Pew Poll: Sharia Law and Afghanistan

[Admin Khan]

Admin Khan,

I wasn't advocating any form of government for Afghanistan - only saying that its the responsibility of Afghanistan. If they choose a Sharia based form, that's the prerogative of that nation-state. I personally think something more tribally based would be most effective for Afghanistan, but that could wedge into Sharia or Communism or Democracy. My statements about TB are only to state my agreement with their validity that many Afghans may want a return of the Taliban for extremely simple reasons which is more or less a testament to the failure of the current situation.

Well said, which is exactly why Afghans need to learn there are alternative methods of living; and they should not settle for the lower bound. No one has the right to shove down a particular government down the throats of Afghans, however, they must be taught that this is not a black and white situation; a gray area must be defined.

[Admin Khan]

How is it a failure? Because a documentary said so..

The damage caused by the four decade war is not just going to disappear over night or over a decade.. it's going to take time..

Let me put it this way..

Pros of taleban rule
-Security


Cons of taleban rule..

-Sell out to Pakistan (They had and have no respect for any of afghanistan leaders.. a good example is...president najib)
-Education is forbidden for majority of people..
-Strict Punishments for petty crimes (E.g. people.. who don't have a job, and are hungry.their families..and they need to feed their families..so they go around and steal something. Obviously, taleban can't help them but they make their misery even worse.
-Beating up women..
-Public executions...
-They are mates with Pakistan's army.. who are slaughtering pashtuns everywhere..
-Majority of them have no education..even proper islamic education..
-they won't allow music.
-they won't allow televsion
-If your beard is not long enough, you will get a beating ...
- they won't have a job
- Women with no husbands ... can't go out and get a job.. (they will also be beaten)

the list goes on and on...

etc...etc....


Now why would people want the taleban back, while they can enjoy most of these things such job, money, life, music, internet, food... under the current government rule..

Obviously most of you hardly think of it that way, You haven't spent a night without food in your belly.. so you shouldn't even talk...

Well said Jamal. Unfortunately some singletons assume that because Afghans want security, they want the Taliban. No Afghan wants to live under a barbaric regime; no Afghan wants to continue living under the corruption of Karzai. It is a logical fallacy for one to assume that by criticizing Karzai, one supports the Taliban, or by criticizing the Taliban, one supports Karzai. This is NOT a black and white situation, and the emphasis should not be on useless surveys.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Wowra, I wholeheartedly agree that security is also something Afghans want. I can bet that if one were to tell an Afghan, communism will guaranty you freedom of religion, security(i.e your example about Jalalabad to Herat)and most importantly jobs and peace, the entire nation would be in line for the red hats.

Not true. That was the experiment that failed miserably and that led to the Afghan Russian war in the very first place. We have countless references here on PF to high quality sources that we can reproduce showing clearly that one of the triggers for revolt in the Pashtun belt actually occurred in instances of land grab by communists in which large hereditary land manors were broken up to be given to the common folk based on the Red Revolution. This led to a massive blowback effect from even the peasants being awarded those lands in that they veiwed hereditary land rights as in line with Islam and also a tribal approach that they had always known. Here is a reference:

"The Communists, with their social reform decrees, have received the same reception other emissaries to Kabul have received: obstinance and violence... The attempted land reform, however, brought doom to the Marxists. The government says that from 250,000 to 300,000 families received land, though probably far fewer actually experienced a change, and that not one farmer ever thought to sell his inefficient five-acre plot, for which he often couldn't get seed or fertilizer. Thus, the government says, no need exists for a law governing whether the grants can be sold. I never stumbled on a village in Afghanistan where land reform had been carried out. In Pakistan I did encounter Afghan landlords and villagers who had crossed the mountains as refugees because MIGs and helicopter gunships had attacked their villages after land reform was resisted. Many Afghans do indeed farm as tenants, paying landlords a third to half of what they grow, depending on the crop. But this certainly isn't a country of large South American-style plantations run by an ostentatiously wealthy upper class. Many landlords hold recognized places in the tribal or religious structure. Tenant farmers do need a way to secure their own land, but landlords have never been the object of anything like the hatred now extended to the land reformers."

Afghans just want peace, and a decent job to make a living.

And as noted, to perserve their own value and penal system.

Since Karzai has done a terrible job with his administration, some uneducated illiterate folks who have never truly tasted a free society would often times wish for the Taliban to return, but to support their cause and not educated them about alternative realities is being cowardly and inhumane.

Once again, what does "educate" mean? Educate as in intervene with 32 nations and NATO and the barrell of a gun and stunt their own progression of internal dynamics that leads to the evolution of social thought?

Once again, overwhelming robust data shows, and the baltimore data, the Pew data etc are all here posted in PF countless times by myself and others: that they actually do not want a "free" society as we define it in America. They may value and relish technology and development - but they themselves do not view their ideologies and support for shariah punishments as "uneducated and backwards."

And how are the diaspora, who think that they know what is best for their "illiterate: brethren any better? Is Zak Kandahari who thinks that every insurgent is a Pakistani in disguise the right type of diaspora candidate for the job? We saw his "brave" and "humane" education of Wardag rural people.

They can surely, as human beings, educate themselves and deal with whatever government is their own by themselvs and for themselves. They after all overthrew an empire.

This notion is basically the same notion that fuels foreign interventionalism.

If the diaspora feels this way then they should replace the American security forces and train themselves in combat so that America's sons and daughters can return home safe and sound. If they want to force their "backwards and uneducated" brethren to taste freedom as they know it - let them force them to do with guns instead of kharijaan.

It is no different than the young folks of Swat who are taught this world has no purpose and to go blow up yourself for your ticket to heaven.

That radicalization involving Sufi Muhammad was an equally radical response to local and nearby interventionalism.

In conclusion Wowra, this is not a black and white situation. There should be a gray area, to claim that it is either the Taliban return vs Karzai is just silly, illogical. There are far more efficient algorithms.

This is true, but the black and white is the fact that its historically proven to be silly and illogical for diaspora of any vein (e.g Cuba, Chile, Iraq, Iran, etc etc etc have proven this) to enforce nonnative systems on native rural people for the ego of the diaspora to be wetted.

x

[Admin Khan]

Not true. That was the experiment that failed miserably and that led to the Afghan Russian war in the very first place. We have countless references here on PF to high quality sources that we can reproduce showing clearly that one of the triggers for revolt in the Pashtun belt actually occurred in instances of land grab by communists in which large hereditary land manors were broken up to be given to the common folk based on the Red Revolution. This led to a massive blowback effect from even the peasants being awarded those lands in that they veiwed hereditary land rights as in line with Islam and also a tribal approach that they had always known. Here is a reference:

Absolutely true. The average Afghan, if you were to ask him right now what he wants is peace, a job, and the ability to practice his religion, nothing more nothing less. An Afghan does NOT give a rats rear if it is democratic or shariah based, provided that the aforementioned is met. If any 'form of government' offers this, the Afghan is sold. Using communism as an example is not literal per se, but it definitely reflects ground realities. Perhaps the next time when you visit Kandahar, ask just about any Afghan what I said, and you will see them nod their head, since the only goal they have right now is to achieve peace. Every single Afghan is tired of war, and bloodshed. There is simply no motivation, given that half the nation is comprised of young folks that just want a solid education with a decent outcome.

Once again, what does "educate" mean? Educate as in intervene with 32 nations and NATO and the barrell of a gun and stunt their own progression of internal dynamics that leads to the evolution of social thought?
No, that is not education. No one here is advocating for intervention BA, that is a logical fallacy at best. Education as in the same education you've received.

Once again, overwhelming robust data shows, and the baltimore data, the Pew data etc are all here posted in PF countless times by myself and others: that they actually do not want a "free" society as we define it in America. They may value and relish technology and development - but they themselves do not view their ideologies and support for shariah punishments as "uneducated and backwards."

Of course the above might be true, when you are raised in a nation where hearing about the death of 10 folks is normal, then you might get accustomed to other ridiculous nonsense as well sooner or later. However, it is cowardly to not educate the nation about alternative realities, and better form of livings.

And how are the diaspora, who think that they know what is best for their "illiterate: brethren any better? Is Zak Kandahari who thinks that every insurgent is a Pakistani in disguise the right type of diaspora candidate for the job? We saw his "brave" and "humane" education of Wardag rural people.
I already unreservedly condemned him, and have no clue why you are dragging him into the conversation. Educated diaspora as in the 20,000 Afghans in New York, and the 300K in the USA alone. It is a fallacy to use him as a representative to all Afghans. We are having a soccer tournament in Queens this Sunday, you'll witness a solid 5-10K[90% or more Kandahari] Afghans, I'm sure if each Afghan from that tournament could help in some way, Kandahar could see some light of development.

They can surely, as human beings, educate themselves and deal with whatever government is their own by themselvs and for themselves. They after all overthrew an empire.

This notion is basically the same notion that fuels foreign interventionalism.

If the diaspora feels this way then they should replace the American security forces and train themselves in combat so that America's sons and daughters can return home safe and sound. If they want to force their "backwards and uneducated" brethren to taste freedom as they know it - let them force them to do with guns instead of kharijaan.

I agree. The biggest problem is having FOREIGNERS fight on behalf of Afghans. That is beghairat at best.

[ډګروال]

one thing i have seen is that people back home are much more intelligent and civilised compared to the arrogant 5th columners. Above all they are proud of their identity and can spot an uncle tom from a distance.

to assume that Afghans back home are backward is simply being either extremely ill informed or simply put agenda driven.

Afghanistan is here to stay and not for sale.

[Admin Khan]

one thing i have seen is that people back home are much more intelligent and civilised compared to the arrogant 5th columners. Above all they are proud of their identity and can spot an uncle tom from a distance.

to assume that Afghans back home are backward is simply being either extremely ill informed or simply put agenda driven.

Afghanistan is here to stay and not for sale.

It's time for Afghans to drop the illusion, and perhaps wake up and realize the nation is in pieces, there are talks of dissecting it into pieces, prostitution is on the rise, and just about every illicit act you can name is on the rise, including HIV in Kandahar. Now, our folks have wisdom, but unfortunately due to the past 3 decades, sadly Afghans have NOT been able to educate their youth, and constantly:
A)Live by the edge
B)Live in fear.

For one to not recognize the obvious means either they are ignorant, or enjoy seeing Afghans crushed into pieces; something which happens daily. Slowly, and slowly, as the nation dives further into illiteracy, one will realize that most Pakistani and Afghans that reside back home have an associated price-tag.

Due to the lack of calling a spade a spade, Afghanistan continues to linger down in every development index imaginable. Pride can be the worst germ imaginable.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You have to validate that statement. Its actually a very unscientific one to make. The Pew data does mean a very important thing: it means that a representative sample of the populace holds a particular opinion about their view on governance and what sort of penal code they want in place. Illiteracy and backwardsness do not trump the right of even the illiterate (remember the Prophet Mohammad was illiterate) and those the tribal (code word for backward/rural these days) to have the right to the way of life they desire.

The representative sample is illiterate, and most likely does NOT understand what is good for them.

That in no way ethically negates their choice and in no way negates the fact that you are saying we are better than then and know what is better for them. That also has no scientific or historical basis or even an ethical one. Its basically a justifaction to force others to be a way they dont want.

If you were to conduct a survey in North Korea, they would claim the president being God is what is best for them; such surveys hold weight in educated societies where critical thinking is established; dragging Science into this is illogical.

Not so. Its dragging history and proof into the discussion. Comparing a theoretical survey done by North Koreans in North Korea is not comparible to an academia driven data collection initiated and fostered by a group of academicians. And the educated circle would agree that interventionalism is a failed approach for both the intervened upon (further radicalizes the populace) and the interventionalist (perpetual war as Franklin noted diminishes freedom).

Quit the contrary. The overwhelming majority of the evidence, analyzed by the University of Maryland shows that Muslim populaces appreciate and commend other nations for advancements and technological prowess. That however has no bearing on their opinion of how adultery should be punished (Afghans by the way were the most likely in the Pew data to support the rajm practice)
I never said Muslims don't appreciate advancements and technology BA, re-read what I wrote. I said during the Taliban Era, I myself witnessed talk along the lines of "Cellphones with screens that have graphics are Haram because in the day of Judgement Allah would ask you why you invented creatures".

Once again, thats not a fair basis of a comparison even scientifically. If the surveyors and responders answered with that response you would have a point. A scientist analyzing the data would note that the respondees simply responded to their view on what constitutes Islamic law and punishments and the role of Islam in governance. You cannot deflect that with no evidence to the idea that the respondents want to crush mobile companies.

So the fact of the matter is, in a war torn country, such surveys do absolutely nothing.

But they do, they offer proof that the imposed secular democratic system being put in place by the barrell of a gun and the response to it produce results that are predictable and grave.

Offer an Afghan peace and jobs, with the promise of sustainable growth, and he is all yours.

Once again, the survey does not address that concept and just as a genius like Einstein can cheat on his wife and still be a genius - so too can a person hold the belief in stoning for adultery and still have sustainable growth and peace and jobs. The two are not mutually exclusive concepts and you are mixing that up in a way. The survey simply points out that the representative sampling of the Afghan people have the strongest predeliction for Sharia in the Muslim world and that their subcategories are also in tandem with the various shariah defined punishments (theives getting the hand cut as per the Quranic verse).

Such surveys, similar to the ones NATO conducts, hold once again no weight.

NATO's surveys have been scrutinized and proven wrong by independent organizations from academia. This was one driven by Academia. The former organizations proved definitively that numbers were being pumped up regarding the number of insurgents killed etc etc and the fact that estimates were being used as opposed to hard numbers. Two entirely different types of surveys.

It is silly to assume they have any meaning to them, or to make anything out of them. You can literally buy an Afghan nowadays, not sure when was the last time you visited Kandahar.

So I am sorry but I think we have a lot we can learn from rural people in terms of values and in terms of devotedness and bravery. I personally dont think that we have the right to call ourselves "intelligent diaspora" and view them as "backwards" creatures in need of our saving.

Sometimes we need to wake up and call a spade, a spade. There is no doubt that our elders possess wisdom, but the youth needs more than just fairy tale stories, it needs the intelligent diaspora, who are professionals in their field, to bring back what they have learned and share it.

Im sure they dont mind diaspora coming back. But they completely have the right to ask diaspora to respect their chosen value system. If Mr. Diaspora steals while he is there or if he commits adultery or if he does x, y, and z then he can surely respect the rights of the rural masses to inflict the weight of shariah law on him if that be their preference. If Diaspora is truly concerned for his people he need not force their hands on their values but rather ought to work with locals in the confines of their value system. This is no different than Americans asking immigrants to integrate.

Israel is one of the leading countries in the world because of its diaspora who returned and helped build leading, cutting-edge institutions.

Once again, not a good comparison since there were no native rural orthodox israelis who had to be forced by the British to agree with the diaspora. In fact the inception of eretz Israel by Hertzl found its basis in scripture, specifically Genesis.

So I'm sorry to say but given this 30 years of war, it is silly to romanticize the past and assume that our elders are nothing more than illiterate folks, hence Afghanistan ranking the least in just about any ranking imaginable, blame it on intervention or whatever(that's another discussion)but the fact of the matter is the following:
The nation is backwards, and it needs you and others to help advance it. Else, mark my words Afghanistan will remain in the stone age for years to come.

I have no problem advancing it while respecting their right to do as they have done until they decide different. If I go their village and I steal land or if I go to their village and convert to Christianity etc etc and their belief system and value system penalizes that - I better be ready to accept my fate. I would a horrible person on the other hand if I viewed them as nothings and myself as a benevolent dictator who would coax them to modernity. That would result in further radicalization.

In regards to Iran and Pakistan situation, I think Salma Dam speaks for its self, but we can expand upon that discussion at a later time, since it would divert from the current theme.

I say it in the context that it is not a sustainable argument to try and pin the Islamic sentiment of the Afghan people on backwardsness and then to claim that Pakistan taught them this or that and has a major fetish of keeping them backward. I think such an approach only worsens the situation because it allows for more of a fools rush in approach ala Daud or Karzai that will only allow Pakistan to further utilize its past approaches. Honesty in history permits a clear and cogent response that is tactical.

x

[randolph85]

(They had and have no respect for any of afghanistan leaders.. a good example is...president najib)

had to single this out because of its ridiculousness. u can't be serious can u? what respect did najib deserve? even his grave doesn't deserve respect. If anything, the talibs should be criticized for letting that POS have a proper funeral.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Not true. That was the experiment that failed miserably and that led to the Afghan Russian war in the very first place. We have countless references here on PF to high quality sources that we can reproduce showing clearly that one of the triggers for revolt in the Pashtun belt actually occurred in instances of land grab by communists in which large hereditary land manors were broken up to be given to the common folk based on the Red Revolution. This led to a massive blowback effect from even the peasants being awarded those lands in that they veiwed hereditary land rights as in line with Islam and also a tribal approach that they had always known. Here is a reference:

Absolutely true. The average Afghan, if you were to ask him right now what he wants is peace, a job, and the ability to practice his religion, nothing more nothing less. An Afghan does NOT give a rats rear if it is democratic or shariah based, provided that the aforementioned is met.

But once again the data shows clearly he wants his democracy steeped in sharia - not the secular brand of Karzai. Thats important because it shows you what is implementable and what is not realistically and practically. It also beckons an ethical approach in that if a people do not want "western values" and if they decide they dont want democracy ala Karzai but a shuraat system - that is their right.

If any 'form of government' offers this, the Afghan is sold. Using communism as an example is not literal per se, but it definitely reflects ground realities. Perhaps the next time when you visit Kandahar, ask just about any Afghan what I said, and you will see them nod their head, since the only goal they have right now is to achieve peace. Every single Afghan is tired of war, and bloodshed. There is simply no motivation, given that half the nation is comprised of young folks that just want a solid education with a decent outcome.

Once again, what does "educate" mean? Educate as in intervene with 32 nations and NATO and the barrell of a gun and stunt their own progression of internal dynamics that leads to the evolution of social thought?
No, that is not education. No one here is advocating for intervention BA, that is a logical fallacy at best. Education as in the same education you've received.

Who says that the Afghan people being allowed to live their motivations and their idea of governance wont seek out education. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. The answers in this survey about what they want (and mind you it clashes and contrasts with what the diaspora emigre technocrats think they want) dont have any relation to thriving in education.

Once again, overwhelming robust data shows, and the baltimore data, the Pew data etc are all here posted in PF countless times by myself and others: that they actually do not want a "free" society as we define it in America. They may value and relish technology and development - but they themselves do not view their ideologies and support for shariah punishments as "uneducated and backwards."

Of course the above might be true, when you are raised in a nation where hearing about the death of 10 folks is normal, then you might get accustomed to other ridiculous nonsense as well sooner or later.

If that is their religious value system and the Quranic ayaahs prescribe that punishment for a thief... and an Afghan Bernie Madoff gets his hand chopped off, why is that ridiculous nonsense any more than Singapore caning a boy for a crime?

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/26/us...singapore.html


However, it is cowardly to not educate the nation about alternative realities, and better form of livings.

Thats once again an opinion. They may not view it as better living and they certainly have the right ethically to live as they may. When not intevervened upon, they often have no issue and do not elicit radical responses to such discussions:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/26/ma...anted=all&_r=0

Here is an example of now to deal with folks in a professional and ethical versus the approach of a technocrat diaspora member who relies on 32 nations to protect his position in Kabul:

Over the next three weeks, Hoover and Rahmatullah traveled around Taliban-controlled Afghanistan and formed a deep friendship. One night, a week or so into the trip, Hoover was sitting on the floor of the foreign office guest house in Kandahar, drinking tea as Rahmatullah and some other Taliban peeled potatoes and onions. Rahmatullah asked him a question.
"Do you believe people are related to dogs?"
Dogs are not favored in Afghan society; the question dared him to contradict common sense.
"Yes," Hoover said.
The Taliban all laughed in amazement.
"How can you possibly believe that? We are so different."
"You see only differences. I see similarities."
"Similarities! Like what?"
Hoover wanted his first example to be an intellectual bunker buster, so he thought carefully.
"Bilateral symmetry," he said. The laughter stopped, which pleased him.
"What does that mean?"
"It means dogs have eyes on either side of their nose, just like humans. Dogs have two nostrils, just like humans. They have two lungs. They have toenails. They have a heart in the center of their chest. Dog blood and human blood are indistinguishable."
Recalling the exchange not long ago, Hoover said: "Now you could hear a pin drop — and it was a dirt floor. They were starting to get uneasy. There was a dog right outside. It was scraggly and covered with sores; I think the appropriate word for it would be 'cur.' When I finished laying out how they might be genetically related to the cur outside, they went off and started talking among themselves very intently. What they were discussing and what they wanted to understand was if what I was saying was true, would it fit within the teachings of the Koran. After a long time they came to the conclusion that it would."

And how are the diaspora, who think that they know what is best for their "illiterate: brethren any better? Is Zak Kandahari who thinks that every insurgent is a Pakistani in disguise the right type of diaspora candidate for the job? We saw his "brave" and "humane" education of Wardag rural people.
I already unreservedly condemned him, and have no clue why you are dragging him into the conversation. Educated diaspora as in the 20,000 Afghans in New York, and the 300K in the USA alone. It is a fallacy to use him as a representative to all Afghans. We are having a soccer tournament in Queens this Sunday, you'll witness a solid 5-10K[90% or more Kandahari] Afghans, I'm sure if each Afghan from that tournament could help in some way, Kandahar could see some light of development.

Once again, per the survey results diaspora helping is not addressed . Diaspora, on the other hand, enforcing secular democracy ala the Kabul government is something the survey sheds light on. If that whole soccer field went and built a hospital or a school the survey does not address, sceintifically any views on this and the only information to date comes from baltimore showing that Muslims in Muslims land appreciate technological prowess and advancement. That however does not go hand in hand with shedding their VALUE system.

They can surely, as human beings, educate themselves and deal with whatever government is their own by themselvs and for themselves. They after all overthrew an empire.

This notion is basically the same notion that fuels foreign interventionalism.

If the diaspora feels this way then they should replace the American security forces and train themselves in combat so that America's sons and daughters can return home safe and sound. If they want to force their "backwards and uneducated" brethren to taste freedom as they know it - let them force them to do with guns instead of kharijaan.

I agree. The biggest problem is having FOREIGNERS fight on behalf of Afghans. That is beghairat at best.

I think this is one of the biggest issues. Ghani, Arsala, Karzai (Mahmod, hamid, qayoom) all require foreigners to keep them propped up as does Gul agha sherzai.

x

[Admin Khan]

That in no way ethically negates their choice and in no way negates the fact that you are saying we are better than then and know what is better for them. That also has no scientific or historical basis or even an ethical one. Its basically a justifaction to force others to be a way they dont want.
BA, seriously? Clearly that bolded part is a lie. Never did I say that, never.

Unfortunately, what you are saying is not true. Never did I say we know better, but what I did say is after 30 years of war, perhaps at this point Afghans want anything that would bring peace and joy, and they are willing to try anything that could deliver that. Given that Afghans are so illiterate, some Afghans would believe just about anything you tell them. Go pay visit to Arghandab Valley, where not a proper single school exists, and try testing a 18 year olds intelligence, and then realize he is the future of Afghanistan. The point I am making is a far more global, and rather hawkish one. What you are mentioning, is romanticizing the past, and clearly your approach has not worked. If we continue to chest-thump as to how 'wise' our elders are, the nation will not go forward. The first way of a solution, is to realize Afghanistan has a problem. One of those problems is how easy it is to buy an Afghan, and literally make him do what you want. The aforementioned occurs often times to due to a lack of education and critical thinking. Pulling our PEW surveys means, once again, nothing -- the ground reality is Afghans want peace and wealth at any cost. Any solution must be Afghan-driven, Afghan-led, you and I have no right to shove a particular solution down their throats, but if we know your cousin back home can't even spell the word derivative, let alone realize it is the slope of a tangent line, then the fact of the matter is, you might want to guide him and offer him an informed opinion.

Not so. Its dragging history and proof into the discussion. Comparing a theoretical survey done by North Koreans in North Korea is not comparible to an academia driven data collection initiated and fostered by a group of academicians. And the educated circle would agree that interventionalism is a failed approach for both the intervened upon (further radicalizes the populace) and the interventionalist (perpetual war as Franklin noted diminishes freedom).

I disagree, in terms of similarities, it is perfectly acceptable in academia to drive a comparison between the two nations and recognize that there could exists similarities in terms of various columns. No one is justifying intervention, I don't regard the Afghan diaspora lending an ear to their relatives back home as intervention. If an Afghan can genuinely offer help, he should. That's all I am saying. If you see an Afghan taking someones blood pressure the wrong way, or if I say an Afghan using bubble-sort, and not merge-sort or quick-sort, or using a finite-state automaton, and not knowing what a Turing Machine, or what a push-down automata is, I would try to offer some help, and that help can go a long way given the massive Afghan diaspora. To simply sit back on your cushion and talk about how Afghans are so wise and full of intelligence back home is simply sad, nicely put.


Once again, thats not a fair basis of a comparison even scientifically. If the surveyors and responders answered with that response you would have a point. A scientist analyzing the data would note that the respondees simply responded to their view on what constitutes Islamic law and punishments and the role of Islam in governance. You cannot deflect that with no evidence to the idea that the respondents want to crush mobile companies.

When just about every Afghan has rarely attended any decent-form of school, only recently have schools formed(which are even terrible right now) it is hard to expect an Afghan to think critically and know what is best for him. The same way a patient doesn't know what is best for him.

Once again, the survey does not address that concept and just as a genius like Einstein can cheat on his wife and still be a genius - so too can a person hold the belief in stoning for adultery and still have sustainable growth and peace and jobs. The two are not mutually exclusive concepts and you are mixing that up in a way. The survey simply points out that the representative sampling of the Afghan people have the strongest predeliction for Sharia in the Muslim world and that their subcategories are also in tandem with the various shariah defined punishments (theives getting the hand cut as per the Quranic verse).

I am not mixing up any concepts, in fact, I am doing the opposite. Rest assured that as a student of Math, the concept of mutually exclusive is very familiar to me and that is not what is happening here. In fact, the approach is rather different. Afghans, in my opinion, after 40 years of wreckage, just want peace and growth. Some Afghans, out of fear and oppression, might be okay with nonsensical form of governments and that is where the lack of education factor comes into effect.


NATO's surveys have been scrutinized and proven wrong by independent organizations from academia. This was one driven by Academia. The former organizations proved definitively that numbers were being pumped up regarding the number of insurgents killed etc etc and the fact that estimates were being used as opposed to hard numbers. Two entirely different types of surveys.

For sure, no one including myself, has said NATO offers better surveys than the mickey-mouse PEW surveys.

Once again, not a good comparison since there were no native rural orthodox israelis who had to be forced by the British to agree with the diaspora. In fact the inception of eretz Israel by Hertzl found its basis in scripture, specifically Genesis.

Huh? An absolutely good comparison. Israel went from deserts to a high-tech hub. It is illogical for you to assume the same can't happen with Afghanistan if the Afghan in the west bring back the tech knowledge they've attained.


I have no problem advancing it while respecting their right to do as they have done until they decide different. If I go their village and I steal land or if I go to their village and convert to Christianity etc etc and their belief system and value system penalizes that - I better be ready to accept my fate. I would a horrible person on the other hand if I viewed them as nothings and myself as a benevolent dictator who would coax them to modernity. That would result in further radicalization.

One wouldn't expect an Afghan, to go back home to convert them to Christianity. You and I both know that is far-fetched.


I say it in the context that it is not a sustainable argument to try and pin the Islamic sentiment of the Afghan people on backwardsness and then to claim that Pakistan taught them this or that and has a major fetish of keeping them backward. I think such an approach only worsens the situation because it allows for more of a fools rush in approach ala Daud or Karzai that will only allow Pakistan to further utilize its past approaches. Honesty in history permits a clear and cogent response that is tactical.
No one can blame a foreigner, although one can not deny that obvious support Pakistan had for elements within the Taliban that were serving the Pakistani interests. It is illogical for one to claim that the Taliban is a Pakistani puppet, but it is just as illogical to claim that Pakistan did NOT have figures within the Taliban who were serving Pakistani interests. For the 2nd time, it is in the regional interest of both Iran and Pakistan to not see a healthy Afghanistan. A healthy Afghanistan will reduce imports, stop the illegal flow of water, and compete in various sectors. I've already exhausted this conversation with a leading Turkish intellectual in the world, and we both agreed that it is common sense for regional countries to not want their neighbor flourishing when they depend so much on you. It is all about money and influence at the end of the day for them.

[Admin Khan]

had to single this out because of its ridiculousness. u can't be serious can u? what respect did najib deserve? even his grave doesn't deserve respect. If anything, the talibs should be criticized for letting that POS have a proper funeral.

Afghanistan has never had a proper leader, unfortunately. Not a single one.

[randolph85]

even when fear was not in the equation of everyday life in afghanistan, afghans were complacent. when afghans are not singing the praises of other afghans military achievements, they are woefully ignorant of their own reality. its kind of funny because in 100 years, no matter the outcome in the near future, afghans will be singing the praises of todays resistance against the western occupation despite being anti taliban by character.

[ډګروال]

It's time for Afghans to drop the illusion, and perhaps wake up and realize the nation is in pieces, there are talks of dissecting it into pieces, prostitution is on the rise, and just about every illicit act you can name is on the rise, including HIV in Kandahar. Now, our folks have wisdom, but unfortunately due to the past 3 decades, sadly Afghans have NOT been able to educate their youth, and constantly:
A)Live by the edge
B)Live in fear.
It would be an illusion if i go with the fox news characterisation of pashtuns.The nation is in pieces because a war has been imposed on Afghans for the last 12 years,12YEARS. Prostitution is on the rise no doubt ,so is drug productions.Corruption is so high that afghan police will probably beat pakistani police along with politicians.So if we go like this than in 60 years we would be where pakistan is today. Education doesnt just fall off from the sky ,it needs a secured atmosphere. I could agree if the diaspora would help afghans with education but i just dont agree that the diaspora can teach Afghans how to live,its the other way around.

For one to not recognize the obvious means either they are ignorant, or enjoy seeing Afghans crushed into pieces; something which happens daily. Slowly, and slowly, as the nation dives further into illiteracy, one will realize that most Pakistani and Afghans that reside back home have an associated price-tag.
the obvious is that Afghans back home are much more aware of the situation and what they want in comparison to us abroad. Afghans being illiterate isnt the worst at this point,them being dead is.I disagree about having "every afghan and pakistani back home having a price tag" it is mostly peopel in diaspora who for money do anything like writing propaganda books etc(ETC with the capital letters)..
here is latest news on how the lives of afghans have been ruined and especially that of women and how this leads to creation of more who would be labeled punjabis in disguise.

Afghanistan
He continues, “In our cruel society, if a girl is raped by strong forces there is nothing left for the girl and the family … We can cope with being poor, with earthquakes and disease—but not with rape that steals a family’s honor. We are ruined.”

The next morning, Jumadin walked to the village mosque to find out if anyone knew what had happened. “People were talking about how yesterday the ALP, who are under the control of American forces, had raided a number of houses in the village looking for Taliban,” he says.

He called his family in Pakistan and told them not to return—and quickly decided to join them. Within a week, he had sold his animals and most of his possessions. “We could not stay any longer in the house and village where my daughter had lost her and the family’s future,” says a tearful Jumadin, who now lives with his family in an Afghan refugee camp in Peshawar, Pakistan.

“My daughter is still in shock,” he adds. “She is only skin and bone. She won’t eat, and every night she cries out in her dreams: ‘baba jan (father), baba jan, protect me.’”

“I couldn’t protect her,” he continues. “But if there was a Taliban regime, not a single woman would be raped … I feel like joining the Taliban, getting a suicide vest to attack [Afghan President Hamid] Karzai, the Americans and all these American-backed police militias.”


Due to the lack of calling a spade a spade, Afghanistan continues to linger down in every development index imaginable. Pride can be the worst germ imaginable.

yes we should call a spade a spade .
-this war has been devatating and totally not worth it.
-people have been killed maimed dispalced and many forms of cancers are on the rise.
-there is no justice and warlords are doing whatever they want like:
grabing people land (sayaf in paghman)
the killing and evicting of kuchis
alp anp and militia rape at will
Afghan parliament is a hub of corruption
afghan president is on payroll
iran is killing afghans and the pro iranian media is silent about it.
zikria kandahari and shujayee on a rampage
selling out afghan resources way under the market value
these are some examples im sure the list is long

THESE ARE THE THINGS WE SHOULD MENTION
INSTEAD OF CONSTANTLY MALIGNING THE POOR ILLITERATE AFGHANS.

most of those involved in crime and corruption are either from diaspora or the supposed educated elite in kabul and not the poor illiterate villager.

[randolph85]

Afghanistan has never had a proper leader, unfortunately. Not a single one.

we have had proper leaders, depends on your definition of "proper." i would say any leader that wasn't appointed by foreigners, no matter how horrible at his job he was. the puppets are different and even among the puppets there is a great difference.

karzai is a puppet but he is a buffoon, i don't think he is consciously evil. he is corrupt, thinks he is doing what is right. an ignorant idiot.

najib was also a puppet, but he was no buffoon, by all accounts he was openly antagonistic to islam, was a cruel person that murdered people by his own hand and only played the role of peace maker when he knew his days were numbered.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

That in no way ethically negates their choice and in no way negates the fact that you are saying we are better than then and know what is better for them. That also has no scientific or historical basis or even an ethical one. Its basically a justifaction to force others to be a way they dont want.
BA, seriously? Clearly that bolded part is a lie. Never did I say that, never.

Unfortunately, what you are saying is not true. Never did I say we know better, but what I did say is after 30 years of war, perhaps at this point Afghans want anything that would bring peace and joy, and they are willing to try anything that could deliver that. Given that Afghans are so illiterate, some Afghans would believe just about anything you tell them. Go pay visit to Arghandab Valley, where not a proper single school exists, and try testing a 18 year olds intelligence, and then realize he is the future of Afghanistan.

Once again, intelligence and modality of punishment are not tied at the hip. Bernie Madoff spending life in jail versus Bernie madoff recieving the Quranic punishment have no bearing on that 18 year olds intelligence. Rather it speaks to his value system which he has a right to.

The point I am making is a far more global, and rather hawkish one. What you are mentioning, is romanticizing the past, and clearly your approach has not worked. If we continue to chest-thump as to how 'wise' our elders are, the nation will not go forward. The first way of a solution, is to realize Afghanistan has a problem. One of those problems is how easy it is to buy an Afghan, and literally make him do what you want. The aforementioned occurs often times to due to a lack of education and critical thinking. Pulling our PEW surveys means, once again, nothing -- the ground reality is Afghans want peace and wealth at any cost.

Once again, you have to prove and validate that statement as the scientific evidence (the survey results amongst others with large sample sizes) do not validate "at any cost" based on the prefered value system. Thats like saying: John just wants his son Ryan to succeed at any cost. That doesnt mean John wants Ryan to go and steal tests and pull fire alarms while other students are sleeping.

Any solution must be Afghan-driven, Afghan-led, you and I have no right to shove a particular solution down their throats, but if we know your cousin back home can't even spell the word derivative, let alone realize it is the slope of a tangent line, then the fact of the matter is, you might want to guide him and offer him an informed opinion.

The survey once again, Admin, does not comment on the cousins desire to learn about the slope of the tangent line. Rather it gives us insight into how when an idiot like Najib or Karzai thinks that he will cram the slope of the tangent line down a villagers throat by forcing a different value system on him ---> blowback may occur and the poor villager may associate the slope of the tangent line with interventionalism and that enforced value system. That is why the Kabul government, being an imposed entity, will embolden blowback. The diaspora in Kabul and those like that Naz singer that pissed off tribal people in Kandahar when she sang in front of men are not teaching villagers about slopes of tangent lines... they are using interventionalism to enforce the notions on people that dont want them.

Not so. Its dragging history and proof into the discussion. Comparing a theoretical survey done by North Koreans in North Korea is not comparible to an academia driven data collection initiated and fostered by a group of academicians. And the educated circle would agree that interventionalism is a failed approach for both the intervened upon (further radicalizes the populace) and the interventionalist (perpetual war as Franklin noted diminishes freedom).

I disagree, in terms of similarities, it is perfectly acceptable in academia to drive a comparison between the two nations and recognize that there could exists similarities in terms of various columns. No one is justifying intervention, I don't regard the Afghan diaspora lending an ear to their relatives back home as intervention. If an Afghan can genuinely offer help, he should. That's all I am saying. If you see an Afghan taking someones blood pressure the wrong way, or if I say an Afghan using bubble-sort, and not merge-sort or quick-sort, or using a finite-state automaton, and not knowing what a Turing Machine, or what a push-down automata is, I would try to offer some help, and that help can go a long way given the massive Afghan diaspora. To simply sit back on your cushion and talk about how Afghans are so wise and full of intelligence back home is simply sad, nicely put.

Once again, the survey does not comment on whether Afghans want to know how to measure blood pressure accurately and whether they would accept that. Rather it talks about what penal code and value system they prefer. That penal code and value system have no bearing on learning how to do blood pressure measurements.

Once again, thats not a fair basis of a comparison even scientifically. If the surveyors and responders answered with that response you would have a point. A scientist analyzing the data would note that the respondees simply responded to their view on what constitutes Islamic law and punishments and the role of Islam in governance. You cannot deflect that with no evidence to the idea that the respondents want to crush mobile companies.

When just about every Afghan has rarely attended any decent-form of school, only recently have schools formed(which are even terrible right now) it is hard to expect an Afghan to think critically and know what is best for him.

Thats not validated in any provable way whatsoever. Moreover, why would punishing madoff with God's prescription not be "better for him?" How does that bear on his ability to think critically?

The same way a patient doesn't know what is best for him.

Not so... the model of paternalistic medicine is dead my friend. The patient has complete autonomy and we are taught to listen and learn from him and advise him. Many patients actually do know their own bodies and offer doctors clues on their ailments when doctors are willing to listen.

Paternalism is balanced by the right of the patient for informed consent:

https://litigation-essentials.lexisn...9b019b22e9b6f1

The Afghan villager never gave his informed consent to the diaspora member to call his value system backward and deprive him of the right to it.

Once again, the survey does not address that concept and just as a genius like Einstein can cheat on his wife and still be a genius - so too can a person hold the belief in stoning for adultery and still have sustainable growth and peace and jobs. The two are not mutually exclusive concepts and you are mixing that up in a way. The survey simply points out that the representative sampling of the Afghan people have the strongest predeliction for Sharia in the Muslim world and that their subcategories are also in tandem with the various shariah defined punishments (theives getting the hand cut as per the Quranic verse).

I am not mixing up any concepts, in fact, I am doing the opposite. Rest assured that as a student of Math, the concept of mutually exclusive is very familiar to me and that is not what is happening here. In fact, the approach is rather different. Afghans, in my opinion, after 40 years of wreckage, just want peace and growth. Some Afghans, out of fear and oppression, might be okay with nonsensical form of governments and that is where the lack of education factor comes into effect.

Once again, nosense is in the eyes of the beholder. To an Afghan villager locking up madoff and paying millions to hold him and other like him in perpetual jail custody without any effect on the societies other madoffs in the making might be more nonsensical than cutting off his hand as per God's law. So why is that nonsense?


NATO's surveys have been scrutinized and proven wrong by independent organizations from academia. This was one driven by Academia. The former organizations proved definitively that numbers were being pumped up regarding the number of insurgents killed etc etc and the fact that estimates were being used as opposed to hard numbers. Two entirely different types of surveys.

For sure, no one including myself, has said NATO offers better surveys than the mickey-mouse PEW surveys.

Define micky mouse. Its design is sound, its data robust, its conclusions based on the data. It was peer reviewed and scrutinized. Calling it micky mouse because it illustrates a cross section of Afghan society wants Islamic law is hardly the grounds for being micky mouse. Its far more sound than NATO's independently disproven data.

Once again, not a good comparison since there were no native rural orthodox israelis who had to be forced by the British to agree with the diaspora. In fact the inception of eretz Israel by Hertzl found its basis in scripture, specifically Genesis.

Huh? An absolutely good comparison. Israel went from deserts to a high-tech hub.

Not the same because what is implied in agreement is to say that there was an Israeli nation in existence (there was not) and that there was a horrible war in which technocrats became diaspora instead of risking their lives against the Russians (i.e. they preferred warm beds and milk and cookies while their rural brethren bled) and then the rural masses had to accept the diaspora's enforcement of variant ideals onto them. That never happened in Israel's case. In Israel's case, one ethnic group removed another and took its land. A whole mass of people with generally the same view of governmental systems all came in in varying stages. The two are incomparable except that the Kabul emigre governmental diaspora in some ways does resemble the Israeli settlers and their disregard for the rights of others.

It is illogical for you to assume the same can't happen with Afghanistan if the Afghan in the west bring back the tech knowledge they've attained.

Sure but tech knowledge and the view that theives should have their hands cut off have no baring on eachother. Hoodlums, Presidents, Saints etc all use technology and some hoodlums may use it better than some saints and vice versa. If you can explain why the Afghan people being allowed to adopt their own aspirations will stop them from accepting technology in the right context, then do so. Otherwise, I see no relationship.


I have no problem advancing it while respecting their right to do as they have done until they decide different. If I go their village and I steal land or if I go to their village and convert to Christianity etc etc and their belief system and value system penalizes that - I better be ready to accept my fate. I would a horrible person on the other hand if I viewed them as nothings and myself as a benevolent dictator who would coax them to modernity. That would result in further radicalization.

One wouldn't expect an Afghan, to go back home to convert them to Christianity. You and I both know that is far-fetched.

The point was that I have no right to, while im practicing medicine, explain to them how their respect for God's prescription regarding theives is less advanced and worthy than jailing Madoff perpetually. They likely wont have a single issue with me practicing medicine - but if I decide its my right to tell them how to govern themselves according to western values and I get objected to - I should have seen it coming.


I say it in the context that it is not a sustainable argument to try and pin the Islamic sentiment of the Afghan people on backwardsness and then to claim that Pakistan taught them this or that and has a major fetish of keeping them backward. I think such an approach only worsens the situation because it allows for more of a fools rush in approach ala Daud or Karzai that will only allow Pakistan to further utilize its past approaches. Honesty in history permits a clear and cogent response that is tactical.
No one can blame a foreigner, although one can not deny that obvious support Pakistan had for elements within the Taliban that were serving the Pakistani interests.

As Karzai also serves foreign interests to implement systems that the data shows runs counter to the aspirations of the Afghan people.

It is illogical for one to claim that the Taliban is a Pakistani puppet, but it is just as illogical to claim that Pakistan did NOT have figures within the Taliban who were serving Pakistani interests. For the 2nd time, it is in the regional interest of both Iran and Pakistan to not see a healthy Afghanistan.

I would say the evidence shows predominantly because of the foreign policy blunders of all of them relative to eachother. Mutual cooperation would hardly diminish their standing. Thats like saying the European Union countries have regional interests and want to see eachother weak in this day and age where none of them have real empires in the traditional context. Britain is hardly concerned with France's reach at this point etc. and vice versa. They have realized they should respect eachothers autonomy and cooperate in the union (though some might say the Cyprus mess shows they were duped in just how much cooperation).

A healthy Afghanistan will reduce imports, stop the illegal flow of water, and compete in various sectors. I've already exhausted this conversation with a leading Turkish intellectual in the world, and we both agreed that it is common sense for regional countries to not want their neighbor flourishing when they depend so much on you. It is all about money and influence at the end of the day for them.

If that is their design and it was made so by the colonialists - why should diaspora of any nation perpetuate that sort of inherently flawed design?

x