West and the Rest- A discourse with Yasmina, Gladstonezai, and faye

[Toramana]

After some wrestling with Barakzai and RTR (which I do occasionally for rejuvenation of my crude fighting spirit), now I am turning to this very important topic that I have on my mind for a while.

But before I start the discussion, I want to tell you about my views if you've not figured them out yet. First and foremost I am a humanist; then a Pashtun and a Muslim Canadian in the modernist, reformist sense i.e. I am not a passive, uncritical subscriber to values and beliefs whether from the East or the West that are archaic, out of tune with the spirit of current time, and in conflict with universal human rights, equality, free speech, inclusiveness, tolerance, compassion, and accommodation.

I am a liberal secular person but I highly detest the type of fake liberalism that doesn't draw its inspiration from indigenous values and world-views but is borrowed in its entirety and aimed at serving non-indigenous interests.

The topic I want to open for discussion is, for the last 500 years, no civilization in history has as much and so thoroughly dominated the world as the Western Civilization has. And this hegemony has not been limited to one sphere of life---rather, it has manifested in every conceivable dimension of human existence whether economy, politics, military, intellect, technology, values, culture, etc.

Although, there is no denying the fact that there also have been many benign impacts of West's domination of the world, but one can also not ignore the fact that it has lead to severe suffocation in the rest of the world as well where the "OTHERS" find their intellectual and material space to be greatly constricted by the West.

Now that the there are some signs of resurgence (mostly economic) in the rest of the world, it sounds West is not willing to share any space with the rest. It seems, the West wants itself to be the locus and center of global power and wealth forever.

What do you think how does this augur well for the future of humanity? Do you think, is there any possibility of change in Western attitude in terms of shared human destiny ? I am asking you people because you can better understand Western attitude than I can.

[Manzareh]

there is no such thing a modernist reformist muslim. either your a muslim or your not a muslim, one cannot twist Islam to suit ones own opinions, either you follow the quran and sunnah, or you dont. simple as that. Do you follow or atleast believe in the quran and sunnah?

thought so.

[Khostai]

Gladstonezai is to stupid to answer this question and Faye is rpobably stoned right now LOL

[Badlun]

Its a good topic for discussion. We may not focus on few individuals here but the whole Pashtun and Muslim lot and any body can opine and share her or his viewpoint. Let us have a general academic discussion not based on personal remarks and usual snubbing and calling names.

I also want to declare my beliefs once again that I am a Muslim who believes and most of the time practices the five pillars of Islam. i believe in amantubillah. Also I believe in the general ethical system of Islam which is almost the same with other major religion of the world as truth, justice, protection of life and property etc. I believe that Shariat if exists as a term is only limited to these spheres of human life. Politics, society, culture, science, economy are out of the scope of Islam or shariat.

I believe that the prophet Muhammad had double role. One as prophet for religion and one as an Arab leader or a common man. We as Muslims must follow him in religion and we are not bound to follow him in his personal or political status. For example we may not go for marrying 12 women or marrying a 9 years old girl or having a beard of his size or wearing exactly what dress or turban he had or what food he liked or how his wives lived.

I consider Pashtunwali to be the culture and society for Pashtuns and they do not need to copy Arabs in their dress, customs, festivals, art, way of life etc.

I believe in secularism as a system where both religion and state receives its due status. Religion for personal or family life while state for politics and economy. For me Taliban is one extreme and atheism another.

I believe in liberalism, democracy, capitalism with state control on few areas like education, health, social justice etc. Science and technology, philosophy, social sciences and all other modern sciences are must for the development and prosperity of a society including Pashtuns.

I consider West as model for democracy, development, human rights, prosperity, rule of law , cleanliness etc but I may not follow some habits like drinking excessively or not having family values at all. I do not blame west for our problems in the past or now or in future. Fault lies with us to let them as colonial powers in past or if they stop our development now. If we are strong enough no body can snatch our right to develop and grow.

[Joey_Gladstonezai]

Toramana sir, I believe that racism or social darwinism is still very much alive in the white Western mind although it may be more discreet. The disease has even inflicted minorities living in the West and they seem to subconsciously subserviate to white ideas of superiority as well. The way to change this dynamic is to realize the flaws in Western ways of materialism, fraud and cheating, violence, and oppression.

The Western lifestyle is all essentially a quest for materialism and nothing more. Any meaningful, humble, spirtual and values based framework is entirely absent. It isn't surprising since there is a lack of accountability toward God. Faith is thus entirely absent in the West because faith and fear of God go hand and hand.

Even though we could all happily live on this Earth with the minimum that is necessary for comfortable living and produce for ourselves without being obliged to trade or interfere in other's lives this is difficult because the current biased economic order has caused a very rich-very poor dynamic where some countries are perpetually doomed with poverty or West-induced violent conflict, others aren't, etc.

[faye]

i don't know toramana. i think you and badlun are more westernised than me. so, what do you think?

[faye]

Gladstonezai is to stupid to answer this question and Faye is rpobably stoned right now LOL

faye probably hasn't been stoned for about 25 years.

[Toramana]

i don't know toramana. i think you and badlun are more westernised than me. so, what do you think?

Lol---When I was making that list in the thread title, I was unsure whether to include yours and Yasmina names especially and that of Gladstonezai generally for it was hard for me to put any one label on you guys. Finally, I did reluctantly because I thought having lived in the system, you may be more informed to enlighten the rest.

My apologies for lumping every thing under the terms West and the Rest. I think this is not correct categorization. This is also not my categorization; rather I borrowed it from the title of the book "West and the Rest" by Havard University professor Neil Fergosun.

I think what is perceived to be problem with West (i.e. eternal world domination) is in reality a problem with two Anglophone states; UK and US (may be to a lesser degree with France as well).

Having said that, I can understand what do you imply by your comment. I know that you have some reservations about unbridled modernization and scientific exploration. I don't know what implications would modernization have in the long run but, faye, believe me, I have seen with my own eyes how it has pulled lot of people out of poverty in the area where I was born.

When I was young my mother used to tell me that in the past when she was growing up famine was common and that we would commonly hear that this or that family couldn't find any food to eat. She used to tell me, the nearest post office to our village was some 13 miles away to which we had to walk.

But last time when I visited my home village, I found my poultry forms with eggs and chickens in abundance enough for an average family to afford to eat for at least a couple of time a week.

I mean I see some benefit of modernization.

[Tjanaparh]

Dear Toraman, why do you adress your question only to singular users?

To me west simply destroyed its culture throughout centuries, it started as agressive imperialism in by greeks and romans and continues till now. I may give you a good thing to read, read the book of Gaius Julius Caesar on the Gallic wars, it is so long ago but seems to be yesterday. And now look what happened to those who were the "barbarians" in that ancient war.
Materialistic culture won't stop, it is too ill like a cancer, or it dies due to lack of nutrients or it destroys everything.

[یاسمینه]

Why me? Am I from the west or from the east or from the rest?
I can try to think about your querry and say what I think. But I am not good for a discussion because I have no need to convince anyone to my views, and I rarely speak in terms of general truths.
So give me time to think about.

[faye]

personally, i love the freedom that have had in my life, both physical and mental. i had an upbringing that allowed me that and taught me to question EVERYTHING. so i have also questioned my own society, about what is good and not good about it.
on the issue of my freedom of mind and body, i have no argument with my 'non-culture'.

being free to live an alternative lifestyle, one incorporates aspects of many cultures and explores different belief systems and ideas about reality, it's origin and meaning. travel has allowed me to feel and see what other cultures are like, not just to have read propaganda that give a miniscule or half view of the 'other'.


you failed to mention the influence that the zionists have in the world toramana. it is many peoples view that they have a powerful influence in media, banking and multinational corporations, that are the ones who, at the moment have the world, in their capitalistic, uncaring, grip. including america.
in fact i read the other day someone calling america, the jewnited states. lol.

anyway, whoever has all that power that they are misusing, have to die sometime and the younger generations will hopefully have a change of heart, or should i say, have a heart, and do a more compassionate job.

easterners have the yearning for all this materialism of the western lifestyle and there is no stopping that, which will also create more hazards for the environment, no matter how much environmentally friendly apparatus is put into place. food and water are 2 of the big issues coming up or already here.

the issues of the world are actually mindboggling if you take a real good look.

i am an optimist and believe that this life is a learning process for an evolution in consciousness. even though some things infuriate me, i believe they are mistakes made by humanity as part of that learning process.

[Badlun]

Dear Toraman, why do you adress your question only to singular users?

To me west simply destroyed its culture throughout centuries, it started as agressive imperialism in by greeks and romans and continues till now. I may give you a good thing to read, read the book of Gaius Julius Caesar on the Gallic wars, it is so long ago but seems to be yesterday. And now look what happened to those who were the "barbarians" in that ancient war.
Materialistic culture won't stop, it is too ill like a cancer, or it dies due to lack of nutrients or it destroys everything.

This is all power game. Imperialism is not only limited to the West. When East had power it also invaded others and established empires. Arabs, Persians, Afghans, Mongols, Turks all were imperialists when they could. Now they cannot so complaining of others. West at least these days do not occupy lands physically.

Materialism has some benefits for material development. Poverty is the root of all evils. If we strike a balance in matter and spirit then we will achieve the ideal. Even in West now a days the craze for spiritualism and Sufism is on increase. In the East mostly we have neither material development nor spiritual. In Wahabi Islam both materialism and Sufism are rejected.

[ufo973]

there is no such thing a modernist reformist muslim. either your a muslim or your not a muslim, one cannot twist Islam to suit ones own opinions, either you follow the quran and sunnah, or you dont. simple as that. Do you follow or atleast believe in the quran and sunnah?

thought so.

100% agreed. Dr.Zakir Naik explains in one of his videos that there is no such thing as moderate muslim. you are either practicing muslim or non practicing muslim.

[randolph85]

you lose all credibility when calling yourself a muslim and a secularist. **** is ridiculous and you want people with an iq over 70 to buy it?

you fear allah and the last day and believe his word to be the supreme truth as given to us in the quran but you believe in a secular life and society? what?

there is a reason that this doesn't go over well with muslims and the people who actually buy into the crap are pundits on western news networks.

[faye]

wouldn't most muslims who choose to live in a secular country, be secular muslims?