TTP condemns Grossman’s statement about Durand Line

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Ask the captive whose testimonial, Taliiban lovers all over endorsed as proof of Taliban's successful campaign. No cherry picking now

Living life with blinders on must be really nice for you eh Khushal?

'US created forces it spends money fighting against' - Taliban ex-captive - YouTube

[khushal]

Speaking the truth does not make someone a Taliban lover. No one is denying what this guy is saying. I have posted this video before.

Dont change the argument. Answer my questions in my last post. Changing the argument is verification of being checkmated.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Call something "truth" when it has scant evidence in support of it, and there's overwhelming evidence which refutes it. Has motivations.



There's no change in argument; you made a statement, I responded, so if the subject changed, it was on your account.

So I guess you concede checkmate by that reasoning? Very well then, I accept victory.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

You do realize Ahmad Shah Abdali was nurtured by the persians and then destroyed the persians to the ground.

WHAT?!?!?!??!??! joke right? He took Herat sure, but the rest of Persia was business as usual, AND he put Persians at the helm of control of all governmental posts, remember the Qizilbash? They're by culture and identity Persians (even though Qizil Bash is a Turkish word)

I'd even argue that Ahmad Shah Abdali was quite possibly the first TRAITOR to Pashtuns as a people ; as he abandoned a Pashtun-centered society, paved way for the propagation of Persian-linguism predominating Pashtun elites, and he HELPED route out a Pashtun Expansionist force in the form of the Hotaks out of Iran and out of their seat of power in Qandahar.

****ty example Khushal

[khushal]

you have responded with a video that I agree with and cant respond rationally

[khushal]

WHAT?!?!?!??!??! joke right? He took Herat sure, but the rest of Persia was business as usual, AND he put Persians at the helm of control of all governmental posts, remember the Qizilbash? They're by culture and identity Persians (even though Qizil Bash is a Turkish word)

I'd even argue that Ahmad Shah Abdali was quite possibly the first TRAITOR to Pashtuns as a people ; as he abandoned a Pashtun-centered society, paved way for the propagation of Persian-linguism predominating Pashtun elites, and he HELPED route out a Pashtun Expansionist force in the form of the Hotaks out of Iran and out of their seat of power in Qandahar.

****ty example Khushal

I gave you two examples and I can give you more if you like.

but he took northeastern iran and crushed any persian influence. Uniting your own people is hardly a trait of a traitor.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

WHAT?!?!?!??!??! joke right? He took Herat sure, but the rest of Persia was business as usual, AND he put Persians at the helm of control of all governmental posts, remember the Qizilbash? They're by culture and identity Persians (even though Qizil Bash is a Turkish word)

I'd even argue that Ahmad Shah Abdali was quite possibly the first TRAITOR to Pashtuns as a people ; as he abandoned a Pashtun-centered society, paved way for the propagation of Persian-linguism predominating Pashtun elites, and he HELPED route out a Pashtun Expansionist force in the form of the Hotaks out of Iran and out of their seat of power in Qandahar.

****ty example Khushal

Scimitar

His son Timur Shah really was the one that made the mistake when he relocated the capital out of the Pashtun heartland into Kabul. But he himself centralized his power in Qandahar with a loose and appropriate tribal confederation of Pashtuns.

To date, I have been trying my utmost to find the the evidence for the statement that, like Karzai and his Dynacorps gaurds, Ahmad Shah had Qizilbash gaurds. Apparently it is not in his tarikh.

The reason is that he had some very powerful tribal support in his era including Musa Dunki, Shah Waliullah, Sultan Haji Muhammad, etc. so why use Qizilbashi gaurds in a sunni area that had deep anti shiite sentiment after Gurgin and the Shah Abbas excesses?

Also lets not get ahead of ourselves... he was imprisoned by Husain Hotak.

There is a letter in istanbul preserved to date where he lets his feeling for Nadir Shah out and refers to his tyranny.

I agree history should not be white washed to equate our forefathers to the level of Isa and his disciples or the Prophet and the Sahabaa - but Id like to think that they were brilliant men who did the best in hard circumstances. That Pashtun culture was a very spartan one and the strong survived...

Im very surprised you have this opinion our a man who, if Pashtun, was looked up in a book, he would be the picture definition:
Loyal, Brave, Warrior, Poet-Scholar, respectful to his elders, etc.

I agree that the foundation was somewhat weak where the empire collapsed within 2 generations - but Alexander's empire fractured with his death so its hard to say that takes away greatness.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

ok you gave me Khushal Khan Khattak as an example and he was nurtured by the Mughals? I saw that he was appointed by Shah Jehan to keep Pashtun tribes sundued and he rebelled. Not exactly the same thing as being nutured/trained/indoctrinated etc. etc.

Again bad example.

You can give many examples I'm sure they don't even have anything comparable to the Taliban.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Scimitar

His son Timur Shah really was the one that made the mistake when he relocated the capital out of the Pashtun heartland into Kabul. But he himself centralized his power in Qandahar with a loose and appropriate tribal confederation of Pashtuns.

To date, I have been trying my utmost to find the the evidence for the statement that, like Karzai and his Dynacorps gaurds, Ahmad Shah had Qizilbash gaurds. Apparently it is not in his tarikh.

The reason is that he had some very powerful tribal support in his era including Musa Dunki, Shah Waliullah, Sultan Haji Muhammad, etc. so why use Qizilbashi gaurds in a sunni area that had deep anti shiite sentiment after Gurgin and the Shah Abbas excesses?

Also lets not get ahead of ourselves... he was imprisoned by Husain Hotak.

There is a letter in istanbul preserved to date where he lets his feeling for Nadir Shah out and refers to his tyranny.

I agree history should not be white washed to equate our forefathers to the level of Isa and his disciples or the Prophet and the Sahabaa - but Id like to think that they were brilliant men who did the best in hard circumstances. That Pashtun culture was a very spartan one and the strong survived...

Im very surprised you have this opinion our a man who, if Pashtun, was looked up in a book, he would be the picture definition:
Loyal, Brave, Warrior, Poet-Scholar, respectful to his elders, etc.

I agree that the foundation was somewhat weak where the empire collapsed within 2 generations - but Alexander's empire fractured with his death so its hard to say that takes away greatness.

Well you can say even Shah Shuja was brilliant in his so called "State craft" and managing to survive despite all the circumstances he was in. But history is as it is.


Abdali, joined up with persians to #1, help route out the Hotaks in Iran; so that an Iranian monarchy can ascend, #2 Helped the Iranian ruler conquer Qandahar so that the Hotaks, Pashtuns , were not in power. #3 established a Qizilbash class of aristocrats in Afghanistan.


I understand "why" he did it; but it hardly serves Khushal's point


In the end, Abdali was just a man and was surviving in the political circumstances he was in. But hardly an example of rugged rebellion against the hands that nurtured him.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Well you can say even Shah Shuja was brilliant in his so called "State craft" and managing to survive despite all the circumstances he was in. But history is as it is.


Abdali, joined up with persians to #1, help route out the Hotaks in Iran; so that an Iranian monarchy can ascend, #2 Helped the Iranian ruler conquer Qandahar so that the Hotaks, Pashtuns , were not in power. #3 established a Qizilbash class of aristocrats in Afghanistan.


I understand "why" he did it; but it hardly serves Khushal's point


In the end, Abdali was just a man and was surviving in the political circumstances he was in. But hardly an example of rugged rebellion against the hands that nurtured him.

But how do you view Nadir Qoli Beg? He was a sunni, who was irreligious but was over turning and deflecting Iranian shiite aspirations. He was sort of a brigant King and not your typical Iranian monarch. Ahmad Shah was but a boy when he was saved by Nadir. When Nadir died, he paved his own way and his Pashtun centric state didnt pay any tribute to Persia.

What are your thoughts on his very poignant ode to the Hotaks though? A commonly misconveyed line in his poem is "Da Farid aw da Ashraf Daur ba bya shee" where people mis quote and say Hamid instead of Ashraf for some reason.

But he was paying homage to Ashraf Hotak in that line and declares:
"The eras of Farid and Ashraf will return"(implication of that bieng in his personage).

Hardly sounds like he was purposefully trying to degrade Hotaks when he really gives them praise.

In yet another poem I posted on this website he has a more clear line where he says that it "Ka Awdaal we ka Khilji we..." that is it doesnt matter whether Its an Abdali or a Ghilzai the individual is still a Pashtun. I mean you cannot be clearer than that right?

I thought you admired Ahmad Shah Baba for certain tendencies as you said in the past.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

how do you have a Pashtun-centric state with Qizilbash aristocrats running your administration? a few couplets are one thing, but actions are louder than words. I understand Hotaks and Abdalis were rivals, but he helped a Persian overtake Pashtuns. .....what makes him any different than Karzai or Shah Shuja?

and he praised Ashraf, didn't Ashraf kill Shah Mahmoud Hotak? Ashraf was the treacherous Hotak who allowed the chance for a Persian uprising.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

how do you have a Pashtun-centric state with Qizilbash aristocrats running your administration? a few couplets are one thing, but actions are louder than words. I understand Hotaks and Abdalis were rivals, but he helped a Persian overtake Pashtuns. .....what makes him any different than Karzai or Shah Shuja?

and he praised Ashraf, didn't Ashraf kill Shah Mahmoud Hotak? Ashraf was the treacherous Hotak who allowed the chance for a Persian uprising.

I Havent seen the evidence for the Qizilbash gaurds/admins though in contemporary sources.

Im reading the book Haris posted about the Hotaks and do not know the answer to your question about the Hotaks (i.e I am ignorant about their reign beyond Mir Wais's kicking Gurgin out)

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Honestly, I don't even care, I'm not a Pashtun-centrist, even though I'm a Hotak by lineage, I can look at history objective and say the Hotaks had some good points at certain times; but they did some awful **** to people who didn't deserve it and that deserves condemnation from any ethically conscious human being. I won't portray them as heroic characters, Only true hero was Mir-Wais Khan and that is because he liberated his people. However he fostered the tyranny of others and his son definitely did some terrible things.

Also couple the fact that all Ghilizi are really "adopted" Pashtuns anyways, there's no real incentive for me to be Pashtun centric ...but being that we play such a profound role in Pashtun history and it's reflection in modern society; these examples demonstrate just how flawed our history is and how we develop these romanticizations which are just not true.

[khushal]

ok you gave me Khushal Khan Khattak as an example and he was nurtured by the Mughals? I saw that he was appointed by Shah Jehan to keep Pashtun tribes sundued and he rebelled. Not exactly the same thing as being nutured/trained/indoctrinated etc. etc.

Again bad example.

You can give many examples I'm sure they don't even have anything comparable to the Taliban.

Your stupid idiot, your identity crises has made you insane. We are not comparing the taliban to anyone. you keep losing focus. we are talking about how groups are nurtured and then rebel against the nurturer. WE are talking about the TTP and how they are controlled by the ISI with remote controls, try to keep focus.

Abdali and Khushal Khattak are perfect examples. you have no real proof that abdali created a persian centric state, why would he subdue the grandson of nadir shah, shah rukh from herat and sack the persian cities of Nashipur and Mashhad and reconstitute them into the Durrani Empire. Both men were promoting the unity of their people against bigger threats. Lincoln killed more Americans than all wars america has fought combined and burned towns and citied like Atlanta to the ground but is the most respected leader in Americas history because he kept his people united. Same with Mao and Stalin. You could put them under a microscope and all you will find is that they had faults and were human.

[khushal]

Scimitar

His son Timur Shah really was the one that made the mistake when he relocated the capital out of the Pashtun heartland into Kabul. But he himself centralized his power in Qandahar with a loose and appropriate tribal confederation of Pashtuns.

I always thought he had no choice because he kept facing rebellion in kandahar and administration of the empire was difficult and moved to a more stable city of kabul or am I wrong.

- but Alexander's empire fractured with his death so its hard to say that takes away greatness.

I think it has more to do with the lasting impact the leader has on the region and on the future. You have leaders like Washington, Lincoln, FDR who are remembered because they lasting impact on the nation's future. With that regard just like Alexander, we can count Abdali and Khushal Khattak as well.