What do Pakistani Pashtuns mean when they say Lar aw bar yaw Pakhtun

[pashtun_rise]

Well sir...i was not here for them or ours side...i was here for something else...i told you before...i am led here by someone i cant say much...but i was sent her for a brief period.I have a lot to do in my practical life.My life is quite tough even though i am not man...yet i am happy to fulfill the duty i am given.

This debate will go on forever...in the end i can conclude one thing...this will raise hatred b/w lar or bar pashtuns more and more.Let alone talk of half punjabi half pashtuns or other indics .For us ...as i have many friends that are mix of both ethnicity too...are pashtuns.For them..they are punjabi slaves.And i would advise one thing...leave them....let them burn in their hatred...for lar pashtuns are already slipped out of their hands..people like us are so less...they can count on fingers.N that too would eventually leave.

[haviZsultan]

Well sir...i was not here for them or ours side...i was here for something else...i told you before...i am led here by someone i cant say much...but i was sent her for a brief period.I have a lot to do in my practical life.My life is quite tough even though i am not man...yet i am happy to fulfill the duty i am given.

Oh the suspense... tell me already before the Afghans start calling you ISI agent, dear.

In fact scratch that. Tell me about that in your e-mail which I am waiting for... and also where u're living. Then maybe I can figure who led you here and whether I know him. No?

This debate will go on forever...in the end i can conclude one thing...this will raise hatred b/w lar or bar pashtuns more and more.Let alone talk of half punjabi half pashtuns or other indics .For us ...as i have many friends that are mix of both ethnicity too...are pashtuns.For them..they are punjabi slaves.And i would advise one thing...leave them....let them burn in their hatred...for lar pashtuns are already slipped out of their hands..people like us are so less...they can count on fingers.N that too would eventually will leave.

I agree. Afghans should consider us the thin delicate thread that is holding lar and bar Pashtuns together... if they alienate us with their rubbish they stand to lose everything.

And I've always been impressed by women involved in politics. Especially those who know what they stand for.

So are you going to responds to BarakzaiAbdalis request or not?

Are you his spokesperson? You Afghans or their slaves (don't mind you guys have called us that for a long time-it shouldn't hurt when we call you the same) send thousands of posts all aimed at me. You think it is physically possible for me to actually respond to each one of them?

I have responded to what 100 posts by various people? For your answer yes. I am ready to take on your challenge. Except I don't know what barakzaiabdali's request is. If he had a request he would have PM'd me.

[pashtun_rise]

No..i was here for the links...that i ve posted...it doesnt affect me if someone would call me an ISI agent or an israeli agent...

[Haris]

HaviZsultan, if the Afghans here are spreading "rubbish" then you are no better. You claim to be refuting their rubbish and "drilling sense into their heads" yet you have not done so with me.



I would appreciate it if you could apologise for practically calling my ancestors cowards. If not, then at least prove that they were so.


In my long post I addressed many of your silly & insulting claims. Namely that,

• Bar Pashtuns (as a whole) were oppressing Lar Pashtuns.

• Bar Pashtuns sold the land of Lar Pashtuns 'just to save their own skin'.

• There was little or no opposition to Abdur Rahman Khan.

• Abdur Rahman Khan could have done more to stop the ceding of the Lar Pashtuns' land (you will note that it wasn't even him who signed/agreed anything but his Ahmadi representative).

• Abdur Rahman Khan was, at the time, the leader of the Afghans and acted on behalf of the Afghans.

• Afghans had the capability to repel the British and 'save' the Lar Pashtuns but chose not to.

• Afghans had the power to stop Abdur Rahman Khan's decision and stop the land going to the British.

• Afghans only recently started to wish to rejoin with their brothers to form one united nation.

• On the ground, ordinary Bar Pashtuns call Lar Pashtuns 'Urdu slave' etc.

These are all points that Pakistani nationalists very emotionally tend to use in their discussions but are factually incorrect. Also, something I noticed in this thread is that Pakistani nationalists tend to play the 'Karlanri' card often which I find funny - as if it were only Karlanris who were fighting the British and as if Karlanris are all Lar Pashtuns.



Please either provide proof for the above claims, clarify them or address my rebuttals. Thanks.




No-one here is bullying you. You are spreading nonsense and that nonsense is being addressed. That's what happens on an open discussion community.

If you feel that you do not have the time to respond because of your busy schedule then I understand.







@pashtun_rise If you feel the need to leave for whatever reason then I respect that decision. I want to let you know that I enjoyed discussing with you and hope that you choose to stay or at least return.

[haviZsultan]

I think thats reasonable. It seems like this thread was just one big emotional catharsis without much contributing set of facts. I have now asked for the data 3 times about proof with respect to the Durrani monarchy taxing the KP tribes specifically at greater costs than the Ghilzai, Kharoti, Khostwalaan, etc. I would understand if these was a specific citable policy from Tarikh e Ahmad Shahi or some great text which said: and the Orakzai and Wazir and Dawar and Mehsud and Khattak etc were taxed to a greater extent... but I have not seen that. To the contrary, it appears that if anything was unfair it was unfair across the spectrum, i.e. as Haris has said, if the Kabul government of the time was bad to one tribe, they were generally being bad to others as well, indicating this was not a specific policy to piss off specific tribes.

I recently made this post.

I'll tell you a story a friend just told me during an interview for an article I am about to write (which will debunk the Pashtunistan/Greater Afghanistan theory)

His family grandfather a Khan from the Orakzai tribe went to receive help from the Afghans to fight against the British in around 1920's. You know what they did? They did not give him shelter, they did not give him food when he reached Kabul. They treated him like the rubbish they see lar Pashtuns as.

For them you are a dal-khor, british slave and Pangchuk no matter what you do.

These same person has told me about these unfair taxes on Pakhtunkhwa and claimed Pakhtunkhwa had to pay 4 times the tax bar Pashtuns paid. However I have no other source or some text or article but a person who's great-grandfathers suffered under the weight of such taxes is a good enough source in my eyes. Maybe you are right. The taxes were for some regions of Pakhtunkhwa but still proves my point.

Its obviously better than inventing conspiracy theories about Musharraf Bangash's kidnapping which have no proof... especially since we already know South Waziristan and North Wazirstan are hotspots for kidnapping people from Bannu, Tank and Dera Ismail Khan.

Here ya go

Thank you for pointing this out to me. If I wouldn't have answered this I would have automatically become a coward or Pakistani slave who raced away the moment he saw trouble. lol. Even though I don't have a specific source per say.

[haviZsultan]

HaviZsultan, if the Afghans here are spreading "rubbish" then you are no better. You claim to be refuting their rubbish and "drilling sense into their heads" yet you have not done so with me.



I would appreciate it if you could apologise for practically calling my ancestors cowards. If not, then at least prove that they were so.


In my long post I addressed many of your silly & insulting claims. Namely that,

• Bar Pashtuns (as a whole) were oppressing Lar Pashtuns.

• Bar Pashtuns sold the land of Lar Pashtuns 'just to save their own skin'.

• There was little or no opposition to Abdur Rahman Khan.

• Abdur Rahman Khan could have done more to stop the ceding of the Lar Pashtuns' land (you will note that it wasn't even him who signed/agreed anything but his Ahmadi representative).

• Abdur Rahman Khan was, at the time, the leader of the Afghans and acted on behalf of the Afghans.

• Afghans had the capability to repel the British and 'save' the Lar Pashtuns but chose not to.

• Afghans had the power to stop Abdur Rahman Khan's decision and stop the land going to the British.

• Afghans only recently started to wish to rejoin with their brothers to form one united nation.

• On the ground, ordinary Bar Pashtuns call Lar Pashtuns 'Urdu slave' etc.

These are all points that Pakistani nationalists very emotionally tend to use in their discussions but are factually incorrect. Also, something I noticed in this thread is that Pakistani nationalists tend to play the 'Karlanri' card often which I find funny - as if it were only Karlanris who were fighting the British and as if Karlanris are all Lar Pashtuns.



Please either provide proof for the above claims, clarify them or address my rebuttals. Thanks.




No-one here is bullying you. You are spreading nonsense and that nonsense is being addressed. That's what happens on an open discussion community.

If you feel that you do not have the time to respond because of your busy schedule then I understand.







@pashtun_rise If you feel the need to leave for whatever reason then I respect that decision. I want to let you know that I enjoyed discussing with you and hope that you choose to stay or at least return.

I will try to answer this post later sometime.

My point was if the bar Pashtuns don't like being labelled such then why do they label the lar Pashtuns such. They are turning this into an Afghan Pashtun vs Pakistani Pashtun thing with their attitudes not us.

Also check the first part of this post for some answers. http://www.pashtunforums.com/showpos...&postcount=244

[Admin Khan]

I recently made this post.

These same person has told me about these unfair taxes on Pakhtunkhwa and claimed Pakhtunkhwa had to pay 4 times the tax bar Pashtuns paid. However I have no other source or some text or article but a person who's great-grandfathers suffered under the weight of such taxes is a good enough source in my eyes. Maybe you are right. The taxes were for some regions of Pakhtunkhwa but still proves my point.

Its obviously better than inventing conspiracy theories about Musharraf Bangash's kidnapping which have no proof... especially since we already know South Waziristan and North Wazirstan are hotspots for kidnapping people from Bannu, Tank and Dera Ismail Khan.



Thank you for pointing this out to me. If I wouldn't have answered this I would have automatically become a coward or Pakistani slave who raced away the moment he saw trouble. lol. Even though I don't have a specific source per say.

Still waiting for the evidence of your claims. Your friend telling you something is not evidence. Bring evidence, not emotions. If you don't have a source, or any kind of evidence, all your rants based on it will be free-throwed to the dust bin.

These same person has told me about these unfair taxes on Pakhtunkhwa and claimed Pakhtunkhwa had to pay 4 times the tax bar Pashtuns paid. However I have no other source or some text or article but a person who's great-grandfathers suffered under the weight of such taxes is a good enough source in my eyes. Maybe you are right. The taxes were for some regions of Pakhtunkhwa but still proves my point.

You have no source for what you've said so far; yet it proves your point? Talk about a discussion.

BarakzaiAbdali, I hate to call you out, but this is exactly what I meant. Writing up responses to someone, who will pull nonsense out of thin-air, and then go as far as fabricating facts until caught, is just a waste of time. Until you provide evidence for the outrageous claims you've made, you won't be taken seriously. Keep up the comedy.

Here we have someone, writing emotional outbursts about something he, himself, has no evidence or source of. Look at your last response to me, it has no substance just emotions of how sad you are,etc,etc. We can go at this all day, but I don't have time to invest in having the last word. When you decide to bring some evidence to backup your outrageous claims, you will be taken slightly serious, till then keep it up.

I said Pashtuns are ethnic Afghans, and provided you with a bunch of evidence. From the naming of NWFP, to historical references, to even modern day Pakistan considering Pashtuns of Pakistan as ethnically Afghan. You on the other hand, once again go off in a tangent adding no substance what so ever, and when pressed for evidence you claim your uncles brother's bestfriends young brother who had 2 uncles's grandfather has the evidence.

[Admin Khan]

what you guys fail to realise is that these guy's are here from another forum where i debated with them so now they have come here as a group to cause hatred among Pashtuns.

these guys actually think khushal khan khattak was a paki.
havizsultan is not a Pashutn but a paki nationalist who is witnessing that Pashtuns are waking up so he tries to put them back to sleep.

no wonder there wasnt activity on that forum anymore.

ps : one thing is good that this can show Pashtuns what kind of hate driven people are working against their unity.

I understand his agenda is to cause division, but I was trying to hear him out to see if he has any evidence for his claims. So far, he hasn't provided any proof for the claims he is hanging on. From being taxed more, to being used as "slaves". These are serious allegations, and he needs provide evidence for them. He, however, deep inside knows this is nonsense, and so he creates them for his own psychological pleasure. If he doesn't back up what he said, after 27 pages, he will be deemed intellectual dishonest. Now watch him create another essay as to how there is a conspiracy in the internet or in the library where RAW has hidden all the sources and now he can't find them, and how we should all believe what he says is the truth. What's sad is that since he can't even read or speak Pashto, his job of finding a source and actually understanding it increases exponentially. He would first have to 2 hire people, 1 to find this non-existing source, the 2nd to read it and translate it to Urdu/Punjabi for him. This is our sad state, we have a random unknown person creating fabrications without evidence and writing essays to back it up, back up something with no evidence. If this is the state of our authors, what can we expect from regular people?

I'll make you a deal Havi, how about I first teach you Pashto and then we talk about you finding the source? I am being genuine here. I feel like learning about your culture, history and people is the prerequisite before entering a political discussion about Pashtuns. I say this with respect, don't get offended.

[Daruish]

This post is to answer this comment by shadowgovernor on the thread Feelings of the proud Pakistani Pashtun by Arooj Khan where she wrote a beautiful poem on Pakistani Pashtuns. I did type a response before but I assume it was in the wrong section so it was deleted:



This opinion is very common among the Afghans. However the thing is for Pakistani Pashtuns and Afghan Pashtuns lar aw bar yaw Pashtun holds a totally different meaning.

For the Afghans this means that the lands of the lar Pashtuns belong to Afghanistan and are its property (even though their king Rehman Khan threw them to the British) and Pakistan should be broken up to bits to take those lands. However for the Pakistani Pashtun it means unity in terms of promotion of culture and language and love for each other due to shared history.

Even I say lar aw bar yaw Pashtun. It means I want unity in terms of promoting Pashtun culture and language because we share the same history and doing so together can strengthen Pashtuns. Do I mean I want Pakistan to be destroyed or I want Afghans to grab our lands?

Shadow mentioned Musharaf Bangash and his supposed "disloyalty" to Pakistan by claiming lar aw bar. Lets analyze a video of him.

MUSHARRAF BANGASH'S PASHTO NEW SONG (OFFICIAL VIDEO with ENGLISH Subtitles) - YouTube

Now if you notice he constantly displays patriotic behavior in the video.

At 1:38 in this video the Pakistani flag stands high as proclamation of the Pashtuns everlasting loyalty to Pakistan. If he doesn't believe in Pakistan by saying lar aw bar why have the Pakistani flag in one of his videos?

Then at 2:42 he says Jagli shamli di pa watan sarwar kowi (meaning Pashtuns have honour and die for their motherland)... now Afghans would mistake this as united Pashtunistan... however in reality he shows Pakistani Pashtun lashkars. We all know how the lashkars fought the Indians in 48, 65 and even 99 wars. Even now they stand against the Taliban. So what is he pointing at here- Pashtuns sacrifice for Pakistan (which only an idiot can deny) or something else.

Finally at 5:50 the Pakistani flag appears again on the top of a Pakistani truck drivers truck. Then prays for Pashtun unity. So the question is shouldn't Pashtun unity mean we respect each others countries and aspirations too?

For further proof do check the song Pyare Pakistan by Zeek Afridi a National song by a Pakistani Pashtun.

Also do check a song called Da Pakhtunistan de da Pakhtunistan by Musharraf Bangash. It may seem to the Afghan he is talking about Afghans grabbing Pakistani Pashtuns lands but for once do check out what he says 5:06. Our cries of lar aw bar yaw Pashtun or our idea of Pashtunistan only extends till Pashtun unity, it does not stem from hatred for Pakistan or the wish for it to disappear.

I am working on an article which will prove what most Pashtuns think of this. One person already told he views Pashtunistan as a concept that Pashtuns on either side are one and united. It just sounds cool and people say it but it never means they want division of the country.

It doesn't mean physically dividing from Pakistan.

Why you keep saying "afghan grabbing Pakistanis pashtuns lands" are you saying Afghan Pashtons wants to throw Pakistani Pashtons to punjab or Indian ocean and grab the land for themselves? I agree loy Afghanistan is a nonsense idea but the way you try to con proves that your full of $hit.

[Daruish]

These Afghans will never accept you.

We are **** for them... southern **** who they consider dal-khors, sons of the british, defenders of Punjab or Pangchuks (whatever that is). I have been hearing these comments non-stop from these people.

Anyone who reads history can know how unfair it is for Afghans to come back after under Abdur Rehman Khan they sold the lar Pashtuns to the British. And why did they do it... only to save themselves from being conquered by the British. Ask them how they got Kandahar back? The British handed it over to them for selling lar Pashtuns to the British. They divided Pashtuns not us.

Lar Pashtuns struggled like dogs against the British. Karlanri federation and the operations against Tribal areas especially Wazirs and Mahsuds were proof of how hard we fought to get rid of the yoke of British rule.

They are real slaves of the British then call us the same just because they betrayed us to the British. Now after we got freedom only because of Jinnah and chose to join Pakistan because they betrayed us they are saying lar aw bar yaw Afghan and trying to blackmail us due to our cultural and historical ties into a foolish union with 900 gdp per capita (PPP) Afghanistan and go into the stone age.

Pashtun_rise you are a very good person and these people are total racists. You should help me and Arooj in explaining to these over-proud, racists who they actually are. Why can't we be Pakistanis. lol. In 60 years people live and die. Enough time for loyalty to develop for your land and people.

Hold a second, didn't you see your pashto is weak--meaning you are not a Pashton.---Pashton is not a race but cultural language group…just b/c you have a khan sir name does not make you a Pashton…so the f you bother to claim yourself as Paki Pashtons representative? Let the Pashton be....they have suffer enough due to you Pakistanis identity crisis.

[Daruish]

Lets say my Pashtunness is in doubt- for an Afghan mind. Perhaps my link to Pashtuns is very weak or none at all- one based on rumors of family links to Afghanistan years ago.

That still doesn't change the fact that I have adopted Pashtun culture, studied it, love Pashtuns and am dedicated to them enough to write a book on them. I have also made efforts to learn the Pashto language which I am still undergoing.

Of course for the Afghans to accept I am a Pashtun it would be hard because our views totally differ. Instead others have welcomed me (those from Pakhtunkhwa) where Afghans have failed and agree with my statement that you are what you choose to be. I choose to be Pakhtun.

The reason I DON'T speak about my past is exactly because of this. Because it will obviously be used to label me non-pashtun just as the lar Pashtuns have always been labelled Punjabi slaves by you. When my book is out I will reveal by background and what attracted me to believe in myself as a Pashtun and how you Afghans have let me down.

Identity crisis at its best!!!

[Daruish]

No one is selling any land to anybody; We' just want India's help in making us a better country

Better to seek India than Pakistan

of course you'd rather have the *****s prostitutes and Mujra Dancers of Pakistan

you already sold Pashtun land to Indians, Pakistan is derived from India; so why are you whining?

I am Pashtun from one of the most important Pashtun tribes of Afghanistan.,

Are you sure you're Pashtun ...since you want to destroy pashtuns and watch them die in the stone age?

Here in west...these Indian and Paki have join student union, cultural union and even Radio station---go to any Pakistani wedding and its all Indian music and food....they are same people same culture.

[Khostai]

Here in west...these Indian and Paki have join student union, cultural union and even Radio station---go to any Pakistani wedding and its all Indian music and food....they are same people same culture.

its becuase most of the students parents came to the west when Pakistan and India were one country. I know alot of Indian peopel when I ask them where they come from they say, "Originaly from India, but its now called Pakistan". Thats way the Punjabis and Indians in west can get along well, only the new generation are hostile to each other.....

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Havi, that is a false equivalency. Bangladesh division from Pakistan was entirely different. They were one of the most ardent supporters and as a result of multiple reasons that start from Jinnah poonja's time to the 70s election led to their division. Amir Abdur Rahman was stuck in a huge political game between the Russians and the Soviets. His predecessors before him had already made huge mistakes and the final mess was the Durand treaty...this was a treaty for spheres of influence. Go read his memoirs.
Bangladesh started questioning Pakistan, when Jinnah disregarded the Lahore resolution, when he imposed Urdu as the national language (this caused rioting in Bangladesh), later on Ayub Khan came up with a foolish policy where the defense of Pakistan was best held in the West and he, therefore, disregarded the Eastern portion, and so on. The reason were many.
You can't compare a secessionist movement and a colonial division as one and the same thing. It just proves what everyone here has been saying about you.
Furthermore, using anecdotal evidence won't do you any good. We don't even know who this famous Orakzai leader is. And even if we assume for one moment that this is all true, it is besides the point. Pashtuns are a nation, we benefit from being unified. There are more pros than there are cons to our unity. So why shouldn't we be united? Why should we be divided even after the cold war? Where is the logic and sense? Justify it?

[pashtun_rise]

Havi, that is a false equivalency. Bangladesh division from Pakistan was entirely different. They were one of the most ardent supporters and as a result of multiple reasons that start from Jinnah poonja's time to the 70s election led to their division. Amir Abdur Rahman was stuck in a huge political game between the Russians and the Soviets. His predecessors before him had already made huge mistakes and the final mess was the Durand treaty...this was a treaty for spheres of influence. Go read his memoirs.
Bangladesh started questioning Pakistan, when Jinnah disregarded the Lahore resolution, when he imposed Urdu as the national language (this caused rioting in Bangladesh), later on Ayub Khan came up with a foolish policy where the defense of Pakistan was best held in the West and he, therefore, disregarded the Eastern portion, and so on. The reason were many.
You can't compare a secessionist movement and a colonial division as one and the same thing. It just proves what everyone here has been saying about you.
Furthermore, using anecdotal evidence won't do you any good. We don't even know who this famous Orakzai leader is. And even if we assume for one moment that this is all true, it is besides the point. Pashtuns are a nation, we benefit from being unified. There are more pros than there are cons to our unity. So why shouldn't we be united? Why should we be divided even after the cold war? Where is the logic and sense? Justify it?

First of all...try not to disgrace our orakzai tribe...and our lar ancestors...as is called in a post here that our lar ancestors were cruel.Lets not cross the line of decency...and lets not loose the respect that i am giving to you people....go through my previous posts...find a link and read it fully...you ll know some good facts about ur so called loy pashtunistan theory's past...and the leaders or tribes.

2nd...attacking someone through lot of posts cant change the facts that mostly lar pashtuns want to be with pak...if not try yourself.Few members here cant generalise the lar pashtuns.Try to accept the present facts.

3rd...history is gone with the wind...think about future....you people live in past /history...while lar pashtuns live in present...and think about future.

Last but not the least...so many attempts have been made...but failed.Try to know the reasons.The way you afghans disrespect pak pashtuns on one side while expect them to be with you on other side...is clear.Lar pashtuns are diverging in other ethnics...intermarriages have taken place.Lar pashtuns are not what you think are now.New generation have emerged....from all 4 provinces...You can see that once come to pak.

Better forget this great pashtunistan's idea.Make your lives worthy as a good muslim...work for refugees that are in pak...u can save their ethnicity if u wish.Work for a good and prosperous afghan state....better be with indians.No doubt indians are best in commerce.We lar pashtuns are here on pak's side to pray for you...as always.