DEBATE: Secularist Pashtuns

[JAMALUDEEN]

I agree! But secularism is opposite of any kind of extremism - be it religious or non-religious. It allows you to practice your religion, express your ideas, and gives you freedom. But it teaches you to respect the fact that other people may have different faiths and ideas and you don't have the right to harm them just because they have different faiths or ideas. So in that context, secularim is the best.

This will never work as it is evident through history. You can't just change our way of life which the people have been following for thousands and thousands of years. Islam and our culture go along as they have so many similarities. Remember, what happened when Amir Amannulah Khan brought reforms to Afghanistan that were alien to our religion and our culture. What happened to him? Also, why did the people oppose the commies?

These western ideologies will never work in Afghanistan, well not with a positive result, that is what i think. It might create another war though. It will only take one man to lure everyone to go against the government. The word "Kafir" government will be enough for another war. Majority of the Afghan demographics are Muslims and Imagine, a secular country with muslim population.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

Secularist Pashtuns in my opinion are looking to further divide us. Lets first take a look at what secularism is keeping us distant away from Islam.


Now Sangar, if we are away from Islam. How can that help us leap forward? Islam is what we need.

So you think secularists are dividing Pashtuns?

The only thing thats dividing us are these Jamiet Talibs

Just read what they say about shias and sufis, there are alot of shia and sufi pashtuns who they say must be killed.

Secularism will bring forward all ideoligies and all backgrounds onto one single platform.

Jasmine

Do you agree with Taliban Islam? where by if brought into place would make Pashtun shias and sufis to wear yellow badges?

Relgion is the biggest divider of people

Secularism does not divide anybody, it just divides the sane minded people away from relgionous bigots who like to bring fear into the publics minds so they can control them.

Secularism is brought through Knowledge and debate while Mullahs and their relgionous laws with accordance to Shariat is enforced through war and violence. There is a big difference.

Kind Regards

[MazloomyarMaseed]

Is this the book you're talking about? I've read the reviews and the Christianization recommendation is not mentioned in any of them...

The author of this book is an Evangelical Christian fundamentalist. Of course he'd call for bringing down secularism. He by no means represents popular opinion, especially at the academic level. If he did so, we would see movements against secularism.

What importance do a lone priest's rantings have, that's what I'd like to ask.

Basically hes a Wahabi version of a Christian.

Its funny how he brings up one of them, ignoring the fact that evanglicals are the most radicalised pro zionist movement out there and consider Muslims as children of the anti christ

Kind Regards

[erlangner]

As salaamu aleikoum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

I would like to invite all the "wahhabi" extremists and ISI agents to present their case against the secularists.

Please try not to offend people.

A typical Mullah, who cannot talk sober and polite, just know, how to speak loud, and get attentions.
Waee kanna che yao mullah cha pejando na, no bia warla cha mashwera warkra, che da joomat pa mehrab ke gand okka, bia ba de khalaq opejani. No bia ba kahlqo wayal, ao hagha Mullah che pa mehrab ke ye gand karray wo.
No ta ham hagha kar shoro karay de.

[erlangner]

This will never work as it is evident through history. You can't just change our way of life which the people have been following for thousands and thousands of years. Islam and our culture go along as they have so many similarities. Remember, what happened when Amir Amannulah Khan brought reforms to Afghanistan that were alien to our religion and our culture. What happened to him? Also, why did the people oppose the commies?

These western ideologies will never work in Afghanistan, well not with a positive result, that is what i think. It might create another war though. It will only take one man to lure everyone to go against the government. The word "Kafir" government will be enough for another war. Majority of the Afghan demographics are Muslims and Imagine, a secular country with muslim population.

Brother why do you think that secularism will stop people from practicing Islam. Islam will be in practice, as majority there in our region are muslims. But if someone does not want to rpactice islam, he must not be compelled to believe in or compelled to practice it. See Just an example, when we were in school our teachers forced us to pray Duhar prayer at school. The boys who did not pary were compelled to do it. Then many of them offered prayers without wadoo, just sitting standing for 5 minutes practcie was there. So religion is from faith and heart, so one cannot compelled someone else for it.
Then there must comes democracy along with, and then voters (masses) will decide for a parlaiment and then the parlaiment will decide for constitution and laws. Then everyone will have to respect the constitution and then indiviidual life will be free and every one will be allowed to practcie any religion, any sect and others have to toelarte and can preach but no way use of force will be encouarged.
This way society will go forward in harmony, as in the worldly matter we will be together working in harmony for the development of the country and in religous grounds we will try to please our God as per our religion as well.
Where is the problem hen in such a system.
As I am working with my german colleagues here in lab very well without any problem, but practicing my religion as well without any hurdle.
Why we cannot have such a system there, and why unacceptable there for us my dears.
Is this not much arrogance?

[MazloomyarMaseed]

In Secular America and Britain and Europe, Islam is more tolarated than even in Saudi Arabia.

[amna.]

In Secular America and Britain and Europe, Islam is more tolarated than even in Saudi Arabia.

Exactly. Islam is allowed and treated equally in the USA.

[hairan]

Actually secularism means people getting educated, and becoming civilized and progressive. And all these three values are bound to harm the mullah's business because nobody will buy his bull**** in the name of religion. That's the reason the mullahs are so staunchly against secularism and term it as anti-islamic, etc.

[Mutakhasis]

Secularism is the concept that government or other entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.

In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief. In another sense, it refers to the view that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be based on evidence and fact unbiased by religious influence.[1]

Secularism draws its intellectual roots from Greek and Roman philosophers such as Marcus Aurelius and Epicurus, medieval Muslim polymaths such as Ibn Rushd, Enlightenment thinkers like Denis Diderot, Voltaire, John Locke, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine, and modern freethinkers, agnostics and atheists such as Bertrand Russell and Robert Ingersoll.

Secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now what country in present times is a good example of a Secular state that one can adopt from?

Ibn Rushd was nowhere near a secularist, read his Bidayah, he discusses the Deen in all ways of life including Governing

I would be interested in speaking to the person who thinks Ibn Rushd had exclaimed such concepts, as there are two possibilities about the person

1) That he doesn't know what Islaam is and compares it to Medieval Christian, as many ignorant people do including atheists

2) That he agrees with Islaam and doesn't realize it

[hairan]

This will never work as it is evident through history. You can't just change our way of life which the people have been following for thousands and thousands of years. Islam and our culture go along as they have so many similarities. Remember, what happened when Amir Amannulah Khan brought reforms to Afghanistan that were alien to our religion and our culture. What happened to him? Also, why did the people oppose the commies?

These western ideologies will never work in Afghanistan, well not with a positive result, that is what i think. It might create another war though. It will only take one man to lure everyone to go against the government. The word "Kafir" government will be enough for another war. Majority of the Afghan demographics are Muslims and Imagine, a secular country with muslim population.

Well, this may take time but ultimately people will find that secularism is the solution of their problems. Because of ignorance and illiteracy, now majority of the people pretend that what is happening to them is not religious extremism but foreign conspiracies. But the internet is a magic thing. The more people having access to internet means more people have access to information and knowledge. Access to information and knowledge means people are getting educated and progressive. One day they will be fed up with the mullahs and religious extremism and will stand up against them. That will be the end of the mullahs. It happened the same way in other parts of the world. And it will happen in Afghanistan. It does not matter that Amanullah Khan failed. We may see some more failures. But the ultimate winner is secularism and the loser is religious extremism.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

The so called Afghan Mujahideen failed as well as they turned on themselves.

If one promotes Secularism whereby everybody is represented and protected, do you think these Relgionous groups wont turn on themselves as we see in Pakistan where Wahabist is killing off Shias and Sufis?

Do you think these Relgionous Parties will only stay in our region and wont spread their ideology and hatred outside of the borders?

If these Relgionous ones take over Afghanistan and Pakhtunkhwa, They will obviously use the region to produce more global jihadist militant groups as they did before America came.

Mullah Omar the ISI agent and traitor of Pashtuns allowed Pakistani ISI to train the likes of Lashkar e tayba and other Punjabi and Kashmiri Militant groups to go into India and Attack Indian soliders.

These Relgionous Ones will not reconise their own borders, they will bring their fight for their ideology to other peoples countries which is be very and extremely counter productive for Pashtuns.

Kind Regards

[erlangner]

The religious extremists intend to extend and spread thei violant ideology throughout the world. they claim that They are the only people who can provide peace to the world, and for peace they are allowed to kill anyone deviating from their point of view.
This year a suicide bomb blast in our city killed about 5 and 14 were wounded. Our Imam of Masjid, was telling the people, be thnakful to Allah, caliphat is reaching here as well. And these are the small hurdle, our opponents need to be crushed and then will be eternal peace with the grace of Almighty Allah.
I burst at him, and but the poor illitrate people. dont know if by displeasing mullah, God may be displeased with them, although things are opposite.
Allah will be pleased with us only if we are able to make free Islam from these fanatics and extremists.

[Toramana]

I am very impressed with the level of debate here. Special congratulations to Levane_Zalmay, Qrratugai, StrategicMaseed, Hairan, Enlarger, etc. to enunciate secular ideals such lucidly. I really admire this board for being one of the most enlightened Pashtun forums.

Let me say that secularism by allowing for separation of religion from state and idealogical pluralism in personal domain, lays the ground for broader unity of a society. Religion on the other hand is highly divisive and absolutist. It tends to divide people on sectarian lines.

[hairan]

The religious extremists intend to extend and spread thei violant ideology throughout the world. they claim that They are the only people who can provide peace to the world, and for peace they are allowed to kill anyone deviating from their point of view.
This year a suicide bomb blast in our city killed about 5 and 14 were wounded. Our Imam of Masjid, was telling the people, be thnakful to Allah, caliphat is reaching here as well. And these are the small hurdle, our opponents need to be crushed and then will be eternal peace with the grace of Almighty Allah.
I burst at him, and but the poor illitrate people. dont know if by displeasing mullah, God may be displeased with them, although things are opposite.
Allah will be pleased with us only if we are able to make free Islam from these fanatics and extremists.

I agree with you. In France, at the time when Christians were killing each other to appease God, the same way as our mullahs do now, Voltaire, the famous French philosopher, said: 'Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.'

In our context, we can change it to this: 'Man will never be free until the last General (or warlord) is strangled with the entrails of the last mullah.'

[Mutakhasis]

It's very easy to talk, now give a practical example of a Secular state today that should be followed

A state that doesn't run off of hypocrisy while discussing freedoms of all types yet limits the peoples rights through their impractical laws

If you can't give a practical example then you guys are just useless and a Secular state is a bedtime story book to tell people about