Amrullah and Abdullah in a sticky situation

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA, what you have to realize is the CIA is a terrific institution for the USA, and the same goes for the ISI for Pakistan. These institutions assert their influence in the region. We might not like the ISI, CIA, Mossad but you have to realize nationals of those nations support these secretive groups. For example, the CIA in sense 'protects US interests' now any die-hard American would gracefully embrace this organization since it's a detergent.

ISI primary goal is to serve Pakistani interests, wouldn't you agree that they've done a tremendous job for their nation? Obviously these organizations are what you call them, they've tortured innocent people, killed people based on assumptions, but what is their end-goal?

Yes, they are "the men standing gaurd on the hill" Admin. I guess as engineers we can see the logic of it... but the emotional side of me sees the horrible things these folks do against humanity and thinks that there must be a better way.

One cannot deny that the NDS is learning quickly with its strategy of using anti Pakistani TTP elements such as Fazlullah (humourous since the ANP/PMAP folks said before that they were Panjabies in disguise) to play a similar tactical game against Pakistan.

I think the difference with NDS is that its an organization being utilized not just for INTER-national issues as you say, but for INTRA national disputes such as the one above regarding the spat between Saleh and Karzai.

So the question i would return to you is, are you willing to see Saleh style ascendency at the expense of any the Pashtun unity you prize? See Saleh's interview where he pretty much degrades Wazirs and the FATA folks as useful tools. Are you willing to see Atmar's and Saleh's vision take the predominant laid down root?

It would be very similar to the Najib Khad situation right? Khad was superb in terms of defending its governmental interests and its echelons were so involved that Najib himself tortured people to death by stomping on them. But would your and my forefathers like to have seen what emerged from a successful Khad experience?

NDS is like an autoimmune disease - the T and B Cells are defensive cells and may do a great job... but when autoimmunity occurs - the body attacks itself.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA, what you have to realize is the CIA is a terrific institution for the USA, and the same goes for the ISI for Pakistan. These institutions assert their influence in the region. We might not like the ISI, CIA, Mossad but you have to realize nationals of those nations support these secretive groups. For example, the CIA in sense 'protects US interests' now any die-hard American would gracefully embrace this organization since it's a detergent.

ISI primary goal is to serve Pakistani interests, wouldn't you agree that they've done a tremendous job for their nation? Obviously these organizations are what you call them, they've tortured innocent people, killed people based on assumptions, but what is their end-goal?

Will try to answer any rejoinder later. Gotta run soon, vacation ends today.

[Admin Khan]

Yes, they are "the men standing gaurd on the hill" Admin. I guess as engineers we can see the logic of it... but the emotional side of me sees the horrible things these folks do against humanity and thinks that there must be a better way.

I agree it's terrible, these organizations obviously don't care about humanity, geopolitical strategic interests is what they care, and are strictly concerned about. Exerting influence, which is tantamount to interfering in sovereign nations internal affairs, is what spy organizations are best at doing. However, if other nations have them, Afghanistan also needs one for it's strategic leverage. Would you agree? One of the reasons why most European, or Asian nations can't talk back to the US is because of the CIA, and it's large presence in every nation on earth. They can cause havoc, in any city, in milliseconds and no one would be able to blame the USA since there is no legible 'evidence', a tactic that Israel has been employing(and recently employed in the Sudan bombings).

I think the difference with NDS is that its an organization being utilized not just for INTER-national issues as you say, but for INTRA national disputes such as the one above regarding the spat between Saleh and Karzai.

Sadly, this is the problem. NDS is being used to torture innocent Afghans, of a particular ethnic group, when deemed necessary. I recall that one of the reasons why Saleh was booted was because he was torturing innocent Pashtuns and demanding for ridiculous evidence. After the insane torture(again, for no reason)he would let them go. His targets seem to have strictly been Pashtuns, sadly.

So the question i would return to you is, are you willing to see Saleh style ascendency at the expense of any the Pashtun unity you prize? See Saleh's interview where he pretty much degrades Wazirs and the FATA folks as useful tools. Are you willing to see Atmar's and Saleh's vision take the predominant laid down root?

No. Over my dead body.

It would be very similar to the Najib Khad situation right? Khad was superb in terms of defending its governmental interests and its echelons were so involved that Najib himself tortured people to death by stomping on them. But would your and my forefathers like to have seen what emerged from a successful Khad experience?

NDS is like an autoimmune disease - the T and B Cells are defensive cells and may do a great job... but when autoimmunity occurs - the body attacks itself.

I wholeheartedly agree. Speaking of autoimmune diseases, a friend of mine who is a genius suffers from it.

[Admin Khan]

Will try to answer any rejoinder later. Gotta run soon, vacation ends today.

Take your time champ, I always enjoy wrestling with you. ;]

[torkham]

TorKham mashra why? Why can't they get a visa?

I dont know, but here is my speculation. Canadians got diarrhea when they went south and faced reality of combat, shifted their ancilliary staff to safer place.

As for Atmar, he got the push by Karzai so he must have thought 'enemy of my enemy is a friend' and made a Faustian pact with the devil AS.

You know the saying 'birds of feather flock together', well here is an example, both of these toons with intelligence backgrounds, as clarified by daktar saeb shaglai Abdali.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I agree it's terrible, these organizations obviously don't care about humanity, geopolitical strategic interests is what they care, and are strictly concerned about. Exerting influence, which is tantamount to interfering in sovereign nations internal affairs, is what spy organizations are best at doing. However, if other nations have them, Afghanistan also needs one for it's strategic leverage. Would you agree? One of the reasons why most European, or Asian nations can't talk back to the US is because of the CIA, and it's large presence in every nation on earth. They can cause havoc, in any city, in milliseconds and no one would be able to blame the USA since there is no legible 'evidence', a tactic that Israel has been employing(and recently employed in the Sudan bombings).


Sadly, this is the problem. NDS is being used to torture innocent Afghans, of a particular ethnic group, when deemed necessary. I recall that one of the reasons why Saleh was booted was because he was torturing innocent Pashtuns and demanding for ridiculous evidence. After the insane torture(again, for no reason)he would let them go. His targets seem to have strictly been Pashtuns, sadly.


No. Over my dead body.



I wholeheartedly agree. Speaking of autoimmune diseases, a friend of mine who is a genius suffers from it.

More than that, I think it will create a paradigm shift and a paradox and a chinese finger trap of the mind for Pashtun Nationalists and for the Pashtun Ascendency crowd in Afghanistan. Allow me to pitch my explanation of why.

So the whole time, and PF is replete with the argument, the folks here have been bashing the KP Pakistani loyalists saying:

1) Come home. Afghanistan is where the heart is. You were once one with us and we were strong.
2) The Panjabi-Arab nexus is strong in your land and you are being used and abused without know it.
3) Your culture is under attack and being subverted
4) All of the above are being done through ISI and like minded folks

Now, with a Saleh style NDS (he is gone but his fingerprint remains and both he and Atmar are welcomed into Western circles and were the two that roused up Rohrbacher against Karzai) and military complex is being created. That NY Times article I posted here months ago shows high Pashtun military attrition rates despite the quotas and a lot of power to the northern ethnic groups.

So now what will be pitch be for Pashtun unity?

1) Come home: the answer:? Where is home? Its not recognizable - just as the home on the KP side is becoming urdobanized and under aegis of the central government in Islamabad at the service of the Panjab - the Panjshiri boys are going to be that equivalent over there.
2) The Panjab Arab nexus? Well, thats all good and well but the Perso-istaan-iran nexus doesnt sound so friendly either
3) Culture and religion subverted? Well Atmaar and his Khalqi kang werent really too religious to begin with and were pretty brutal too... so why trade one monster for another? Especially for a monster known to serve raping, pillaging russians in the past?
4) ISI - Well NDS is pretty much the mirrror image so now things are even.

[ډګروال]

i genuinly thought Atmar was a nice guy but da kho mar maar wekhatoo.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

i genuinly thought Atmar was a nice guy but da kho mar maar wekhatoo.

Yeah go back a few pages. You will see more of the discussion about Atmar.

[ډګروال]

Yeah go back a few pages. You will see more of the discussion about Atmar.

yeah i have red that.
great posts wrora ,keep them coming.

[randolph85]

atmar never struck me as a hardcore former commie, i mean the guy was only 24 when najibs gov't fell so i don't necessarily hold that against him as i would a full fledged middle aged afghan commie with a mustache. the problem with him is his links with the likes of saleh/abdullah and his links to american officials. the government is already in bed with the americans, its worse when the anti karzai elements are in league with american hawks under the radar.

[Shah-i-Kot]

to hell with all the traitors who backstabbed the Pashtuns...

may they live with their shame and I could care less if they shake in fear

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Pashtuns backstabbed themselves

Ashraf Khan Hotaki backstabbed Mahmoud Khan Hotaki

Nadir Shah Backstabbed Amanullah

the problem is the Pashtuns themselves