DEBATE: Secularist Pashtuns

[شمله ور خراساني]

As salaamu aleikoum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

I would like to invite all the "wahhabi" extremists and ISI agents to present their case against the secularists.

Please try not to offend people.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

While I am not a ssecualrist Pashtun nor ascribe to the wahabi extremist ISI....isn't the title offensive to them?

[amna.]

As a Muslim, I am against secularism because I think its just not the ideal system.

This is my formula,

Secularism = Distant from your religion (As time progresses)

Distant from your religion = All sort of problems being to happen. You forgot what your religion teaches you.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

amna and Jasmine, secularism only means that a fat Mullah or a pedophile priest won't exert any power on your government. Secularism allows you to go to your mosques, Shi'a mosques, Barelvi mosques, Bohri mosques, Ahle-Hadees mosques, Ismaili mosques, etc freely and it allows you to pray 5 or 6 times a day - it even allows you to fast during Ramadan. So why then will you become distanced from your religion? No one's telling you not to become super-religious.

Secondly, secularism is not a "system". Only a moulvi would call it that. Secularism is a simple philosophy that came up after hundreds of years of religious persecution and wars. It only states that religion has nothing to do with the state because the state's objective is to take care of its population's basic needs and the defense of its territory, among other things. The people are free to worship their gods.

Secularism means that a man can't beat up his wife even if his religion allows him to, he can't deprive his daughter of an education and he can't get her married off at the age of 15 because there are laws against it in secular countries, a man can't circumcise his daughters in secular countries claiming that his religion allows him to, a state can not deem a religion as invalid (or kafir) in a secular state, etc, etc....

amna, you say that problems begin to happen - what problems? Europeans are some of the happiest people on the planet. Our Islamic states haven't even provided our people with the basic necessities of life yet we point fingers at Europeans because of comparatively minor problems. Yes, the "immoralities" happening there are nothing compared to what is happening in the Islamic world. Religion is divisive, secularism isn't.

[Roshina]

Please try not to offend people.

Perhaps others would think you're serious if you didn't make the title of this thread what you've made it: "Secularist Pashtuns are evil nihilist ****bags" isn't offensive in your opinion?

Also, we need to define secularism before we talk about it. The responses here so far suggest that we don't know what secularism is, but whatever it is, it just sounds like something anti-Islam so we don't support it and don't want it. Look into secularism and Islam, or the Islamic view of secularism, or secularism from an Islamic perspective before making any conclusions regarding its being good or bad for us.

[Roshina]

amna and Jasmine, secularism only means that a fat Mullah or a pedophile priest won't exert any power on your government. Secularism allows you to [...]

Exactly. Something makes many Muslims believe that Secularism says, "No mosques, no Islam, no wearing the hijab/veil, no having Islamic education," etc., etc. That's actually completely untrue. Secularism ensures and in fact guarantees the safety and equality of ALL of a nation's people, regardless of their class, religion, race, gender, etc. Secularism allows you to have a mosque, a church, a Hindu temple, a Jewish synagogue, and other places of worship of other religions within a mile of reach other, without any fights occurring among the people of different faiths.

You can still fast, pray (wherever and however you like, even! Imagine THAT!), dress how you believe you're supposed to, and so on, but it's just, the government cannot force you to believe a certain way. All people will be subject to the same punishment for the same crime, regardless of their religion. If the government is gonna announce when Ramadhan begins, it'll also announce when the holy month of another religious group of people will begin as well.

(Oh, this somehow reminds me of how during the "Islamic/Muslim Month" recently (I believe it was in April or March, not sure), my university allowed for a muazzin to come and make the call to prayer. No one raised a hell over it. Everything was SO good, and all was well. However, the uni gives equal attention to all other religious groups as it does to Muslims. This is secularism at its best!)

Secularism is actually far more Islamic than some of us have been told to believe, by the way - because it allows freedom of religion, freedom of thought, seeing all people as equal, etc., etc. Much of what Islam allows is not present at all in Muslim countries that claim to be Islamic, but almost all of it is present in non-Muslim countries that are secularist.

[Roshina]

I dont get this part. can you elaborate? thanks

Sure - but I'd have to repeat much of what I said in my post before I made that observation.

Basically, secularism allows for practically everything that Islam allows: freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of opinion, education, equality of people, etc., etc.

When France says that Muslim women can't wear the veil, it has nothing to do with secularism. In fact, it's going against secularism. (I recently read an article on how it's basically France's way of setting aside its serious issues and giving attention to the practice of a mere 20 women or so who choose to cover their faces in public.) Secularism says that all people of a nation -- regardless of their religion -- gets an equal say in how the government should be run; in other words, just becuase you're a Muslim and most of the officials of the government happen to be Muslims as well, doesn't mean you get more say or something.

Secularism forbids people to wage war against each other just because they're not following the same religion/sect that others want them to follow. This means that Ahmadis and Ismailis would be as safe and secure as the Sunnis in a Muslim country would be.

Secularism has nothing to do with putting a ban on how you dress or whether the call to prayer can be made or not -- and especially in a Muslim country, of course the call to prayer would be made in public and loudly.

Also, secularism shouldn't be mixed with "westernization" (seeing how so many of us hate the idea of westernization and being western). For instance, Muslim banks won't be forced to apply interest in their system just because it's now in a secular country; it'd still have to respect the standards and beliefs of the people it caters to. But at the same time, banks will not be FORBIDDEN from using interest if they want to. In other words, the Muslims wouldn't be allowed by a secular state to destroy the banks that allow interest. See, if the bankers know how to do business, then they'll know that in order to attract more customers, they'll have to adhere to the typical Muslim beliefs, if it's in a Muslim community; hence, it'll HAVE to avoid interest, or at least not provide it to Muslim customers.

You see what I mean?

This is Islamic in the sense that Islam, too, is completely against compulsion in anything. Many, many verses in the Quran promote harmony between Muslim and non-Muslim groups of people, and we have numerous hadith reports that show that the Prophet had good relations with the Jews and other non-Muslims of his community. In a secular state run mostly by Muslims, this would become more than possible (the idea of equality of all Muslims and non-Muslims would actually even be implemented), and we woudln't have to tell non-Muslims that they cannot build their churches/temples/etc. in our country.

I'm sorta repeating myself, but I hope you get the idea

It sounds idealistic, lol ... but it actually IS far more Islamic than the government laws of Muslim countries today. I've read arguments on how the U.S. Constitution is actually more Islamic than the constitutions of most Muslim countries! According to some who support this argument, the U.S. Constitution borrowed many of its laws from the Quran.

[Mutakhasis]

What's secularism?

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

What's secularism?

Secularism is the concept that government or other entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.

In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief. In another sense, it refers to the view that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be based on evidence and fact unbiased by religious influence.[1]

Secularism draws its intellectual roots from Greek and Roman philosophers such as Marcus Aurelius and Epicurus, medieval Muslim polymaths such as Ibn Rushd, Enlightenment thinkers like Denis Diderot, Voltaire, John Locke, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine, and modern freethinkers, agnostics and atheists such as Bertrand Russell and Robert Ingersoll.

Secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[inqilab]

Before debating. i suggest the secularists read a book called 'America in Danger'.

It is put together by a committee of eighteen specialists in different fields. One of the most important recommendations given in the book to strengthen America . And to protect it from destruction was to increase religious education in the American student. And to cultivate religious sentiments in them. They said this would protect them from the corruption that prevents them from making their contribution to society.

Btw these people are not muslims. And they admit secularist is just a failure.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Is this the book you're talking about? I've read the reviews and the Christianization recommendation is not mentioned in any of them...

The author of this book is an Evangelical Christian fundamentalist. Of course he'd call for bringing down secularism. He by no means represents popular opinion, especially at the academic level. If he did so, we would see movements against secularism.

What importance do a lone priest's rantings have, that's what I'd like to ask.

[Roshina]

Btw these people are not muslims. And they admit secularist is just a failure.

That's their opinion, Inqilab wrora. I'm glad you have read their perspective (that secularism is a failure), but you should also look into the perspective of those who believe otherwise. That way, you can then decide for yourself rather than directing us to only ONE side of the debate. Direct us to the other as well, kana.

[hairan]

For past many centuries, our society, our people and countries, the entire region, have been suffering from religious extremism in one or the other way. For people who have some logic, that is more than enough evidence to understand that religious extremism and narrowmindedness is nothing but destruction.
Secularism is the only way to save the society and protect everyone. Secularism allows everybody to practice their religions, faiths, and ideas, but with respect to others. While religious extremists cannot tolerate their own brothers if they have different views. That's clear enough.
Secularim is the only solution of our problems.

[tor_khan]

While religious extremists cannot tolerate their own brothers if they have different views. That's clear enough.

That is increasingly true, though to be honest extremists of any persuasion, religious or not are bad news. Narrow people are ... well ... just narrow.

[hairan]

That is increasingly true, though to be honest extremists of any persuasion, religious or not are bad news. Narrow people are ... well ... just narrow.

I agree! But secularism is opposite of any kind of extremism - be it religious or non-religious. It allows you to practice your religion, express your ideas, and gives you freedom. But it teaches you to respect the fact that other people may have different faiths and ideas and you don't have the right to harm them just because they have different faiths or ideas. So in that context, secularim is the best.