Protest against taliban turns deadly

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Khushala, why would the ANA, for no reason, turn fire on Afghan civilians? Lets suppose it did happen, do you agree that there exists a chance that some 'unknown' element funded by a foreigner, were dressed like ANA caused this? What gives you the right to speak in a deterministic manner that it was an official ANA soldier who decided to kill his own folks?

So I am sorry Admin, but based on what I posed above, the Atlantic has CLEAR INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence of Razeq and his Kandahar Karzai cronies of using the Pakistani canard to MURDER innocent people and then claim they were Pakistani and Taliban. It was a legit ground level investigation.

And so I ask you then, what gives you the right to cover up for the ANA and Razeq and Karzai and to basically ask us to stretch the limits of evidence based approaches and try to make up something about Pakistani groups infiltrating a rally and donning ANA attire to stage this elaborate ruse.

We demonstrated in a clear cogent way that Razeq who was one of the main feeders for supposed Pakistani infiltrators in a Pakistani protest story in Maiwand and that the Afghan governmental official himself was the feeder to CNN.

Mike Semple clearly showed discrepencies in Razeq and the local authorities stories when they murdered Kandahari Nurzai tribesman in a badal manner (including a young boy) and how he used this "Paki" accusation to cover his tracks.

And we HAVE CLEAR PROOF THAT RAZEQ made this accusation this time as well:
"Kandahar Provincial Police Chief Gen. Abdul Raziq said Taliban insurgents had infiltrated the demonstration."


And in the Huff Po article, you, Admin Khan are asked to believe Razeq, a proven liar versus an innocent bystander and man on the ground of rural Afghanistan, Mr. Abdul Qayyum who stated in NO UNCERTAIN Terms:

""The local people of Maiwand district are so upset and unhappy with the government and the foreigners because they are conducting night raids on the houses of local people," he said. "With no reason, they are entering local houses and doing whatever they want. We don't want all these things to keep happening to us.""

"there were no Taliban among the protesters."

So I am sorry, but one evidence based approaches, I refuse to throw Abdul Qayyam of Loya Kandahar under the bus in order to make up some link to Pakistan to justify shooting at him.

And I am sure Mike Semple would also place his confidennce in Abdul Qayyum as he did in the Shin Nurzai murder case.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Absolutely, Afghans should learn from their past mistakes and know that they can not trust anyone, and should apply every permutation permissible to a situation in order to ensure efficient governance. Knowing the fact that Pakistan specifically had told the USA to NOTbuild Afghanistan an armed force is an automatic weight contributed to each event, since we are already aware of Pakistan's nefarious activities. Afghanistan should always aim for brotherly relations, but when a bomb blast occurs, all permutations of possibilities must be thought through carefully in order to prevent such sadness for the future. Karzai is a puppet, there is no denial in that, he too should be scrutinized and peaceful protests should occur requesting him to either

A)Prove his allegiance to the Afghan nation
B)Step down and resign.

We have learned from our basic probability class that such mere possibilities that you mentioned, i.e Karzai aims, can very well be a possibility, and you might have some evidence to show for it(I haven't checked it) and we also have concrete evidence for Pakistan's imperalistic ambitions, i.e A)Exporting terrorism B)Specifically requesting the USA to not build an Afghan military(perhaps it doesn't want its 5th province armed?).


I agree with you, and don't see how this pertains to the discussion. The Karzai government is as corrupt as any other institution of Afghanistan.

BA, what makes you think I disagree with what you wrote above? I don't get it. I agree with the above, and have absolutely no clue as to how this pertains to the point I was trying to make.[/QUOTE]

Sorry Admin,

My assumption, and I may be wrong, is that you were saying that Khushal and I should try and at least entertain the notion that Pakistani infiltrators donned Afghan uniforms and fired into a crowd which was also interspersed with Pakistani infiltrators at a peaceful anti Pakistan protest.

It sounds like you werent, so I apologise... but I really think that the murder of innocent Kandaharis by the hand of the ANA needs to be highlighted here without any evidence to the contrary.

I believe I have given a clear series of references showing beyond a doubt that Razeq leaked the qoute about this being an anti Pakistan protest (which it was NOT) and about how the ANA shot at Pakistani infiltrators (which they did NOT).

The bottom line is clear: ANA soldiers murdered people in Kandahar and now the Afghan government ala Razeq is trying to divert blame to pakistan.

[Admin Khan]

So I am sorry Admin, but based on what I posed above, the Atlantic has CLEAR INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence of Razeq and his Kandahar Karzai cronies of using the Pakistani canard to MURDER innocent people and then claim they were Pakistani and Taliban. It was a legit ground level investigation.

As Engineers, we are taught better. Firstly, no need for apologies, we are grown men wrestling intellectually, at least I hope. Secondly, no denial that Razeq, and his gang, along with similar folks in other provinces, based on reports and eye-witnesses, engage in torture, killing of civilians, and in fact, based on my connects, there was even a time where one of the current officials(again, based on what I have heard, this could be true)had married a young boy of age 9, so as you can imagine, I condemn those folks you mentioned in terms you can't even perhaps fathom. However, let's not let this divert the attention from the main issue, which is that aside from corrupt folks conducting attacks, and blaming it on Pakistan(Hey, blaming everything on ISI, when you screw up, is pretty easy right?), Pakistan itself is also involved in a huge portion of attacks in Afghanistan, directly or indirectly. Like I mentioned before, with clear evidence, Pakistan[Gen Kayani] even went as far as requesting the USA to not build Afghanistan an armed force, let alone their support for insurgents to cause bloodshed at their convenience. It is a known fact that a weak, unstable Afghanistan is in their strategic interest, which they expect to achieve by strategic depth. Knowing that there exists an insurgency, trained by their spy agency, is not wrong to keep a PERMUTATION that Pakistan could be involved in an attack, however we don't have a right to claim it was Pakistan without offering evidence, since for all we know it was the Mossad[an assumption] causing keeping Muslims busy as usual by killing each other.

Let's learn from the USA, when the officer was assassinated near MIT's campus, no stone was left unturned, no one said "Well, because Mr.Robson is corrupt in North Carolina, perhaps he did it again". No, Robson and several other permutations of possibilities were considered. Similarly, it is NOT a utopian concept to think Pakistan is behind attacks in Afghanistan. Like I told Khushal, lets suppose we condemn NATO for giving Pakistan the checkpost, why is Pakistan building more of them, why is it rebuilding those damaged? Clearly the design is something we as Engineers need to worry about, and if I find it hypocritical to condemn NATO, yet not condemn Pakistan. That is silly, and pathetic if you ask me. Anybody who cheats the Afghan nation should be condemned.

And so I ask you then, what gives you the right to cover up for the ANA

This is a false accusation BA, I never covered up for the ANA, but have in reverse condemned them along with the Banana Republic for inefficiently handling certain situations. I said, there could be a POSSIBILITY, based on the past, that insurgents dressed up as ANA officials could have launched the attack. A cover up would be "Hi PF, no, this was not an ANA official, it was a Talib". You see the difference? I, am leaving all options on the table, that is different than asserting and covering up, I hope you see the clear and concise difference.

and Razeq and Karzai and to basically ask us to stretch the limits of evidence based approaches and try to make up something about Pakistani groups infiltrating a rally and donning ANA attire to stage this elaborate ruse.

We demonstrated in a clear cogent way that Razeq who was one of the main feeders for supposed Pakistani infiltrators in a Pakistani protest story in Maiwand and that the Afghan governmental official himself was the feeder to CNN.

Mike Semple clearly showed discrepencies in Razeq and the local authorities stories when they murdered Kandahari Nurzai tribesman in a badal manner (including a young boy) and how he used this "Paki" accusation to cover his tracks.

And we HAVE CLEAR PROOF THAT RAZEQ made this accusation this time as well:
"Kandahar Provincial Police Chief Gen. Abdul Raziq said Taliban insurgents had infiltrated the demonstration."


And in the Huff Po article, you, Admin Khan are asked to believe Razeq, a proven liar versus an innocent bystander and man on the ground of rural Afghanistan, Mr. Abdul Qayyum who stated in NO UNCERTAIN Terms:

""The local people of Maiwand district are so upset and unhappy with the government and the foreigners because they are conducting night raids on the houses of local people," he said. "With no reason, they are entering local houses and doing whatever they want. We don't want all these things to keep happening to us.""

"there were no Taliban among the protesters."

So I am sorry, but one evidence based approaches, I refuse to throw Abdul Qayyam of Loya Kandahar under the bus in order to make up some link to Pakistan to justify shooting at him.

And I am sure Mike Semple would also place his confidennce in Abdul Qayyum as he did in the Shin Nurzai murder case.

Razeq should be unequivocally condemned, if proper evidence exists. Simple as that, no one(from what I can see) is supporting him.

[Admin Khan]

BA, what makes you think I disagree with what you wrote above? I don't get it. I agree with the above, and have absolutely no clue as to how this pertains to the point I was trying to make.

Sorry Admin,

My assumption, and I may be wrong, is that you were saying that Khushal and I should try and at least entertain the notion that Pakistani infiltrators donned Afghan uniforms and fired into a crowd which was also interspersed with Pakistani infiltrators at a peaceful anti Pakistan protest.

It sounds like you werent, so I apologise... but I really think that the murder of innocent Kandaharis by the hand of the ANA needs to be highlighted here without any evidence to the contrary.

I believe I have given a clear series of references showing beyond a doubt that Razeq leaked the qoute about this being an anti Pakistan protest (which it was NOT) and about how the ANA shot at Pakistani infiltrators (which they did NOT).

The bottom line is clear: ANA soldiers murdered people in Kandahar and now the Afghan government ala Razeq is trying to divert blame to pakistan.

No need to apologize. As a Kandahari BA, I would know how non-Pashto speaking speak ANA officers treat Kandaharis, in fact, most that are deployed in Kandahar speak Farsi, and force the locals to speak with them in Farsi, due to lack of Pashtun officers. However, we need to work on a solution and how to improve the current situation, that was the core of the discussion that I was trying to have. I am very well aware of what you said, and the obvious cover ups, and how they act and behave. I really have no clue how the discussion ended here, and I must say I am a bit frustrating/disappointing with the assumptions being made around without anyone first understanding what I am trying to say.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

No need to apologize. As a Kandahari BA, I would know how non-Pashto speaking speak ANA officers treat Kandaharis, in fact, most that are deployed in Kandahar speak Farsi, and force the locals to speak with them in Farsi, due to lack of Pashtun officers. However, we need to work on a solution and how to improve the current situation, that was the core of the discussion that I was trying to have. I am very well aware of what you said, and the obvious cover ups, and how they act and behave. I really have no clue how the discussion ended here, and I must say I am a bit frustrating/disappointing with the assumptions being made around without anyone first understanding what I am trying to say.

Yes, but Admin, this whole thread is based upon a report posted by Ariana which was to try and depict the following:

1) An anti pakistan protest was occuring in Maiwand

We have shown that such was not the case ala Huff Po. It was anti NATO and anti ANA punishing them in the wake of past abuse and the recent death of US soldiers. Mr. Qayyum, at the rally confirms this.

2) Pakistani irregulars were interspersed in the crowd

This accusation, per the Huff Post article emanates from Razeq and the Ariana posted article emanates from an Afghan governmental statement in tow with Razeq's narrative. Razeq has done this in the past per Semple's report submitted to the Kabul government and has killed innocents using it.

3) There is not an iota of evidence then that the ANA officers had insiders amongst them as to date insiders have attacked either ANA or NATO troops and not fired indiscriminantly into the crowds (especially of protestors supporting their cause).

So I think this whole thread is rather foolish as it pretty much uses the death of innocent Qandaharis as fodder for spin to somehow prove the Kabul Karzai technocrat spin that the whole insurgency is Pakistanicentric and therefore "all good Afghan sheep" ought do their best to avenge these innocents killed by pakistanis.

[Admin Khan]

Yes, but Admin, this whole thread is based upon a report posted by Ariana which was to try and depict the following:

1) An anti pakistan protest was occuring in Maiwand

Based on what I've read, and understandably it would make sense, there were some anti-Pakistani protests in Kandahar, which would logically make sense, and I would expect more to follow since just today, Pakistan built new check posts in Kunar province, and since we already have evidence that Afghans are protesting against Pakistan in Kabul, Nangarhar, it would not appear utopian to assume Kandaharis also protested. Now the question is whether or not this SPECIFIC protest was against Pakistan, that is an open question, although I could also imagine Kandaharis protesting against NATO as well, along with the provincial government for their lack of focus on the main problems revolving around Kandaharis.

I am curious to know, and would confess that I am scratching my head, trying to figure out why an Afghan police officer would all of a sudden decide to kill innocent protestors, power-trip? Something we aren't aware of YET, as you can see, this too is open to interpretation. The best thing we can do and hope for is a proper probe into the incident. Assuming they were Pakistani agents is just as wrong as assuming they were NOT Pakistani agents, especially knowing the intentions of our neighbors. It's not like Afghanistan is a Canada, and know it is blaming the US for an incident, which might sound weird since the two have good relations. It's an open fact that Pakistan has been meddling in Afghan affairs, through various channels, and this is an open question. However, I condemn those reaching conclusions, without evidence. You are in no position, to claim there was no foreign elements involved, I am in no position to assume there were foreign elements involved.

I see two possibilities here:

A)Foreign involvement(lesser chance)
B)Cover up(Bigger chance, perhaps a nuts soldier felt 'disrespected' and decided to use his new shiny toy.

The two permutations above are my opinion, perhaps you have another possibility.

We have shown that such was not the case ala Huff Po. It was anti NATO and anti ANA punishing them in the wake of past abuse and the recent death of US soldiers. Mr. Qayyum, at the rally confirms this.

2) Pakistani irregulars were interspersed in the crowd

This accusation, per the Huff Post article emanates from Razeq and the Ariana posted article emanates from an Afghan governmental statement in tow with Razeq's narrative. Razeq has done this in the past per Semple's report submitted to the Kabul government and has killed innocents using it.

3) There is not an iota of evidence then that the ANA officers had insiders amongst them as to date insiders have attacked either ANA or NATO troops and not fired indiscriminantly into the crowds (especially of protestors supporting their cause).

The Huff might reported that, which I don't deny, but 10x the number of sources report that were also anti-Pakistani protests in Kandahar.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Based on what I've read, and understandably it would make sense, there were some anti-Pakistani protests in Kandahar, which would logically make sense, and I would expect more to follow since just today, Pakistan built new check posts in Kunar province, and since we already have evidence that Afghans are protesting against Pakistan in Kabul, Nangarhar, it would not appear utopian to assume Kandaharis also protested. Now the question is whether or not this SPECIFIC protest was against Pakistan, that is an open question, although I could also imagine Kandaharis protesting against NATO as well, along with the provincial government for their lack of focus on the main problems revolving around Kandaharis.

I am curious to know, and would confess that I am scratching my head, trying to figure out why an Afghan police officer would all of a sudden decide to kill innocent protestors, power-trip? Something we aren't aware of YET, as you can see, this too is open to interpretation. The best thing we can do and hope for is a proper probe into the incident. Assuming they were Pakistani agents is just as wrong as assuming they were NOT Pakistani agents, especially knowing the intentions of our neighbors. It's not like Afghanistan is a Canada, and know it is blaming the US for an incident, which might sound weird since the two have good relations. It's an open fact that Pakistan has been meddling in Afghan affairs, through various channels, and this is an open question. However, I condemn those reaching conclusions, without evidence. You are in no position, to claim there was no foreign elements involved, I am in no position to assume there were foreign elements involved.

I see two possibilities here:

A)Foreign involvement(lesser chance)
B)Cover up(Bigger chance, perhaps a nuts soldier felt 'disrespected' and decided to use his new shiny toy.

The two permutations above are my opinion, perhaps you have another possibility.



The Huff might reported that, which I don't deny, but 10x the number of sources report that were also anti-Pakistani protests in Kandahar.

The maiwand protest specifically was noted, by all ground sources like Mr Abdul Qayyum, to be against the roughery they were experiencing. It was not a Pro or anti Taliban demonstration... it was Maiwand folks expressing dissatisfaction for their treatment they were afforded when the general theme of "Maiwand is doing great" was debunked with the recent spate of anticoalition deaths there.

I have to this point tracked down 10 articles regarding the anti pakistan protest version and they all trace to "governmental spokesman" or "razeq."

and we have without a doubt shown that Razeq controls that state apparatus in the area and that these "spokesman" have consistently parroted his lines.

To answer your question as to why Afghan police and ANA would fire into the crowed... its for teh same reason they would harm innocent civilians in Wardag... that is what mercenaries do. Pakistani military uniformed regulars shoot their own people too. The villagers likely expressedd dissatisfaction at heavy handed tactics and were punished in the same way these thugs and warlords punished their people before.

[Admin Khan]

The maiwand protest specifically was noted, by all ground sources like Mr Abdul Qayyum, to be against the roughery they were experiencing. It was not a Pro or anti Taliban demonstration... it was Maiwand folks expressing dissatisfaction for their treatment they were afforded when the general theme of "Maiwand is doing great" was debunked with the recent spate of anticoalition deaths there.

I have to this point tracked down 10 articles regarding the anti pakistan protest version and they all trace to "governmental spokesman" or "razeq."

and we have without a doubt shown that Razeq controls that state apparatus in the area and that these "spokesman" have consistently parroted his lines.

To answer your question as to why Afghan police and ANA would fire into the crowed... its for teh same reason they would harm innocent civilians in Wardag... that is what mercenaries do. Pakistani military uniformed regulars shoot their own people too. The villagers likely expressedd dissatisfaction at heavy handed tactics and were punished in the same way these thugs and warlords punished their people before.

BA, did you realize that in my post I said I too agree with the assessment that the folks were simply tired of what was going on, I clearly said this is the likely event. Am I not making sense today or am I not being clear?

[khushal]

10x the number of sources report that were also anti-Pakistani protests in Kandahar.

^^those sources only quote the criminal Raziq, so we all know the guy is an oracle of truth. lol

[Admin Khan]

^^those sources only quote the criminal Raziq, so we all know the guy is an oracle of truth. lol

Here comes a rumor(I have heard this from Speen-zheri of Kandahar), that he once tried to marry a young boy. They even had a wedding festival. This is an open-secret in Kandahar.

Again, I don't want this theory to be attributed with me, but just about every Kandahari(whose age is >40)knows this. Khushal, Kandahar has far more competent folks to take over his position.

[khushal]

Here comes a rumor(I have heard this from Speen-zheri of Kandahar), that he once tried to marry a young boy. They even had a wedding festival. This is an open-secret in Kandahar.

Again, I don't want this theory to be attributed with me, but just about every Kandahari(whose age is >40)knows this. Khushal, Kandahar has far more competent folks to take over his position.

I don't doubt that for a moment but its the US that have put him where he is.
This is interesting:
The Nemesis List: Abdul Raziq

Most Despicable Moment: According to tribal elders, human-rights workers, police officers and government officials, as well as information and photos from a suppressed police investigation uncovered by the Atlantic, in March 2006, Raziq’s underlings lured presumed drug smuggler Shin Noorzai and 15 companions to a party house in Kabul. The men were drugged, bound and delivered 500 kilometers south to Raziq, in Kandahar province. The captives, hands tied, were massacred at close range with automatic weapons. Raziq reported to the Associated Press that 15 Taliban fighters crossing over from Pakistan, led by “Taliban commander Mullah Shin,” had been intercepted and defeated in a gun battle. Raziq and Shin’s respective tribes had been feuding over smuggling routes

American Blowback: The Leahy Amendment, a 1997 U.S. law, forbids State Department or Defense Department assistance to foreign military units that have committed human-rights violations

America’s Raziq Rationalization: “For us,” Ben Moeling, America’s director of Kandahar provincial reconstruction, told the Atlantic’s Matthieu Akins, “trying to see the negative doesn’t really get us anywhere.”

That last quote of Ben Moiling, Admin khana, is what you and mostafa is telling us. no disrespect intended.

[Joey_Gladstonezai]

Nato probes charges of misconduct in Afghanistan

Afghan police were accused of killing eight protesters at a demonstration on Wednesday as the U.S.-led coalition said it had opened an investigation into allegations of misconduct by NATO troops during an encounter with insurgents.
Both incidents occurred in southern Afghanistan where violence has escalated in recent weeks following a Taliban announcement launching the start of its spring offensive.
Villagers in the town of Maiwand said Afghan police opened fire on hundreds of demonstrators who were protesting raids that Afghan and NATO forces conducted in their village of Loye Karez two days earlier.
Accounts differed as to whether the eight killed were unarmed protesters or militants. Ten other people were wounded.
Kandahar Provincial Police Chief Gen. Abdul Raziq said Taliban insurgents had infiltrated the demonstration.
Abdul Qayyum, a 45-year-old demonstrator, disputed that, telling The Associated Press by phone that "there were no Taliban among the protesters."
"The local people of Maiwand district are so upset and unhappy with the government and the foreigners because they are conducting night raids on the houses of local people," he said. "With no reason, they are entering local houses and doing whatever they want. We don't want all these things to keep happening to us."
In the past, Afghan President Hamid Karzai has bitterly criticized raids on village homes, particularly those carried out during the night.
In a separate incident, the NATO-led force said Wednesday that it had launched an investigation into allegations of misconduct following an internal report into an April 28 encounter with insurgents in Zabul province.
The statement did not offer more details and Lt. Tamarac Dyer, a spokeswoman for the coalition, told the AP in an email that "this is the only information we are able to release at this time due to the ongoing investigation."
Afghan officials were not immediately available for comment.
The statement quoted U.S. Gen. Joseph Dunford, the top commander of NATO and U.S. troops in Afghanistan, as saying that the alliance takes "all allegations of misconduct by our personnel very seriously." He pledged to "fully investigate the incident and keep the Afghan government informed."
Elsewhere in southern Afghanistan, three people were killed when their vehicle triggered an explosive device in Lashkar Gah, the capital of Helmand province. Another six people were injured, said Shamim Noorzai, the provincial police chief spokesman.
Afghan security officials say improvised explosive devises, or IEDs, and suicide attacks present the greatest challenges for Afghan security forces in the battle against Taliban.
"They can't fight us face to face," Raziq said in a recent interview with the AP.
Also on Wednesday, the Afghan intelligence service said it arrested an Afghan national who confessed to having been sent by the Taliban to carry out a suicide bombing against Abdullah Abdullah, a presidential candidate in the 2009 election and the head of an opposition party called the National Coalition of Afghanistan.
It showed a video of the alleged would-be bomber whom the intelligence service said was arrested while scouting out Abdullah's headquarters. The intelligence service, the National Directorate of Security said Abdullah and another member of the opposition party, Ahmed Zia Masoud, were the intended targets.
Fazal Sangcharaki, a spokesman for Abdullah Abdullah, said the strident anti-Taliban leader has had many threats in the past, but "unfortunately the NDS has not informed us about this arrest and this particular threat."
___
Khan reported from Kandahar. AP writers Rahim Faiez and Amir Shah in Kabul contributed to the report. Kathy Gannon, AP special regional correspondent for Afghanistan and Pakistan, can be followed at http://www.twitter.com/kathygannon