Durand Line is international border, says US diplomat

[RevolutionThroughReason]

why should they choose USA or in your case US?
if we talk abotu Afghans than we are culturally much closer to china and also china isnt responsible for massmurder of pashtuns.

than again we dont need to choose any of them as we are a free people not some slaves looking for owners.

what Admin Khan Lala is trying to say is that China would **** you side ways worse than America if they get the chance. Just look at what China is doing in Africa, puts America to shame. Also China is Pakistan's ally, being with China means serving Pakistan ....you wouldn't want that would you...I mean that is if you weren't a paki slave already/

[Pashtonforever]

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَانِ الرَّحِيمِ

السلامعليكم
If we read the history, we haven’t helped our Pashtun brother, on the other side of this dirty line we sold them to Panjabi, in this case we have to blame our corrupted governments they only cared about themself, they did not want Pashtun people to become unit and claim this land back from Panjabi.

Afghan government won’t care about Afghanistan and afghan people they only care about money nothing else, every day 100s of Pashtun die no one care about them, billions of dollars come to build Afghanistan all these dollars ended in the pocket of our corrupted warlord.

I am calling on all Pashtun to become unit, educate their children, and come out from Dark Age. We have to follow Quran and the way of Mohammad (PBUH) we will be always successful, in this life and Akhirah, and no one can use us.

Pashtun people are very close to Allah any nation touched them, they been destroyed by Allah, I am sure Pakistan is next.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

what Admin Khan Lala is trying to say is that China would **** you side ways worse than America if they get the chance. Just look at what China is doing in Africa, puts America to shame. Also China is Pakistan's ally, being with China means serving Pakistan ....you wouldn't want that would you...I mean that is if you weren't a paki slave already/

Its more internal and close to its borders where China has problems. Compared to the US, its approach in foreign nations, to secure energy resources is actually commendable.

I keep up on China's investment in Africa out of curiousity mainly because I think the next major set of wars will occur there.

The Council on Foreign Relations has this to say its report:

http://www.relooney.info/0_New_14317.pdf


""There are often exaggerated charges that Chinese firms' activities or investment decisions are coordinated by the Chinese government as some

sort of strategic gambit in the high-stakes game of global energy security. In reality, Chinese firms compete for profitable projects not only with more technologically and politically savvy international firms, but also with each other."

It is not so much Beijing that is doing unfair labor practice (something that American companies, including Apple are supremely guilty of in foreign countries as FOXCONN makes products for apple) but rather Chinese companies spinning off into their own orbits with less oversight from Beijing.

Here are the best quotes to show that, unlike the US, China has both an official and enacted policy of not attempting to hoist ideologies on Africa:

"Since former Chinese president Jiang Zemin inaugurated China's reengagement with Africa in 1996, the Chinese have tried to maintain a policy of "noninterference" in the domestic affairs of African countries, explains Donald L. Sparks in an April 2011 paper for the Journal of African Studies

and Development

.

In an August 2011 paper in the African Journal of Political Science and International Relations, Fanie Herman and Tsai Ming-Yen compare China's foreign policy in Africa to that of then United States. "The U.S. focuses on humanitarianism, good governance, and democratization of petroleum-producing states in their oil diplomacy approach," they write. On the other hand, they argue, "China, the world's fastest growing economy, views SSA [sub-Saharan Africa] as a welcome offloading ground for its products in exchange for oil. An economic approach focusing on enlarging itscommercial interests is the driving factor for China's engagement with petroleum producing states."

So in reality, China is doing what the Super Power should be doing, which is letting its national security interests and what is best for its citizens, drive its policy.

This is a stark contrast to the US approach of regime change and extensive support for Israel as well as backing the Saudi monarchy. The Chinese approach to Saudi would be more likely to go like this based on the above:
Sauds make deal with China ---> China works with it ---> Saud dynasty gets deposed ---> China makes deal with next regime.

Versus America:
Look to Israel and local interests (ie. Mubarak and Saleh's well being) and strengthen Saud ---> Saudi dynasty threatened --> Carter doctrine promulgated.

Regarding Sino-Pakistani ties... this is actually a very mis represented relationship. China does not support Pakistan out of ideology, but rather out of enmity to India. India made incursions into china at one point and also threatens China's national security in various ways in reference to parts of kashmir and local energy resources. If that issue were resolved, and or if the US and Pakistan escalated into a higher level conflict, China will not threaten its own stability to sacrifice for Pakistan.

This is the mistake Pakistani's make - they think China is a reliable colleague and mentor state. In reality, China is doing what rising power should be - looking out for its interests.

Even in Afghanistan, China continues to quietly work with Karzai's government and if it saw a viable Lithium market and/or other factors that make Afghanistan important to it - it will not step in to defent Pakistan in the case of a threatened conflict between the two states.

This does not absolve them from internal crimes agianst the Uighars, who actually were fine denizens until the Mandarin Chinese started a campaign against them.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

what Admin Khan Lala is trying to say is that China would **** you side ways worse than America if they get the chance. Just look at what China is doing in Africa, puts America to shame. Also China is Pakistan's ally, being with China means serving Pakistan ....you wouldn't want that would you...I mean that is if you weren't a paki slave already/

Also, when the West and the US decide to once again play into their adversaries hand (proof of this was just today when an interview from Mali's insurgent leader was released and he asked the West to invade and fight him) and get lured into yet another conflict in Africa - I dont think China puts them to shame when it comes to such issues. Also recall what they did to the Union Courts of third world Somalia. Somalia had just reached the cusp of stability with a sufiistic moderate leadership who actually sent feelers out to the US to tell it that it would not provide a base for extremism. Due to the climate of Washington post 2001 - the CIA decided they would intervene and armed Christian Ethiopia to commit travesties in Somalia leading to the rise of shabaab via radicalization of the locals. Untold damage had been done there and Somalians will suffer for yet another generation as war was bought to their doorstep.

[Admin Khan]

I admire your patriotism. And your realization that Islam will have to play a role. But one thing you haven't figured out is that the KP Pashtuns are going to have to do the "sacrifice". International law, recognition, economic interests, geopolitics etc (all favoring Pak) will then mean jack squat if the Pak Pashtuns ever really bothered with Durand Line, Loy Afghanistan, or Pashtunistan. Afghanistanis, being the Muslim brothers they are, are well within their right to play up "issues" for their domestic compulsions. Just don't expect anything out of it.

Do you think a 'border' exists right now? Have you ever visited the geographic region?

I hate to say it, but Pashtuns on both sides strictly display a 'border' for Punjabis, Hazaras, Tajiks, Sindhis,etc so they can tax them both ways. For Pashtuns themselves, because you have the same tribes on both sides, there is no border or line. What the Banana republic of Pakistan, or the Mayor of Afghanistan(Karzai) says is irrelevant. Pakistan holds no weight, nor does the GOA.

Let's take Loy Kandahar region for example(Quetta-Kandahar tract of the border). The major tribes near the so called mickey-mouse border are the Achakzai, Noorzai, Tarin, Nassar, Kakar. However, the Achakzai and Noorzai of that region hold the most weight. These tribes are on both sides of the line, and there is nothing Pakistan can do to change this. What this means is this, if a Pashtun is travelling from Quetta to Kandahar, they use the phrase "Las mu azaad". If it's a Punjabai, or a Sindhai, or Tajak or Uzbek(again, I hate to mention these ethnic groups, but this is ground reality)they will tax you until you faint, and give you a hard time on both sides(Hazaras suffer the most, along with Punjabis who go to Afghanistan for construction work). So the point I am trying to make here is for non-Pashtuns, it will obviously appear as if there is a "border" but for Pashtuns, there is nothing. Major tribes, on both sides of the LoC are raking in on revenue. Again, it's like the uncle is on side, and nephew is on the other side and both are incredibly happy with this pseudo-line since it's permitting them to possess the ability of taxing those who can't pass their 'Pashtun test'. I recall them specifically quizzing, "Oh you are Pashtun, which tribe? within that tribe which tribe?, etc, etc". The reason for the aforementioned is most non-Pashtuns try as hard as they can to avoid these fees, most have spent all their lives in that region, so they speak fluent Pashto. Again, this is certainly racism and not cool, I don't condone it, I'm just telling you facts. Anybody familiar can verify what I said(although it's not necessary, since I'm speaking from experience).

No sacrifice is needed, you act as if Pashtuns are obedient to either the GOP or GOA. If you ever visit the region, you will realize they view both governments as illegitimate. Remember when that stooge Musharraf tried to set up a 'fenced' border? Remember what happened? It was Pashtuns of the other side of the line who staged protests, and eventually forced Islamabad to never bring up that absurd topic again. In case one of your Pak defence buddies think I made that up, read this:
http://www.paktribune.com/news/print.php?id=165056 . It's from a Pakistani news agency, so I hope you don't dismiss it as RAW propaganda pal.

I challenge any Pakistani official(which is why it has never occurred yet) to create a border. Las mu azad, however expect the wrath of Pashtuns on both sides. If you think there is one that exists now, then you are out of touch, most of the line has no establishment. Don't take those Pashtuns who are the children of Pak army or Afghan Army officials as representatives of the local spera Pashtuns. There is a difference between Pashtuns who are anomalies that reside in posh areas of Afghanistan or Pakistan speaking on behalf of Pashtuns, and those that actually reside in the battlefield.

Nice seeing you. Good to see you post.

Best,

[Admin Khan]

On my China remark, I think me elaborating on it would be an insult to humanity, so I'll pass and let those with some common sense figure out what I meant and mean.

[Digital Malang]

If the whole china pees towards Afghanistan their urine will turn into a mass flood and destroy Afghanistan into pieces. thats how dangerous they are for us plus they are well known for their cruelty against humans throughout the history. Id rather let Americans stay in bases so we can be safe from China and ofcource from our other sweet neighbors.

[Admin Khan]

If the whole china pees towards Afghanistan their urine will turn into a mass flood and destroy Afghanistan into pieces. thats how dangerous they are for us plus they are well known for their cruelty against humans throughout the history. Id rather let Americans stay in bases so we can be safe from China and ofcource from our other sweet neighbors.

No man, blame America. Those dirty Americans are always bad. Even their name means bad in Pashto. China is our natural ally, they are not robbing our resources, and they have not persecuted us, and they love, love us Muslims. They are not communist, they do not oppress, censor and prosecute their nationals. They do not discourage Islam, they actually give us Muslims a lot more freedom than America! (Flushing alone has 5 Mosques that were built by Afghans, get the point). They are our saviors, let's support China because it's cool for now, yeah, cool.

One must be brain dead to not realize what China will, has, and is going to do to you once they begin to flex their muscles. Grab a history book, and look up the oppression that the Chinese has bestowed upon many. Mao Zedong did not kill 40-70 million people, he loved them instead. History starts from November 2012, ignore the past. Ignore that the Chinese since their inception has killed more people than the US can ever count or imagine. Yeah, let's just find a scapegoat. Just because China is quiet now(meanwhile they are exerting their soft power)that implies they are better than Amrika, the land of the Kuffar, where all the neshanal's are Kuffar, yeah!

Now we will quote this post, to expose my agenda, yeah - Let's do that now.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

No man, blame America. Those dirty Americans are always bad. Even their name means bad in Pashto. China is our natural ally, they are not robbing our resources, and they have not persecuted us, and they love, love us Muslims. They are not communist, they do not oppress, censor and prosecute their nationals. They do not discourage Islam, they actually give us Muslims a lot more freedom than America! (Flushing alone has 5 Mosques that were built by Afghans, get the point). They are our saviors, let's support China because it's cool for now, yeah, cool.

One must be brain dead to not realize what China will, has, and is going to do to you once they begin to flex their muscles. Grab a history book, and look up the oppression that the Chinese has bestowed upon many. Mao Zedong did not kill 40-70 million people, he loved them instead. History starts from November 2012, ignore the past. Ignore that the Chinese since their inception has killed more people than the US can ever count or imagine. Yeah, let's just find a scapegoat. Just because China is quiet now(meanwhile they are exerting their soft power)that implies they are better than Amrika, the land of the Kuffar, where all the neshanal's are Kuffar, yeah!

Now we will quote this post, to expose my agenda, yeah - Let's do that now.

Well I think thats a little preemptive. Let cooler heads prevail.

1) The issue of America's anti Islamic bent is validated not by Muslim extremists alone, but by the CIA itself. The overwhelming majority of Mike Scheuer's work as head of Alec Station was to show that most of what we are accused of in the Islamic world, we are guilty of.

Lets not brush that under the rug and let guilty parties off the hook simply because its a popular stance amongst extremists and because Mr. Karzai prefers them to stay ala his flawed strategic balancing ideology.

After all, America herself reversed her stance on the Uighar problem after 2001 to actually gain Chinese support for her efforts in the Muslim world.

2) Mao Zedong
Mao Zedong and his evolution of thought was HEAVILY influenced by what he felt were anti imperialism ideologies. He was born just a few years before the Boxers rebellion and the Eight Nation Alliance imperialist action of which the US was an active member.

So even there, whether you like it or not, the US and British imperialist adventures spawned the heat of the revolution that would ready the fields for the communist fertilizer.

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq86-1.htm

^ The US viciously murdered many of the Boxers and revolutionaries leading to seething Chinese resentment subsequently.

So in with all due fairness, while the preception may be pushed that the Chinese are a bee hive of killer bees ready to pour out of the hive like Gog and Magog, as engineers we go with evidence and logic: and the evidence at hand is that even as an empire, China has been relatively contained compared to the Brits and the Americans who have actually invaded and occupied most of the globe.

And per the Boxer rebellion massacres and other oppressions, they created the way for the rise of Mao.

Is that not why the Americans have the greatest number of bases, including in old Europe?

The Mongols of course, were a peculiarity and they did not origin in Beijing and actually swept into central China from their haunts.

3) So now this concept of well the Americans are better is what led to the mistakes of our forefathers.

Abdul Samad Achakzai deviated FAR FAR away from the beloved Afghan hero forefather Abdullah Achakzai and, after learning of the events of the Leninist Revolution thought that the Russians would form a strategic counterweight to the British endeavors.

He was sadly mistaken and the subsequent carnage in which a large group of people took American Arms and another large group of people took Russian arms is evidence of this.

So in summary admin, the evidence just does not support a George Bushian premeptive view of the Chinese, nor does it support ignoring the fact that America, China, Russia the three powers, will all look to their own interests and simply assigning ourself to one powers side is also a major and grave mistake.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

No man, blame America. Those dirty Americans are always bad. Even their name means bad in Pashto. China is our natural ally, they are not robbing our resources, and they have not persecuted us, and they love, love us Muslims. They are not communist, they do not oppress, censor and prosecute their nationals. They do not discourage Islam, they actually give us Muslims a lot more freedom than America! (Flushing alone has 5 Mosques that were built by Afghans, get the point). They are our saviors, let's support China because it's cool for now, yeah, cool.

One must be brain dead to not realize what China will, has, and is going to do to you once they begin to flex their muscles. Grab a history book, and look up the oppression that the Chinese has bestowed upon many. Mao Zedong did not kill 40-70 million people, he loved them instead. History starts from November 2012, ignore the past. Ignore that the Chinese since their inception has killed more people than the US can ever count or imagine. Yeah, let's just find a scapegoat. Just because China is quiet now(meanwhile they are exerting their soft power)that implies they are better than Amrika, the land of the Kuffar, where all the neshanal's are Kuffar, yeah!

Now we will quote this post, to expose my agenda, yeah - Let's do that now.

And just as the buck stops with the senior engineering team leader (even if it was the intern that made the mistake) and just as if the buck stops with the attending physician (even if the med student conveyed the info incorrectly) power reflects engagement. By hoisting the flag in multiple continents, America is that attending and she is that Senior team leader now. And by taking that role, she is not immune to criticism... especially if the facts are the facts.

Yet the opposite naive view of makign China out to be our savior is fool hardy and NOT at all evidence based.

Just as in life, no one can do your work for you, no one can take care of your wife and your kids for you, no one can build your neighborhood for you, and no one can build your nation for you... if they do something its for a price. And world powers aim to collect.

This is why the refrain: the poor Afghans are tired of war... they just want development now; they just want class room and tea time and Afghan Idol... they just want hospitals and Cleveland Clinic Afghanistan.. and lets just rest... lets just take it and accept Cleveland Clinic Afghanistan.

Whats the trade off? Its the most precious commodity of all, without which the yolk of slavery remains permanent. Pakistan is evidence of this. Britain built her institutions, and she, to do this remains a slave nation.

And Azmal, if you are reading this, you are still a sorry cesspool of human feces.

[Admin Khan]

BA, I never said, nor am I implying that should AFG side with America. The point I was trying to make is without a strong Afghanistan, China is just as worse(if not the worst) as anyone else since eventually they are all out for their own strategic interests. No one offers free assistance. Throughout life, I've always heard of these praises of China, and my point is that it is no different than any other superpower(think USSR).

Comparing who is more cruel is simply childish. What matters is Afghan interests, and that can only be served if its Afghan driven. China, UK, USSR, etc, are all the same for Afghans. Either you love the US, and be a lapdog, or you criticize them all and strictly look out for Afghan interests. Obviously the aforementioned doesn't mean Afghanistan shouldn't have diplomatic relations.

Let me know if you need me to elaborate.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA, I never said, nor am I implying that should AFG side with America. The point I was trying to make is without a strong Afghanistan, China is just as worse(if not the worst) as anyone else since eventually they are all out for their own strategic interests. No one offers free assistance. Throughout life, I've always heard of these praises of China, and my point is that it is no different than any other superpower(think USSR).

Comparing who is more cruel is simply childish. What matters is Afghan interests, and that can only be served if its Afghan driven. China, UK, USSR, etc, are all the same for Afghans. Either you love the US, and be a lapdog, or you criticize them all and strictly look out for Afghan interests. Obviously the aforementioned doesn't mean Afghanistan shouldn't have diplomatic relations.

Let me know if you need me to elaborate.

Yeah I agree. For the past 60 years the Muslim world has been looking for foreign saviors... this continues to this day with love for Putin, love for President Hu, and Bandar Bush chumming it up.

The region is rich with resources far and wide. If these knuckle heads just understood that and were willing to accept the fact that development will be slow but it will come with time - they should work toward building a system that allows them self sufficiency long term.

Even the most independent of the local nations, Iran, due its oil market being Europe, is now learning the lesson the hard way.

It seems to me that people are unwilling to accept the notion that things take time, blood, sweat, tears and effort and just want a quick fix.

Its all a mess Admin Khan ... its pre-designed to fail. Look at the US, if you go to Ohio you have coal; texas has oil; NYC has the markets and the coasts have their harbors. Ohio can never stand as a state alone nor can Texas despite their clamorings of Texas pride.

In this same way, the British drawn lines (with idiotic centuries old ethnic disputes) gaurantees constant in fighting and a complete inability to pool resources and lack of mobility for population burden and education. They cannot think as a unified block whether for secular gain or ideoreligious gain.

Slaves will be slaves.

[Admin Khan]

Do you think that will ever change BA? Can we ever expect an independent forward thinking Afghanistan? I mean, our CS department alone receives millions from DoD to ensure US supremacy. How can Afghanistan ever stand up against regional bullies? Gone are the days of Shah Mahmoud Hotak.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Do you think that will ever change BA? Can we ever expect an independent forward thinking Afghanistan? I mean, our CS department alone receives millions from DoD to ensure US supremacy. How can Afghanistan ever stand up against regional bullies? Gone are the days of Shah Mahmoud Hotak.

I am talking about the whole region my man. Think big. Why should a student in Tajikistan or Pakistan or Afghanistan not be able to go seek education in another locality externally? If say the student felt he would get a better education in Aga Khan in Karachi versus Tashkent that should be promoted and doable.

Encouragement of mobility bewteen and within states should be encouraged.

Afghanistan's Lithium, KPs natural gas, irans oil, Tajikistans waters and fertile fields all of these commodities are of great value.

The people have to find a way to reconcile their ideological and even religious variations so that they can stop being imperialized. They dont have the Ottomons around anymore to look out for some sort of unified interest.

The central asian states alone have a large degree of hidden wealth. But everyone wants to somehow recreate the US economic experience in a plot of land the size of Nebraska and they think that confounders in these places like population burden, historical rivalries, and the like are just going to accomodate this.

The secularists call it Pan Islamism, but for the life of me, I cannot understand why the secular minded themselves dont want to form a united block to ensure they do not become anchor babies to Europe and the Americas so that they can rise together and never be threatened by economic sanctions etc.

Anything is better than this continuous cycle of slavery and subservience under leadership that thinks that by playing strategic depth and strategic balancing games that they can somehow emerge.

How many times do Afghan leaders from Abdul Rahman onwards have to play this risque game of counter balancing powers in the hopes that the force vectors can neutralize one another? Its failed every time and yet now Karzai-ists think it will work this time around?

[Admin Khan]

I am talking about the whole region my man. Think big. Why should a student in Tajikistan or Pakistan or Afghanistan not be able to go seek education in another locality externally? If say the student felt he would get a better education in Aga Khan in Karachi versus Tashkent that should be promoted and doable.

Encouragement of mobility bewteen and within states should be encouraged.

Afghanistan's Lithium, KPs natural gas, irans oil, Tajikistans waters and fertile fields all of these commodities are of great value.

The people have to find a way to reconcile their ideological and even religious variations so that they can stop being imperialized. They dont have the Ottomons around anymore to look out for some sort of unified interest.

The central asian states alone have a large degree of hidden wealth. But everyone wants to somehow recreate the US economic experience in a plot of land the size of Nebraska and they think that confounders in these places like population burden, historical rivalries, and the like are just going to accomodate this.

The secularists call it Pan Islamism, but for the life of me, I cannot understand why the secular minded themselves dont want to form a united block to ensure they do not become anchor babies to Europe and the Americas so that they can rise together and never be threatened by economic sanctions etc.

Anything is better than this continuous cycle of slavery and subservience under leadership that thinks that by playing strategic depth and strategic balancing games that they can somehow emerge.

How many times do Afghan leaders from Abdul Rahman onwards have to play this risque game of counter balancing powers in the hopes that the force vectors can neutralize one another? Its failed every time and yet now Karzai-ists think it will work this time around?

BA graana, my question was how feasible is that? I'm starting to believe that those nations will never be able to stand up against regional bullies, since they are so behind in every field possible. Obviously we can write a thesis on how we IDEALLY wish the region to be, but my concern is what kind of calculus does the Afghan government have to employ to change their current global positioning? Obviously we both know that if Afghanistan is left alone, it can be self-suficient. I think you are a prime example, it's obvious that Afghans are not mentally deficient. If given the resources, Afghans can thrive. A local Afghan here recently kicked a Princeton University team's butt in a programming competition, so it's clear that if Afghanistan is left alone, many BA's can be produced. However, we know that all these regional nations have vested interests. Knowing that, can we ever expect a independent forward-thinking Afghanistan? Will we be ever alive to witness it?