some of it may be true legitimate feeling. You have to remember that a large number of these folks were raised in this environment that influences their thought processes on what constitutes "terror" and what does not. I would say if you could tease out voting patterns I would venture to say Muslims have high turn out in the US - indicating some degree of affinity for their birth or adopted country.

2) So Mike Scheuer, who I very much admire, has been an advocate of the American Muslim community conveying accurate historical responses with respect to why actions occur in the Muslim world. He agrees with your take that many imams and Muslims kowtow to the public perception that Islam is a "religion of peace." He doesnt negate the concept that religions in general have the scriptural basis to seek out peaceful resolutions - but notes that all the monotheistic faiths have mechanisms inherent in them that also permit theologians to advocate "just war" causes (e.g. Augustine's just war theory, pope urban the II calling for defensive crusades).

3) That being said, its pretty much a fact that advocates of trial by jury have no idea what they are talking about when they say "its the best system ever devised." Sure, when compared with trial by far or walking on heated iron slabs it trumps that - but recent studies by high caliber groups show that emotion bias pervades the decision making in our justice system:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2...n-study-shows/

"They might perceive their bias to be socially unacceptable, they might not be aware of their biases or they might view the questioning as an invasion of privacy (e.g., Vidmar, N., 2003). When all of us are victims: Juror prejudice and “terrorist” trials. Chicago-Kent Law Review, 78, 1143–1178). This suggests that a juror’s belated expressions of doubt about his own impartiality might merit probing, even if that juror failed to admit to bias during the jury-selection process.
Also, research indicates that information associating Muslims with negative attributes (such as terrorism) can create implicit biases that are difficult to detect with explicit measures (Park, J., Felix, K., & Lee, G. (2007). Implicit attitudes toward Arab-Muslims and the moderating effect of social information, (Basic and Applied Social Psychology, 29, 35–45). This finding suggests that people who are exposed to negative portrayals of Muslims — through the media or otherwise — might develop anti-Muslim biases that could be hard to identify during the jury-selection process. It also suggests that the prosecution’s use of negative associations during a trial might foster an implicit bias against a Muslim defendant.
Monica K. Miller, JD, PhD, et al. (2008) find that religion affects trials in different ways. More research is needed, however, to explore these effects in cases involving Islam, such as research on the impact anti-Muslim biases have on verdicts."
So the issue Mr. Snow is that in this era, its probably much more acceptable for Michael Scheuer, Ron Paul, SiiNii, or Matt Snow to make an argument like the one you did than a Muslim due to the risks of that information being misconstrued purposefully.

[Wowra]

So, do you find it more of a pervasive sentiment among the younger group that essentially came of age in the post 9/11 era, or is it throughout the community regardless of age?

Completely anecdotal (if that), I've heard of a sociological survey in the UK that ultimately asked the question "How important is being British to you?" amongst other questions. The survey supposedly revealed that those with Muslim names checked higher levels of importance to that question than most westerners.

Its a curious dynamic. But what choice do you have? Consider that you have a CENTCOM digital engagement team floating around on a message board meant to facilitate a sense of togetherness among a people spread through out the world. While it is unlawful (in America) for intelligence agencies to collect on their own population (in most cases), apparently, it would seem its completely acceptable to target the population for information operations that sound more like propaganda. This can only serve to exacerbate those "watch your mouth" sensibilities that must persist within the community.

So now that we've identified the sentiment exists, how do you think it could be theoretically corrected?

[Manzareh]

Wowra,

sooner or later there is not going be any choice, either your a patriot or a 'suspect' like George Bush put it "either your with us or your with the enemy, there is no middle ground".

My personal opinion is that a patriotic Muslims in the sense of standing by the government on the destruction of Muslim countries and such are a very small minority. These patriots you speak of must not be very educated in the Zionist systems that is being implemented (by force if necessary) around the world and specifically in the US and UK, this patriotism must only stem from a lack of education on this topic as well as social insecurities and peer pressure at school, work, etc. Im not sure about the US because I don't live there but a much larger portion of the general public seem to follow the leaders blindly, i sense a great deal of fear, this fear is directed at the populations through scare tactics/war mongering/media propaganda that has been successful in forcing the mindset of people, quite a sad time to be honest.

I can tell you now that in UK the people (non-muslims) are very sceptical about this war on terror and many have a completely different notion of what terror is and who is a terrorist, That is why i am proud of being a British citizen because I see some light and faith that the public both Muslims and non-muslims alike can stand together against injustice and work together for world peace, I don't see myself as a patriot but I don't have resentment against the country I live and people I live amongst as long as I can see a potential for change.

I was a child when 9-11 occurred but as a result of growing up around non-Muslims I have witnessed a drastic change, life before 9-11 or this "war on terror" for a Muslim or ethnic was completely different, all the brainwashing all the war mongering now is ridiculous..people are scared to disagree or stand up because now your guilty until proven innocent as a pose to being innocent until proven guilty before, all these legislations and what not, now you say anything wrong or by mistake and tomorrow youl get lifted put in jail indefinitely without even a trial, and if your innocent then its too bad your just 'collateral damage' injustice is more accepted now, after I witnessed the Boston bombing incident recently and observed how the city was at the mercy of the army with armoured vehicles patrolling the streets and soldiers busting into houses without a warrant, I can see the US turning into a full blown military dictatorship soon, some may laugh but believe me its no exaggeration.

[Wowra]

Manzareh,

Do you think perhaps the reluctance in England is more or less due to the guilt/backlash of the racism suffered by predominately Pakistanis in the late 70s and early 80s? Essentially the population was trying to rebound from their previous lapse in morality, so the feelings inspired by the 'war on terror' didn't necessarily take root there as they did in America...?

Yeah, the Boston-lockdown is a frightening excess of power exertion. No one really writes about it for being accused of a "conspiracy theorist" or a tin-foil hat type, but most people I talk to can feel the storm brewing. It no longer seems paranoid to own non-hunting type guns, but seems wise - which is a very interesting shift in perception when you think about it. I don't think America can suffer 8 more years of a government that accomplishes nothing for refusal to work together, exerts shows of force in major cities, and wages hostile actions abroad.

[Manzareh]

Manzareh,

Do you think perhaps the reluctance in England is more or less due to the guilt/backlash of the racism suffered by predominately Pakistanis in the late 70s and early 80s? Essentially the population was trying to rebound from their previous lapse in morality, so the feelings inspired by the 'war on terror' didn't necessarily take root there as they did in America...?

Yeah, the Boston-lockdown is a frightening excess of power exertion. No one really writes about it for being accused of a "conspiracy theorist" or a tin-foil hat type, but most people I talk to can feel the storm brewing. It no longer seems paranoid to own non-hunting type guns, but seems wise - which is a very interesting shift in perception when you think about it. I don't think America can suffer 8 more years of a government that accomplishes nothing for refusal to work together, exerts shows of force in major cities, and wages hostile actions abroad.

It might play a factor but I don't think its to do with guilt or backlash so much, Although racism still exists now with people and areas that don't interact or see Pakistanis/Asians often and don't have any communication with ethnic groups, they still have the weariness and stereo typical 70s/80s behaviour, but the difference now is that there are huge Pakistani/Asian areas now, whereas before their was only small secluded areas surrounded by white people that viewed Asians as aliens, 40-50 years later there's actually city's in England where white English girls casually wear traditional Pakistani dresses in public like its normal and Pakistanis/Asians no longer look, act or smell much different to westerners anymore.. there is more understanding due to the new generation growing up here and being able to communicate and remove misconceptions.

Im not sure why these 'war on terror' feelings or dilemmas have not taken root in UK as much as US, but it definitely isn't as bad or caused as much insecurity as it has in US, I say this because i remember when the terrorist bombs in London went off '7-7 bombings' some saw them as a smaller equivalent to Americas 9-11, yet the panic was subdued almost straight away, people the next day got on the trains and tubes again and went work as normal, people eventually got over it and life went on - If it happened in the US it'd most probably still be all over the news and caused catastrophic traumas indefinitely..one reason could be because US is not used to being attacked whereas UK has had its fair share of attacks in the past from the IRA and so fourth.

[abassinafghan]

Dont care about punjabis and others.

The americans and let alone the brits , are responsible for the situation in afghanistan ,to a large degree due to their politics and involvment in the last 40 /200 years. And there is also no need for playing devils advocate .

There is no need to feel any kind of gratitude ,loyaltiy or patriotism to those people or countries.

Indeed the US may be more open and tolerante to immigrants and may offer chances to you , but its not the place you belong .

Its funny to hear people regard themself parts of the usa or gb and talk about quams in a way which is not only rediculous but also some kind of bizzare ethno pride , like wearing feathers and dancing arround totems .

If your born in those countries than because your parents had the chance to flee poverty and/or the war .

But someday we will all return to our promised land .

[torkham]

Dont care about punjabis and others.

The americans and let alone the brits , are responsible for the situation in afghanistan ,to a large degree due to their politics and involvment in the last 40 /200 years. And there is also no need for playing devils advocate .

There is no need to feel any kind of gratitude ,loyaltiy or patriotism to those people or countries.

Indeed the US may be more open and tolerante to immigrants and may offer chances to you , but its not the place you belong .

Its funny to hear people regard themself parts of the usa or gb and talk about quams in a way which is not only rediculous but also some kind of bizzare ethno pride , like wearing feathers and dancing arround totems .

If your born in those countries than because your parents had the chance to flee poverty and/or the war .

But someday we will all return to our promised land .

I agree with 'there is no need for any gratitude......'. I studied/worked in uk and germany and remained aloof in terms of my origins and ethnic identity despite the fact I did much better than many people i interacted with - more educated, successful in employment, better command of their language and and culture - which would make me, supposedly an ideal candidate for being one of them (ironically many who become citizens of western country such as UK are least integrated, linguistically challenged, culturally unaware, because they have been brought in as a husband or wife, or managed to slip in a container or a boat full of refugees or simply got in, over stayed, got pardoned and become legalised). Fortunately, in my opinion, i remained an afghan openly, i talked about the misunderstanding of our kandari 'student' brethren, i tried to justify their stances and explain their controversies. No apologetics, no gratitude, just let them accept me for who i was and what i was doing in their country.

I did feel at times, in moments when brainwashing was getting better of my judgement, that i went to their country, gained education and experience and what have i returned to their society - i realised that i had to look at the 'give and take' at a longer time scale, at a broader angle than narrow blinkered vista, that what i was taking now is part of what has been taken form me (my country) long ago. So i began thinking long term rather than short term, because these processes, these projects are looong term.

What i fail to mention, most of you guys are so in tune with identity and right and wrong, i am ashamed to admit how ignorant i was at your ages ((assuming most of you are (25+/-5)years old)), i got brain washed inititally, but thankfully i learned in the nick of time to do something about it - I high-tailed out of the west before i became a coconut aping the west believing their ways are saviour and we are barbaric.

Dont apologise, walking like a stepping razor, be ready to cut em up - with intellect of course.

[Wowra]

Abas,

If they did not take pride in qawms, would they not become cuckholded? Should they just ignore the greater familial tied because either their parents or they left? Is there some form of shame they ought to feel? I think that's a little ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with knowing the origins of your blood and having the where-with-all to pass it down to your children - regardless of where they are in proximity to the origins of that blood.

Torkham,

Whether you liked it or not, you experienced a lasting cultural diffusion that you'll never recover from. Its what happens when cultures collide, and is a positive thing. Without it, you'll never grow. Congratulations, andewal.

The original intent of this thread wasn't necessarily to champion or validate patriotism, but explain the hyper existence in those countries as a result of the past decade and sort of come up with correlations and counter-arguments. Torkham, were you in the west post-2001? If not, do you think you would have been as open about the explanation of TB in public - not because you aren't entitled to your opinions, but because of how those opinions may be misinterpreted?

[abassinafghan]

@wrora

Its one thing if you know who you are where you come from and who your father and grandfather is .

But it makes no sence if you define yourself over your qaum and push it to really strange forms of tribalism , but at the same time deny your identy as an afghan . Or proclaiming being citizen or part of a western country .

When i read some post here ,about dna , obscure theories about origins and supposedly "importance " to which qaum this or that person belong and than putting it in a political context it leads to real obscure results . Especially if you notice that people make something out of it which it is not .

[Wowra]

Abas,

Maybe that's the most telling point. I don't think the people that identify themselves by qawm necessarily define themselves by qawm, nor do I think that it is contradictory to identify yourself as such, but also have citizenship in a western country. Being Hotik is just as important to that 18 year old kid in Manchester as much as being Mohmin is to that girl that's been sold in to the sex trade turning tricks in Dubai. It gives them a sense of identity in an alien place. Now, does it mean the same thing as say when a Salarzai meets a Mujwanee in Asadabad and he thinks to himself: "Tarkani had five sons in the late 1800s but bequeathed all his land and money to Mujwanee so ever since my qawm has gotten the short end of the stick?" No, it doesn't mean that to an Afghan living in the west. But what it does mean is a shred of identity he can hold on to, pass on to his kids, meet people with, and possibly feel less alone in the world. For that, you shouldn't condemn anyone.

For conversation's sake, andewal - com qawm ye? De komzi na wragalay?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Dont care about punjabis and others.

The americans and let alone the brits , are responsible for the situation in afghanistan ,to a large degree due to their politics and involvment in the last 40 /200 years. And there is also no need for playing devils advocate .

There is no need to feel any kind of gratitude ,loyaltiy or patriotism to those people or countries.

Indeed the US may be more open and tolerante to immigrants and may offer chances to you , but its not the place you belong .

Its funny to hear people regard themself parts of the usa or gb and talk about quams in a way which is not only rediculous but also some kind of bizzare ethno pride , like wearing feathers and dancing arround totems .

If your born in those countries than because your parents had the chance to flee poverty and/or the war .

But someday we will all return to our promised land .

I agree with you on a lot of what you said but what I think happens when you live abroad and interact with people of diverse backgrounds is you see their common humanity. You see that average people with their own cultural ideals are present in so many places. Perhaps its not patriotism the way that people define it (i.e. flag waving and painting the face red white and blue) but rather an understanding that develops about the sick nature of world leaders and the elites. Many of these rural Americans and soldiers are very simple and want to do the same things that Afghans do (provide shelter and education for their loved ones, live a relatively stable life, etc). Their political understanding is very basic.

Let me put it simply: I think a patriot is someone who can inform the masses that they are being used as tools to murder and kill eachother. Some normal kid named Ben in a small town here should be left to live his life and enjoy his own prosperity without having to go and kill Yusuf in Afghanistan for the benefit of a few small elite groups in power and various motivated interest groups.

It is interesting how right you are though. Back when the Red man was still in high enough populations in the US some of their tribal leaders were fiercely independent and wanted to make a stand against colonial invasion. Others decided to make trade deals against their adversary tribes. Eventually they were forced into Christianity and made to live in places called prayer towns and had their names changed and their hair cut and their clothes changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praying_town

Eventually many of these Indians were still killed in the prayer towns even though they changed their customs, ethics, identity etc. This means people can try their best to paint their face and do a bunch of parading around as if they were a "patriot" but even then, history shows they will not be accepted except by their own.

In this information age though - it should not be hard for bright people to convey a message to citizens world round to resist war mongering. Then I think a person is an Afghan, German, Dutch, American etc patriot because they are trying to save two lives with one message - the life of the American and the life of the Afghan.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

So, do you find it more of a pervasive sentiment among the younger group that essentially came of age in the post 9/11 era, or is it throughout the community regardless of age?

Completely anecdotal (if that), I've heard of a sociological survey in the UK that ultimately asked the question "How important is being British to you?" amongst other questions. The survey supposedly revealed that those with Muslim names checked higher levels of importance to that question than most westerners.

Its a curious dynamic. But what choice do you have? Consider that you have a CENTCOM digital engagement team floating around on a message board meant to facilitate a sense of togetherness among a people spread through out the world. While it is unlawful (in America) for intelligence agencies to collect on their own population (in most cases), apparently, it would seem its completely acceptable to target the population for information operations that sound more like propaganda. This can only serve to exacerbate those "watch your mouth" sensibilities that must persist within the community.

So now that we've identified the sentiment exists, how do you think it could be theoretically corrected?

Mr. Snow despite my idealism I dont know if it is correctable.

There are two historical examples that may suffice to show that human nature often does not overcome these obstacles of fearing the other in a time of war and distress.

Read on Hannibal Barqah's assault on Rome and Simon Bar Kokhba's revolts. These are great examples of how historically, folks dont think about why their nations find themselves in turmoil. In the former case, hannibal was extremely motivated by Roman transgressions against Carthage and in the latter case Bar Kokhba foolishly thought he had the will and resolve of his people to overcome Roman occupation in Judea. The jews were subsequently in a worse off situation than ever before. And Hannibal ended up fleeing to the ends of the Earth after Rome found itself nearly at his mercy and prevailed. At no point did Romans try to understand how burning Carthage to the ground might have created the ripe environment for these savage conflicts. They didnt care they just told their children horror stories about Hannibal being an evil monster under their bed.

It is ever so rare that the denizens of a greater power overcome the hubris that is required to understand what sort of trifles and major conflicts their empire is being pulled into. And it is equally ever so rare for the weak peoples to overcome their differences and unit in the necessary way to balance the aggression of a greater power (refer to Bar Kohkhba's failure above, the failure of Tecumseh the Brave who was opposed by important tribal leaders, and also of Vercingetorix's loss of Gaul to Caesar).

What I am saying is that destiny marches on. The only spoiler may be the technology that connects us all now and enables rapid exchanges of ideas in a way that might allow for information conveyence. Despite this, note that a huge portion of the population makes decisions based on emotion and not logic. Therefore, if someone doesnt like a particular group they will take even more influx of information and pick and choose what information they like to hear in order to re-enforce their opinion as opposed to using information like data to allow data to guide the formulation of a hypothesis.

I think the burden is on the shoulders of you, Ron Paul, SiiNii, Scheuer, Paul Pillar, Hagel, et al to speak out. We are a hated and feared minority at this point and the kinship biology tends to prevail more often than not. That is, it will be ever so rare that someone risks their own livelihood to tell the truth if it benefits another kinship group as this is almost an innate biology.

Think of it like this... it is population dynamics. Malcolm X could speak forcefully and not have as much fear because african americans were a huge part of the US population and to needle the bee hive too much would create internal instability that was not amenable to the stability we are used to in the US. Muslims on the other hand are less than 1% of the American population. Informed Muslims are probably 1/8 of that. Just as informed Vietnemese could not stop the last war and it took John Lennon and others to lead that movement (ie. members of the majority race) - the onus of stopping our trajectory towards empire and toward these continued conflicts rests on your shoulders my friend. We American Muslims are in a tight spot right now and have no choice but to understand the mathematical and biological odds do not favor us saying much of anything. All we can do is point out colleauges in a direction of other white anglo protestant colleagues like Scheuer who are experienced and want to extricate and educate their compatriots. And the rest of what we can do is to point our Muslim compatriots away from violence against others that only allows these elites to use excuses to continue war plundering.

Tis a bleak state of affairs my new friend.

[Shah-i-Kot]

"master sick, we sick" LOL sums up American Muslims for you, and also that Jews are responsible for all the worlds problems including all the wars, economic problems, gas prices, etc.

Dont know if this applies to British Muslims.

[SiiNii]

"master sick, we sick" LOL sums up American Muslims for you, and also that Jews are responsible for all the worlds problems including all the wars, economic problems, gas prices, etc.

Dont know if this applies to British Muslims.

Now this is quite an assertion, do you have anything to support this? I'm most interested in how Jews are making me pay more for gas, around here its 'Christian' White guys that own the oil and energy companies and Muslim Pakistanis who run the gas stations.