TTP condemns Grossman’s statement about Durand Line

[khushal]

There are multiple reports that state the the Fazl guy was taking orders from Hakimullah Masud but now the Pakistani government claims that the Fazl guy is leading the TTP and they claim that that ISAF have refused to take action against him in Kunar and Nuristan.

But if the TAliban are for sale whether its the Afghan TAliban or the TTP, then logically the US would be their master because the US would be the highest bidder.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

but the U.S. don't seem interested to bid, that may leak and end up with immense backlash, Pakistan and Afghanistan however, buying people off is the norm.

[khushal]

The occupation wont create backlash but buying off militants will?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

yes, especially when you think that would be every conspiracy theorists wet dream "look the U.S. funds AlQaeda and Taliban after condemning terrorism and having a war on terror"

yep backlash.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

you could be right then. But does this mean that the ISI product is now being bought off by the highest bidder?

Scimitar,

Im no expert; but I think that Comrade's discussion here about Dadullah proves the point I will make:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthr...mrade+dadullah

"When and where have I denied Taliban's Paki association. In Dadullah's case it clearly is demonstrated that he was only using Pakistan to his own end. When he recongnised Pakistan's nefarious goals and being a dishonest entity, he sought its punishment by attacking its mercenary army and killing the malnourished souls. It is the same logic all around for every party, U.S., Pakistan, Taliban, Iran and every one else: my enemy's enemy is my friend. He was being helped by the Iranians at the end. I respect his courage for taking on U.S. and Pakistani ARMIES - not mlitias of his own type. I simply said I respect him for his fighting courage and abilities. I have never condoned his suecide bombings and his other terrorist tactics in that regard."

Each of these groups are a composite of multiple subgroups. Each village has their own local cleric/mullah. Branches of the TTP derived from Ahmadzai Wazir and then predominant leadership shifted to their traditional rivals the Mahsud (people over emphasize rivalry as most Mahsuds and Wazirs will say this amounts to good natured ribbing with some occasional shooting). Then there are still other sub groups that are classified as militants/Taliban such as Abdullah Mahsuds old followers and Qari Zain, which got into skirmishes with the Hakimullah group.

On the Quetta/Kandahar side of the conflict; various tribal groups like Noorzai families joined Taliban due to conflicts with Achakzai groups.

That is why I strongly feel that Comrade's point above is the closest to the truth; these guys are not automotans that have ISI chips in their brain data banks. Their viewpoints and actions may not be palatable to both the fervent Islamist and/or the secularist but they are groups with their own agendas and loose affiliations.

So short of the long about the bidder question; Yes, I think that as the Communists become Secularists here justify American Aid as in the words of Lavanay Zalmay "even taking aid from Satan himself to get rid of your enemy" these guys think in the same way. Some of them are pissed at Army checkpoints and abuses in Pashtun areas; some of them have personal gripes; some of them have a stated mission of installing a regime in Islamabad suitable to their worldview.

The risk people run in assuming the automotan brain chip verison of Talibano is that every group including Hezbi and local militias get lumped into one super category that allows NATO, Kabul, and Islamabad to kill anyone and everything that may oppose their ISAF mission.

Perhaps a data base of the organizations needs to be put together with reported links between the groups to avoid the latter.

Bottom line: The risk one runs of simply dismissing a Wazir boy reported to be a part of TTP as an automotan is to lose someone that may force Pakistan to understand it risks fragmenting itself if it continues to treat its Pashtuns as expendable.

The risk Kabul runs of painting that Noorzai boy as an extremist that joined a local group that goes after Razaq because the latter mowed down a relative is targeting someone with a rather legitimate gripe who could not attain justice due to the deck being stacked.

I mean how do you explain Fazlullah? Soldat will explain these groups away with conspiracy theories of Pakistan organizing hits on its own installations and people in order to lull suspicion. At this point, Pakistan appears to care less if people point out links and that is why in the face of massive pressure it does nothing about Haqqani.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Another forum member's commentary really doesn't reveal much to me than that forum member's perception.

I don't see TTP assault of rank and fle Pakis while Islamabad remains virtually untouched as evidence they're anti-ISI or not manufactured by the ISI.

Likewise I don't see the NDS trying to placate the TTP by paying it off and giving it some beds to sleep as meaning they are independent of the ISI.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Another forum member's commentary really doesn't reveal much to me than that forum member's perception.

I don't see TTP assault of rank and fle Pakis while Islamabad remains virtually untouched as evidence they're anti-ISI or not manufactured by the ISI.

Likewise I don't see the NDS trying to placate the TTP by paying it off and giving it some beds to sleep as meaning they are independent of the ISI.

NDS isnt trying to placate TTP. The theory as Rashid floats it and as NDS concurs per his quote, is that they are using them as an assett - not as a bribe to not attack.

Also, what are your thoughts about major Pakistani assetts that have been hit, especially sensitive military targets.

http://www.businessinsider.com/gunme...weapons-2012-8

TTP subsequently took credit for the attack.

Pakistan's major hypersenstivity is the appearance of being unable to gaurd their nuclear weapons. This attack and subsequent American comments led them to disperse their arsenal. It would be exceedingly unlikely that Pakistan would risk a false flag operation to make itself appear to be unable to control its most prized deterrent. That is one key aspect of the Pak military etablishment that all, Islamists, Kabul elites, Islamabad critics, Americans, etc all agree on: Pakistan is keen on maintaing a presentation of being able to seemlessly gaurd their weaponry.

Across the years multiple Pakistani military and ISI sites have been hit; hence the tit for tat Admin is referring to.

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-sho...s/20120817.htm

Here is an article of analysis regarding the hits onthe Panjabi heartland:

http://www.ctc.usma.edu/posts/pakist...jabi-heartland

Unfortunately, the Soldat Theory of false flag operations has absolutely no evidence to bare it out. Rather Pakistani's behavior towards Haqqani shows Pakistan is beyond caring about perceptions. Based on that fact, coupled to Rashid's discussion with NDS ---> It appears that NDS is in the game.

Explain why you think its impossible that Rashid is right in this situation specifically? Am I missing something?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Placating can also mean also to paying it to attack, just not them. Which only makes Taliban corrupt and greedy as the rest.

Attacking, but with very little success, I mean if the Taliban forces converged on one military outpost like that, they stand a chance of overrunning it, but the fact is, they only make lazy attempts, lackadaisical strike at best. My contention still holds, the Taliban has not made any serious aggressions on the establishment, just poor workers and laborers a few replaceable officials and the like.

I see nothing in those links where the ISI headquarters has been hit?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Placating can also mean also to paying it to attack, just not them. Which only makes Taliban corrupt and greedy as the rest.

Attacking, but with very little success, I mean if the Taliban forces converged on one military outpost like that, they stand a chance of overrunning it, but the fact is, they only make lazy attempts, lackadaisical strike at best. My contention still holds, the Taliban has not made any serious aggressions on the establishment, just poor workers and laborers a few replaceable officials and the like.

I see nothing in those links where the ISI headquarters has been hit?

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/politics/14-Nov-2009/ISI-Peshawar-HQ-truckbombed

Another site they hit was outside Karachi. Also you yourself noted that Talibano attacks,even well planned ones have a lower success rate with more Talibs dying than targets... Why would you expect resounding success at the most prized base in Pakistan?

Also what would you say to Rashid about his NDS contacts statement?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

why not the main headquarters?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

BA, if there is evidence of the NDS involvement, that doesn't trump the ISI orchestration of them. We can only speculate on what is playing out between the scene but that's what the picture sets up

possible scenarios

ISI, well aware of the NDS eagerness is using it to gain greater inroads, it is a good strategic tactic.

[khushal]

yes, especially when you think that would be every conspiracy theorists wet dream "look the U.S. funds AlQaeda and Taliban after condemning terrorism and having a war on terror"

yep backlash.

Just like when the US condemns dictators and praises democracy and at the same time openly funds dictators that crush democracy. A child could come up with a better theory than yours.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

when the U.S. props dictators it is based on the narrative of capitalism; so most people acquiesce to it

[SiiNii]

when the U.S. props dictators it is based on the narrative of capitalism; so most people acquiesce to it

Most people in the US acquiesce because they don't give a damn or, they are willingly and unbelievably ignorant. You have to admit that this :

Just like when the US condemns dictators and praises democracy and at the same time openly funds dictators that crush democracy. ...

is a historical fact. Even the most patriotic American will admit this has occurred.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Most people in the US acquiesce because they don't give a damn or, they are willingly and unbelievably ignorant. You have to admit that this :



is a historical fact. Even the most patriotic American will admit this has occurred.

But the national conscience has been placated since it is in terms of "it was for the the good of the country and the world over"

listen to how many Americans were saying "Hosni Mubarak is a dictator, but he supports Israel and he prevents the fundamentalists from taking over". Even now people are saying that.

That sort of spin doctoring would be tough if you're trying to pay off the people you're fighting. ALTHOUGH it sort of worked in Iraq. It won't work with 14 year old girl shooting Taliban.