Protests against Pakistani invasion and their post shown destroyed!!

[Admin Khan]

I really appreciate your prior commentary on visits to the region and the use of various forces between tribal groupings.

To help you on your search I can refer you to some earlier posts that were extremely unpopular here. Perhaps because I refuse to play make believe or suspend belief on how folks respond to instigation. My next post will follow up with that information.

A few basic questions that any independent party would need to identify

1) Where exactly are these posts relative to the durand line?
2) Tolo news identified the exchange from the Americans to the Pakistanis (or ISAF to Pakistanis)... if so... why did this occur without Afghan governmental consent? Here is the article from Tolo in which the Afghan MINISTER says it took place:
Afghan Govt Moves to End Pakistan Border Gate

Quoted is Mr. Minister of the Interior himself. Perhaps PF needs to write him and ask him to furnish more information.
3) If these posts lie on Pakistani soil - what then? The Afghan government does not recognize the durand line, but Pakistan insists on it.

To date, we have no independent or even Pakistani source commenting on these border gate locations and a map.

What we do know for sure from all sources is that Pakistan is indiscriminantly shelling into kunar and other places which is a human rights violation and perhaps Kiyani ought to be taken to the Hague for it.

BA,
Some sources reported that a couple of the posts are 40KM in Afghan territory, beyond the 0 line, and there are images showing the posts being constructed, and already built. One can NOT reach conclusions, however, that wasn't even the point. The point is, when there is a dispute, you try to resolve it rather than worsening the condition. When one begins to point fingers to the US, and refusing to criticize Pakistan, which again, for the 3rd time, just yesterday built new posts in Kunar[aside from consistently building those posts brought down, and giving out ID cards to the residents of Goshta district], it is like I said:

You criticize both ISAF(if it indeed gave the post to Pakistan), and you criticize Pakistan as well for not only repairing what was brought down, but going as far as building new posts. My approach is very simple to people, and rather logical, either condemn anyone who cheats Afghanistan, or keep it shut and hide back in your hole. One can't say the US the only invader, while Iran is doing whatever it can to stop the Salma Damn, or while Pakistan is busy building checkposts within Afghan territory, along with other acts of unreserved condemnations.

If you are of the opinion that you want concrete western sources, and you don't take the words of Speenzheri and tribal elders who have been interviewed by video, claiming what I said, then one might as well not criticize the US either since most of the claims, in particular how they handed the base down to Pakistan, is unverified as well.

[khushal]

Wowra, I am of the opinion that if the coalition forces gave Afghan land to foreigners they should be condemned and brought before the U.N, in short, just about every legal exercise should be executed. However, what wiggles my tails is when Afghans are fed this 'You are occupied' logic by Pakistan, meanwhile they are involved in occupying Afghan land as I type this. Why selective criticism? Why selective condemnation? In no way am I defending the NATO(if they indeed did what is claimed they did, so far no evidence), I am just against folks who see things in a Black and white manner. Recognize that aside from Nangarhar, Pakistan just built NEW POSTS in Kunar. Who gave those to Pakistan this time? Why is the USA, so to speak, the ONLY invader? Pakistan and Iran has been robbing Afghanistan for decades in ways not even imaginable.

^^When the confirmed liar and murderer like Kandahar police chief raziq makes a statement about him shooting at unarmed protesters, you want proof that he is lying. When Karzai himself and the afghan senate speaker Afghan Senate Fazl Hadi Muslimyar makes a statement that confirms the US built and gave those posts to the paksitani military, Now you want proof that the afghan senate speaker is telling the truth.
Senate Speaker Lashes Out at Foreign Troops Over Border Posts

I don't understand you Admin khana.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA,
Some sources reported that a couple of the posts are 40KM in Afghan territory, beyond the 0 line, and there are images showing the posts being constructed, and already built.


I read the same sources and they are Afghan media outlet reports

One can NOT reach conclusions, however, that wasn't even the point. The point is, when there is a dispute, you try to resolve it rather than worsening the condition.

I ardently agree... but as you mentioned regarding all possible permutations - its best to consider that the repeated accusations come from Karzai and his officials in the Afghan media. I just created a thread for Wowra about the new Yale paper detailing the complicated history in which such tactics were also used by past Afghan governments

When one begins to point fingers to the US, and refusing to criticize Pakistan, which again, for the 3rd time, just yesterday built new posts in Kunar[aside from consistently building those posts brought down, and giving out ID cards to the residents of Goshta district], it is like I said:

You criticize both ISAF(if it indeed gave the post to Pakistan), and you criticize Pakistan as well for not only repairing what was brought down, but going as far as building new posts.

I would criticize ISAF if it is indeed confirmed that they gave posts on Afghan land to Pakistani unformed regulars or even tribals

My approach is very simple to people, and rather logical, either condemn anyone who cheats Afghanistan, or keep it shut and hide back in your hole.

Read the Yale article that I posted. Its not as simple as that. My argument has always been that there has been a tete a tete between the two countries. The Afghan government ala the documentation initiated hostilities in the 40s and lost each time - resulting Bhutto formulating strategic depth. This approach of trying to stake land claims and then initiating hostilities means that the Afghan government (not its people) were also cheating their own people by initiating a conflageration beyond its control. This would also result in the series of foolish decisions such as inviting Soviet regulars into Afghanistan


One can't say the US the only invader, while Iran is doing whatever it can to stop the Salma Damn, or while Pakistan is busy building checkposts within Afghan territory, along with other acts of unreserved condemnations.

As noted previously, Iran is going to respond in kind when the "Beast of Kandahar" is downed on its soil and made its initiating flights from Kandahar. To expect Iran to do anything different is to basically decide that all countries except Afghanistan do not get to have an action and reaction response

If you are of the opinion that you want concrete western sources, and you don't take the words of Speenzheri and tribal elders who have been interviewed by video, claiming what I said, then one might as well not criticize the US either since most of the claims, in particular how they handed the base down to Pakistan, is unverified as well.

These same folks in Pakistan and Afghanistan, as noted by Mr. Snow, have used NATO forces to settle local disputes. Regarding the word of elders, Pakistani media sources do the same as the Afghan media sources:
Afghan border confusion bedevils Nato, Pakistan troops | DAWN.COM

Here a Mohmand tribal elder notes that Pakistan outposts are creeping closer and closer to zero line but notes that that the closest one he encountered was 200 meters inside the country.

So which elders does one believe as this plays right into what Mr. Snow is warning about where its a game of tit for tat and clans and tribes vying for land increases?

Or take for instance Pacha Khan Zadran using the same tactic to have NATO level rival tribal families with aerial bombardment... NATO was afterward aghast that he would have done this.

x

[Admin Khan]

^^When the confirmed liar and murderer like Kandahar police chief raziq makes a statement about him shooting at unarmed protesters, you want proof that he is lying. When Karzai himself and the afghan senate speaker Afghan Senate Fazl Hadi Muslimyar makes a statement that confirms the US built and gave those posts to the paksitani military, Now you want proof that the afghan senate speaker is telling the truth.
Senate Speaker Lashes Out at Foreign Troops Over Border Posts

I don't understand you Admin khana.

Khushala, it seems like BA understand my point and you did not. What I am saying is this, if the USA did give those posts to Pakistan(an unconfirmed fact), you condemn the USA, which is understandbly justified. However, if Pakistan does the same, then I expect you to condemn by Pakistan as well. Saying the USA is the only invader, especially when I read that Pakistan is:

A)Repairing the posts brought down
B)Building new posts

Makes me wonder why you don't condemn both the Banana Republic, and any other force that wishes to cheat the population. This has nothing to do about corrupt officials, my stance on that has been clear since day 1, as you can recall.

Manana grana.

[Admin Khan]

Wowra, I am of the opinion that if the coalition forces gave Afghan land to foreigners they should be condemned and brought before the U.N, in short, just about every legal exercise should be executed. However, what wiggles my tails is when Afghans are fed this 'You are occupied' logic by Pakistan, meanwhile they are involved in occupying Afghan land as I type this. Why selective criticism? Why selective condemnation? In no way am I defending the NATO(if they indeed did what is claimed they did, so far no evidence), I am just against folks who see things in a Black and white manner. Recognize that aside from Nangarhar, Pakistan just built NEW POSTS in Kunar. Who gave those to Pakistan this time? Why is the USA, so to speak, the ONLY invader? Pakistan and Iran has been robbing Afghanistan for decades in ways not even imaginable.

Here is my post Khushal Jaana.

[khushal]

I apologize if I misunderstood you Admin but why blame Iran or pakistan or even russia when afghan territory is occupied by a force that is seen as untrustworthy by them. Those neighbors are going to be more aggressive and paranoid and the policy of Karzai is putting afghans in more danger with two of the neighbors nuclear and the third one could be at any minute(not to mention China.) You do realize that a confrontation would make Afghanistan a nuclear target by all three neighbors which will end your ethnicity.

[Wowra]

I have done a pretty detailed search this morning and besides Tolo and a bunch of other Afghan news outlets; and their feeders to western outlets - there is not a single information extensive post that examines it the way a professional civil engineer would in regard to land disputes between two houses etc. about where exactly these posts fall relative to the durand line.[/QUOTE]

Mr. Abdali,

You likely won't find one, either. It would be extremely dangerous for a NATO or UN surveyor to get to these points. Beyond that, the problem is, there aren't two houses there - its one. The Tarkani sub-tribes straddle the border with most of the elders residing in FATA. But the Mujwani, Salarzai, Momeen all straddle and interchange between the AFG and PK. Further up the road, you see the same thing from the Kohistanis from Bari Kot down to Saw... Arandu, PK is right across the border and is almost entirely Kohistani - the elders there are considered Kakka to the younger tribesmen on the Af side of the border. Further up you have eastern Nuristanis (Changee, Kamdishi, and a host of others once consider Black Kafirs) who are obviously interchangeable with a lot of the Chitrali tribes. That's just one reason that these reports are so confusing. The typical chief complaint is Gujjars are trying to squat on land (a conspiracy dating back to their original importation). Its all really bizarre and I suspect its backlash from the indignity of having the borders shut prior to the election. A Talib once passed me a note there that said, "If you jump this high, I'll jump that high." I think that's what we're seeing.

I'll definitely try to hone in on those responses - unfortunately it may take me until mid next week until I can get to it. By then, it'll likely be moot, but i suspect the rammifications will endure.