TTP condemns Grossman’s statement about Durand Line

[khushal]

when the U.S. props dictators it is based on the narrative of capitalism; so most people acquiesce to it

so whats your point. If the Taliban are for sale to the highest bidder, why would the capitalists not do what they do best, buy them and keep capitalism going.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I think in an indirect way they are.

Taliban are cannon fodder, the most chaos they create, better for capitalism; because capitalism can swoop down to the rescue.

[khushal]

Your contradicting yourself. First you said they are not and now you say they are.

[khushal]

Scimitar,

Im no expert; but I think that Comrade's discussion here about Dadullah proves the point I will make:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthr...mrade+dadullah

"When and where have I denied Taliban's Paki association. In Dadullah's case it clearly is demonstrated that he was only using Pakistan to his own end. When he recongnised Pakistan's nefarious goals and being a dishonest entity, he sought its punishment by attacking its mercenary army and killing the malnourished souls. It is the same logic all around for every party, U.S., Pakistan, Taliban, Iran and every one else: my enemy's enemy is my friend. He was being helped by the Iranians at the end. I respect his courage for taking on U.S. and Pakistani ARMIES - not mlitias of his own type. I simply said I respect him for his fighting courage and abilities. I have never condoned his suecide bombings and his other terrorist tactics in that regard."

Each of these groups are a composite of multiple subgroups. Each village has their own local cleric/mullah. Branches of the TTP derived from Ahmadzai Wazir and then predominant leadership shifted to their traditional rivals the Mahsud (people over emphasize rivalry as most Mahsuds and Wazirs will say this amounts to good natured ribbing with some occasional shooting). Then there are still other sub groups that are classified as militants/Taliban such as Abdullah Mahsuds old followers and Qari Zain, which got into skirmishes with the Hakimullah group.

On the Quetta/Kandahar side of the conflict; various tribal groups like Noorzai families joined Taliban due to conflicts with Achakzai groups.

That is why I strongly feel that Comrade's point above is the closest to the truth; these guys are not automotans that have ISI chips in their brain data banks. Their viewpoints and actions may not be palatable to both the fervent Islamist and/or the secularist but they are groups with their own agendas and loose affiliations.

So short of the long about the bidder question; Yes, I think that as the Communists become Secularists here justify American Aid as in the words of Lavanay Zalmay "even taking aid from Satan himself to get rid of your enemy" these guys think in the same way. Some of them are pissed at Army checkpoints and abuses in Pashtun areas; some of them have personal gripes; some of them have a stated mission of installing a regime in Islamabad suitable to their worldview.

The risk people run in assuming the automotan brain chip verison of Talibano is that every group including Hezbi and local militias get lumped into one super category that allows NATO, Kabul, and Islamabad to kill anyone and everything that may oppose their ISAF mission.

Perhaps a data base of the organizations needs to be put together with reported links between the groups to avoid the latter.

Bottom line: The risk one runs of simply dismissing a Wazir boy reported to be a part of TTP as an automotan is to lose someone that may force Pakistan to understand it risks fragmenting itself if it continues to treat its Pashtuns as expendable.

The risk Kabul runs of painting that Noorzai boy as an extremist that joined a local group that goes after Razaq because the latter mowed down a relative is targeting someone with a rather legitimate gripe who could not attain justice due to the deck being stacked.

I mean how do you explain Fazlullah? Soldat will explain these groups away with conspiracy theories of Pakistan organizing hits on its own installations and people in order to lull suspicion. At this point, Pakistan appears to care less if people point out links and that is why in the face of massive pressure it does nothing about Haqqani.

Comrad is exactly right and the insurgency is much bigger than the TTP or the Afghan Taliban. It reminds of a story that was told to me that took place in paktya. The NATO cammander in the area was being changed and the old captain was introducing the new one to the people in the area. An old man wearing old dusty, ripped cloths, and old worn out chapal approach the captain and told him "mo jzwund kai po gharaz na larai, dai mo karo(homes) nai bo na razai, ka cha te da khabara na manai, ah ghra kai(pointing at the mountain) tupak sara bo der da nast wum." The captain was asked if he was going to arrest the old man, the captain replied, "what will that accomplish, all these people are thinking the same thing, he just had the balls to say it to my face."

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Your contradicting yourself. First you said they are not and now you say they are.

no I said they don't directly fund them, indirect funding vis a vis Pakistan, Afghanistan isn't a contradiction

[khushal]

Your backtracking, your using the term indirect. Whether its direct or indirect, you are contradictating yourself.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

no, if I was back tracking I'd say that they directly fund them.

it is simple logic .... designate p= direct , ~ p= indirect, p=/=~p so there can't be a contradiction by logical operation

[khushal]

direct or indirect, its still funding therefore a contradiction. your trying to introduce a new variable into the equation.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

why not the main headquarters?

Im not sure if ISI has an equivalent of Langley. I would venture to say that a Pak Nuc facility is a crown jewel and MORE important than that. Also, in that article is the lengthy list of ISI agents by name that were killed in the Peshawar attack.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA, if there is evidence of the NDS involvement, that doesn't trump the ISI orchestration of them. We can only speculate on what is playing out between the scene but that's what the picture sets up

possible scenarios

ISI, well aware of the NDS eagerness is using it to gain greater inroads, it is a good strategic tactic.

It still doesnt take into account NDS's statement to Rashid. In the past you cited Rashid as making air tight cases and as being a very reliable resource. At this point, if Fazl and his groupies are not conducting attacks against Afghanistan and are doing things like the Malala operation then Rashid appears to be interpreting NDS's statement to him in the same way that Admin Khan interprets the reciprocity of attacks. In fact the Malala attack was utilized by NDS and CIA and to really ratchet up the pressure on pakistan to conduct a FATA operation - hardly something Pakistan wants to undertake.

Its too complicated and rather unsubstantiated to say that there is this master plot where ISI sends Fazl across the border to be utilized by NDS against themselves.

The insider attacks aren't even an equivalent here because NDS is not some conventional force - Fazl isnt wearing an NDS uniform and having tea with Atmar or his replacement - Fazl is in the field doing his "Fazl thing" if Rashid is accurate.

[khushal]

If the NDS utilized Fazl into shooting malalai into pressuring pakistan to start military operations in North Waziristan, then it would be in their interest to do operation against the TTP and not Haqqani. Since Fazl has sanctuaries in Kunar and those operations would not really accomplish to much in the long run against Fazl, it seems likely that the NDS wants to force the ISI into exchanging Haqqani for Fazl or keep an ongoing insurgency for both countries.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

It still doesnt take into account NDS's statement to Rashid. In the past you cited Rashid as making air tight cases and as being a very reliable resource. .

Sure it does

ISI co-opts the Paki Taliban, gains the trust of NDS, ISI ends up with an upperhand.

what isn't covered here?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

direct or indirect, its still funding therefore a contradiction. your trying to introduce a new variable into the equation.

right but your contention was to go directly to them; which is another matter entirely.

co-opting througgh Pakistan, its hands are clean. and I'm using "clean" very loosely.

You can't make something contradictory which logically doesn't contradict; logic doesn't work that way.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Sure it does

ISI co-opts the Paki Taliban, gains the trust of NDS, ISI ends up with an upperhand.

what isn't covered here?

The utter lack of proof for the assertion is not covered.

Why not then just pose this theory:
CIA is ISI which is NDS and the differences are in fact a smoke screen to feed an international military industrial complex?

And how is killing 17 of your own field agents in Peshawar and staging an attack on an important nuke facility an upper hand? I am sure even Rashid would tell you that Pakistan is paranoid about appearning lax regarding protecting its nukes. The day that attack occurred news media in the US erupted about the safety of the nukes and Obama addressed the scenario of a Pakistani meltdown post the attack as the most frightening thing to him.

Also if NDS is that compromised then whats to say karzai himself is not ISI or affiliated with it?

Also, you havent addressed why Rashid doesnt give space to this theory.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

The utter lack of proof for the assertion is not covered.

That's true ..I never claimed it is fact ... it is a valid scenario though, my point was that your defense doesn't exonerate Paki Taliban of ISI constructs.

Rashid's remark doesn't really "trump" my theory, all Rashid says is NDS is giving safe haven and support to the Paki Taliban.

like I said , what ground isn't covered here? The Pak Taliban can still be ISI manufactured stooges while being NDS connected.