22 dead in Kabul hotel attack

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Exactly, and this is where my problem arises. Why attack a hotel, when there is an assembly line of this right behind a mosque. Most notably, evidence exists for the assembly line, but little to no credible evidence is available for spozhmai hotel.

Also Admin it appears that the NY Times wrote the following:

"Going from one table to another, they shot any male they could find at point-blank range, but appeared to spare women and children, witnesses and officials said"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/23/wo...-at-hotel.html

and the other articles you and I already read indicate they ran about the hotel shouting: "where are the pimps?"

So once again, the evidence seems to point to a group of men who were convinced by information fed to them that something was going on here.

I think your question is: Whoever fed them this info, or whoever set this up... how do they morally justify this particular place versus the location you mention?

I would say for the reasons in my last post... it combined effectiveness of target with the moral vices and allowed for even the ISAF based media to refer to the groups ability to still target despite thousands of midlevel commanders killed. In fact, the killing of the more seasoned mid level commanders, men who had seen war multiple times, may have left many young and more ferocious commanders in place who are prone to do this.

With respect to the moral aspect of your question, I would say that the issue the folks have to contend with is the following hadith from the beloved Prophet:

Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that." Volume 4, Book 54, Number 538, Narrated Abu Huraira.

The group may retort that they were targeting the pimps though.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I dont know why Admin is trying to hard to convince people.

I dont think he is. He's asking a valid question that with a fascinating set of answers. As you stated before, if this is a PR disaster... and if the articles and the witnesses describe folks who were doing acts in line with a strict belief (i.e these men were truly convinced they would find pimps in the hotel) who fed them this information?

[Admin Khan]

Also Admin it appears that the NY Times wrote the following:

"Going from one table to another, they shot any male they could find at point-blank range, but appeared to spare women and children, witnesses and officials said"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/23/wo...-at-hotel.html

and the other articles you and I already read indicate they ran about the hotel shouting: "where are the pimps?"

So once again, the evidence seems to point to a group of men who were convinced by information fed to them that something was going on here.

I think your question is: Whoever fed them this info, or whoever set this up... how do they morally justify this particular place versus the location you mention?

I would say for the reasons in my last post... it combined effectiveness of target with the moral vices and allowed for even the ISAF based media to refer to the groups ability to still target despite thousands of midlevel commanders killed. In fact, the killing of the more seasoned mid level commanders, men who had seen war multiple times, may have left many young and more ferocious commanders in place who are prone to do this.

With respect to the moral aspect of your question, I would say that the issue the folks have to contend with is the following hadith from the beloved Prophet:

Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that." Volume 4, Book 54, Number 538, Narrated Abu Huraira.

The group may retort that they were targeting the pimps though.

Barakzai Sahab, you want to know what's bothering me?

Rather than storming a hotel and yelling where are the pimps, I can give them the destination where thousands of pimps meet up day and night. Why not attack the hub? They are "assuming" based on questionable evidence that immoral acts occurred there, now whether that's true or not, based on the binomial distribution, or hypergeometric which ever rule the Taliban applied, why take the risk? They said they were told to kill all the men, now how pathetic is that? Suppose you and I decided to stay there, because we had no relatives in Kabul, what is our fault in this? Because a rag-tag led insurgent group was searching for pimps you and I should suffer? Along with other innocent people? If the aim, or goal was prostitutes(which clearly was the case here) why not attack it's hub? Like I said, unparalleled hypocrisy at it's best. If prostitution was strictly limited to this hotel, one could've seen this from the Taliban narrative, but so far I feel disappointed -- to say the least. If this was spearheaded by the Taliban resistance, a big shame on them.

Caveat:
I'm not justifying immoral acts, or prostitution in Kabul. Nor am I disproving that prostitution occurs. My post reflects more than that. Think about it a little bit. This could've been you and I just relaxing in that hotel, or any of your close relatives -- completely innocent that suffered from misinformation.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You really researched this up..

Good work

its not about research to prove a point Lynx.. its that in the past year events have been happening in Afghanistan and everyone is just accepting them at face value.

For instance, the divergent investigation into the Bale incident and the Karzai government discussing multiple attackers and then witnesses saying 1 or multiples.

I am trying to point out that lamenting an event doesnt do justice to the people involved. The injustice here is that no one bothers anymore to ask the tough questions and bare aside their prejudices against soldiers and insurgents to examine the forces behind these events.

Its like everyone is discussing the effect of a disease instead of trying to find out the etiology and then to target the cure.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

I dont think he is. He's asking a valid question that with a fascinating set of answers. As you stated before, if this is a PR disaster... and if the articles and the witnesses describe folks who were doing acts in line with a strict belief (i.e these men were truly convinced they would find pimps in the hotel) who fed them this information?

Anyone who lives in Kabul knows what goes on in those hotels and restaurants in Taimani Shar-e-naw and Qargha. These things do not remain as secrets. People find out sooner or later. After all, the men and women who work there are from Kabul. One of the biggest pimps in Kabul is a guy who use to be a member of parliament. People know how he would force orphan girls into prostitution for Bagram airbase.

Its not like you have to rely on some sort of secret agency to obtain this information. its common knowledge in Kabul.

[haviZsultan]

First of all I want to give my condolences to my Afghan brothers. This is a pathetic attack targeting civilians for no reason at all.

At times like these I truly forget whatever abuse and bullying comes from the filthy mouths of some "ghairatmand" Afghans on this forum and I feel their pain as if its my own.

Afghans have gone through constant war, strife and destruction which have made them suspicious of the world and made them the way they are.

Again this is a pathetic attack on the Afghan people. I think Karzai should make a deal with the Taliban and request them only to attack the foreign forces and leave Afghan civilians at peace.

I doubt that they will agree and it may totally piss the Americans off but at least its better than Afghans being killed everyday. Not to say I sympathize with the militants.

As a Pakistani I can't help but blame the Americans. They used our two countries as puppets just to see a Soviet defeat and then stabbed us in the back the moment they were done using us. The Pakistani Pashtun refuses to believe that it is the Afghan that hates our country so much. We honestly would like to believe that the Americans are drilling stupid ideas in the Afghans head.

If anyone should be dying in the fight to clean up a mess they created it should be the Americans. They supported crazy jihadi's in the 1980's, supported a dictator and forced our country into a war in a land where we had no business interfering.

1)There is nothing wrong with being American born and raised.
2)If you don't stop derailing the thread, expect more bans to follow.

Consider this your final warning. Now back to the thread.

Glad the mods and admins have started taking moderating seriously. Personal insults and abuse drag a discussion to a pathetic new standard. Also the start a process.

When one person abuses the abused may start too starting a vicious cycle.

Badal 101 again. lol. No I won't talk about the endless cycle this time.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Barakzai Sahab, you want to know what's bothering me?

Rather than storming a hotel and yelling where are the pimps, I can give them the destination where thousands of pimps meet up day and night. Why not attack that? They are "assuming" based on questionable evidence that immoral acts occurred there, no whether that's true or not, based on the binomial distribution, or hypergeometric which ever rule the Taliban applied, why take the risk? They said they were told to kill all the men, now how pathetic is that? Suppose you and I decided to stay there, because we had no relatives in Kabul, what is our fault in this? Because a rag-tag led insurgent group was searching for pimps you and I should suffer? Along with other innocent people? If the aim, or goal was prostitutes(which clearly was the case here) why not attack it's hub? Like I said, unparalleled hypocrisy at it's best.

Caveat:
I'm not justifying immoral acts, or prostitution in Kabul. Nor am I disproving that prostitution occurs. My post reflects more than that. Think about it a little bit. This could've been you and I just relaxing in that hotel, or any of your close relatives -- completely innocent that suffered from misinformation.

Once again I think the theology we can leave to the scholars... the hadith above shows Muhammad (S)'s personal approach which appears to be the most compassionate and the most understanding and the most reasonable meaning that you dont shoot prostitutes and you probably have to give a pimp a fair trial in a true Islamic court. But Im no scholar.

As noted, I think the answer to the question is complex. Referencing what I wrote above:

1) the men who were doing the raid were foot soldiers convinced they were righting some sort of wrong. They, like most soldiers, are conditioned to act when an order is given. Think about it... if a group of 200,000 men from the most advanced country can be told that WMDs exist in a 3rd world country despite questions raised by many experts including their own Scott Ritter... and these 200,000 men can "shock and awe" a whole population with many innocent Admin Khans and Barakzais sitting around in Baghdad... and if that same advanced population is now being convinced that a Persian country near that other country has WMDs... to urge them to intervene there... why is it hard, my friend, for you to see that its easy to tell a foot soldier that some wrong is going on in a hotel frequented by Westerns, Afghan emigre elites, etc.

2) I repeat, then the more important question, leaving foot soldiers out of it, is WHO gave the order?

3) The WHO in question 2 would probably repeat my prior post to you about being able to show that the Taliban can still strike when they please despite having thousands of midlevel commanders supposedly mowed down.

So now Admin, WHO gave the order? WHO told them that prostitutes were there? WHO provided them the intel on the hotel?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Anyone who lives in Kabul knows what goes on in those hotels and restaurants in Taimani Shar-e-naw and Qargha. These things do not remain as secrets. People find out sooner or later. After all, the men and women who work there are from Kabul. One of the biggest pimps in Kabul is a guy who use to be a member of parliament. People know how he would force orphan girls into prostitution for Bagram airbase.

Its not like you have to rely on some sort of secret agency to obtain this information. its common knowledge in Kabul.

Yeah Shamlawar, but this was a well organized raid run by men who likely knew they were going to die. So I think Admin is stoking a good discussion that gets back to the prior post I gave with the listed reasons of as to why this place specifically.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

If a Taliban Mufti gives a fatwa condoning this attack, he must be able to provide his reasoning for such an attack. Since there is no such fatwa, there is no reason for us to assume that this attack was based upon some theological principle.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

If a Taliban Mufti gives a fatwa condoning this attack, he must be able to provide his reasoning for such an attack. Since there is no such fatwa, there is no reason for us to assume that this attack was based upon some theological principle.

Exactly. So then this well coordinated, well planned assault happened and we have no further information. When they ID the dead attackers they should release identities.

[Admin Khan]

Once again I think the theology we can leave to the scholars... the hadith above shows Muhammad (S)'s personal approach which appears to be the most compassionate and the most understanding and the most reasonable meaning that you dont shoot prostitutes and you probably have to give a pimp a fair trial in a true Islamic court. But Im no scholar.

As noted, I think the answer to the question is complex. Referencing what I wrote above:

1) the men who were doing the raid were foot soldiers convinced they were righting some sort of wrong. They, like most soldiers, are conditioned to act when an order is given. Think about it... if a group of 200,000 men from the most advanced country can be told that WMDs exist in a 3rd world country despite questions raised by many experts including their own Scott Ritter... and these 200,000 men can "shock and awe" a whole population with many innocent Admin Khans and Barakzais sitting around in Baghdad... and if that same advanced population is now being convinced that a Persian country near that other country has WMDs... to urge them to intervene there... why is it hard, my friend, for you to see that its easy to tell a foot soldier that some wrong is going on in a hotel frequented by Westerns, Afghan emigre elites, etc.

2) I repeat, then the more important question, leaving foot soldiers out of it, is WHO gave the order?

3) The WHO in question 2 would probably repeat my prior post to you about being able to show that the Taliban can still strike when they please despite having thousands of midlevel commanders supposedly mowed down.

So now Admin, WHO gave the order? WHO told them that prostitutes were there? WHO provided them the intel on the hotel?

Good post Barakzai sahab, I like the logic you applied there. Who? Well, it's too early to speculate. Whoever it was, like I said, is behind a deplorable act given it's outcome, and lame justification.

[Shah-i-Kot]

Then do yourself and the world a favour and put a bullet in your head.

ALL outskirts of Kabu, from Deh Sabzs to Khairkhana are mainly Pashtun inhabitated.
Let the Pashtuns inside Kabul alone.

I don´t know why people like you and other stupid teenagers with no clue about whatsoever come online and try to justify cowardice and murder.

Go to your country, live with the people a couple of months or years, understand their needs and wishes, then you can pick an AK-47 if you think it´s appropiate to liberate people by killing them.
Talking jibberish behind your computers by siding with the enemies of your own people will lead you nowhere.

like I said, my impression is that Kabul and the city was predominantly Tajik.

I am still kind of baffled about this, and it does betray the demographic statistics, but since Khorasani knows obviously more about Afghanistan proper outside of demographic statistics since he has been there, I take his word.

, Pasthuns from Kandahar to Waziristan and beyond have been the entire focus of the NATO war. No border differentiates the bloodshed. Maybe this is what Karzai wants people to believe, but then how does he do that when he supports the airstrikes/night raids throughout Southern and Eastern Afghanistan.

Its almost some perception that Pakistan is some utopia of peace. Nearly all the of KP, FATA, and Balochistan are not at peace, and this is directly a consequence of Pakistan involvement and support for the NATO war. It is the animosity and resentment for this war as to why Imran will have a landslide victory.

Pakistan put itself on a path of destruction by supporting the NATO war, and there is a growing Pashtun backlash . It is not at peace at all for as long as it supports the NATO war in Afghanistan.

It is intellectually dishonest to assume that the Pashtun areas of Pakistan are in a state of peace, and this is usually spun by some Northern Alliance fascist or Amaruleh Saleh types.

The NATO war/occupation is the source of instability

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

There are quite allot of things modern Islamic movements do during warfare that do not have a clear evidence neither do they match Islamic rulings.

That does not mean all Islamic movements should stop doing what they do.

If you go to the Masjid to preform the prayer, you see people making big mistakes during the prayer. Because of them, should people stop praying in congregation? I dont think so.

[Shah-i-Kot]

Once again I think the theology we can leave to the scholars... the hadith above shows Muhammad (S)'s personal approach which appears to be the most compassionate and the most understanding and the most reasonable meaning that you dont shoot prostitutes and you probably have to give a pimp a fair trial in a true Islamic court. But Im no scholar.

As noted, I think the answer to the question is complex. Referencing what I wrote above:

1) the men who were doing the raid were foot soldiers convinced they were righting some sort of wrong. They, like most soldiers, are conditioned to act when an order is given. Think about it... if a group of 200,000 men from the most advanced country can be told that WMDs exist in a 3rd world country despite questions raised by many experts including their own Scott Ritter... and these 200,000 men can "shock and awe" a whole population with many innocent Admin Khans and Barakzais sitting around in Baghdad... and if that same advanced population is now being convinced that a Persian country near that other country has WMDs... to urge them to intervene there... why is it hard, my friend, for you to see that its easy to tell a foot soldier that some wrong is going on in a hotel frequented by Westerns, Afghan emigre elites, etc.

2) I repeat, then the more important question, leaving foot soldiers out of it, is WHO gave the order?

3) The WHO in question 2 would probably repeat my prior post to you about being able to show that the Taliban can still strike when they please despite having thousands of midlevel commanders supposedly mowed down.

So now Admin, WHO gave the order? WHO told them that prostitutes were there? WHO provided them the intel on the hotel?

I guess Hamid Gul gave the order? I think Soldat would say that.




Thats a joke obviously.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Look buddy, you are American born and raised, never stepped foot in any part of Pashtunistan at all.

You're Pakistani, and have no relation to pashtuns what so ever

the end.