Split Discussion: What Can Pashtuns Learn from Panjabis

[Soldat_Amir]

Let me give my view on this.

First of all, lets be fair there, no Afghan king took the pleasure is assisting us to fight for freedom, even Hitler and the Nazi regime offered King Zahir Shah assistance, and help in getting NWFP and Karachi port at the time back but the King refused and remained neutral secondly when Afghanistan woke up from its Durrani empire day dreams, they were rejected by America for assistance and military aid, America refused on the grounds that giving modern weapons to the Afghan army would be used against Pakistan, Pakistan was an ally of America at the time, right, then that forced a Loya Jirga to request help from the Soviet Union hence the reason why Afghans became allies of USSR.

During the Pak-Indo wars, Afghanistan remained neutral once again, even during Bengal wars, best opportunity to get back NWFP was put down once again, only Daud took the steps in liberating Pakhtunkhwa by blowing some bridges up, that's all, no ideology, no political assistance etc.

If Pashtun women in Afghanistan are treated like crap, spat on, forced to parade in bed sheets, used to settle dispites, married off at the young ages of 8 or 9 to grown men, how the hell are we going to fight Pakistan.

A lot of Afghans here, like to mock Punjabis in Pakistan, they say look at their women, naked etc etc, well show me a single female leader in Afghanistan's history, but in Punjab, women are free in urban areas, they are educated, they have access to education while in Swat Pashtun fanatics blow up girls schools.

Our own downfall is due to this, our deluded out view on what is right and wrong.

Now, Pakistan is a phoney state, it was created for Indian Muslims not for Pashtuns, the Pashtun areas were given to them as a token by the British, but to be fair, the only real person who refused to accept Pakistan was Mirza Ali Khan Faqir of Ipi but his own people sold him out, not the Punjabis, they were bribed and bought by the Pakistani authorities.

When ever Pashtuns were in agony in Pakistan, where they yearned for freedom, Afghans did zero to nothing, they did not send their armies in, they did not provide aid or military assistance, they just sat there doing nothing, but when it comes to call of Jihad by Osama and Abdullah Azzam, the Afghans(rural village idoit types) not the Urban educated classes, opened the door to Punjabis, ISI, Col Imam's, Imran Khan types, General Baig's to do Jihad on Afghan government and soviet union.

WE ARE TO BE BLAMED FOR OUR OWN MISTAKES.

Look at this forum, look at the members on it, 9/10 of them are born raised in a modern western country yet they still have those village idoit values that their parents escaped from, so if the Modern nations, with their educational facilities cant correct them, then how would the homegrown ones be like.

I would prefer to be friends and associated with a Secular Anti Islamist Punjabi than a Talib loving fake Pashtun Nationalist, anyday.

To be honest, both sides are at fault, both Pakhtunkhwa and Afghanistan, both are retards, losers, with no ideology, no unity, bandits, criminals, smugglers, fanatics who fight one another for Arabs and ISI.

When a Punjabi female minister was killed in Pakistan some years back by a religous fanatic Punjabay, the whole Punjabi was protesting her innocence if a Pashtun women is killed by a fanatical religous Pashtun, they will say "Jannat shay".

How are we going to compete with Pakistan, when our own society is so retarded and backward, show me a single country that blows up its girls schools, Punjabis welcome education aid from denmark and norway etc etc, they open up schools for the poor rural areas to teach them to write and read while we consider anyone who can read and write as a communist spy.

Our future is going to be dim, Afghanistan looks like it will pertitioned on ethinic lines, Pakistan will be divided, but don't get too happy, because Punjabis will side with india, and enjoy their economical status, Sindhis will get ports and so will baloch, while we Pashtuns will continue to participate in illegal smuggling, drug dealing and tribalism.

When Afghan leaders tried to reform soceity decades ago, our own Pashtuns revolted, like for example when the Safi tribes revolted and "WANTED TO BE AN INDEPENDENT TRIBE WITH NO GOVERNMENT RULING THEM", this is another problem of ours, show me a single Punjabi clan who says we want to be our own state within a state and we dont follow the government, while Pashtun tribes refuse to live with other tribes UNDER ONE GOVERNMENT, and yet there are members on here who are actually proud that Pashtun tribes murder and kill their own government just to live as independent tribal bandits.

Just my most unbiased take on it.

does it mean I am Pro Pakistan...................HELL NO..............Pakistan is a cancer.

[tor_khan]

The posting by Soldat is copied from one made here, but I thought that he brought up an interesting thought that was worth exploring.

The truth is we cannot expect anyone other than ourselves to improve our lot and one of the issues that I think cripples Pashtuns is riding on past nostalgia whilst avoiding contemporary practicalities. It is a 'head in the sand' approach because we are avoiding the issues that blight us. Soldat makes this key point. We live in a world where the nature of politics and conquest has changed from the past and a nation at war/conflict cannot make the some progress as those with relative peace.

Are Pashtuns the victims of their own false pride when viewing the land east of the Indus through the lens of past conquerors? Do we fall into the trap of the dismissing Pakistan as something lesser when not considering some of the social achievements in urban Panjab? There is still a lot wrong with Pakistan, but that would be a separate thread of course.

The opportunities to advance socially appear to be 'absent' in large sections of the Pashtun belt and a key unavoidable is the comparison of the opportunities that women have due to a whole range of factors. The life of the Panjabi women in Islamabad, Lahore etc. with their freedoms - to work/not to work/meet her friends at the mall for lunch is a stark contrast with the rigidity imposed on Pashtun women elsewhere. The Economic Survey of Pakistan 2009-2010 showed a 1.6% drop in urban female education in the Pashtun belt from the year previously and 20.4% behind the urban Panjab during the same period.

If we are to be able to compete then in short, I don't believe that we are in a complete position to dismiss everything about the Panjab as entirely negative and not to be learned from.

[Khostai]

we can learn how to back stab peopel like a pro
LOL.

[abassinafghan]

just poof him wrong munafiq shadowguy .

its easy calling people kafir and munafiq , proof him wrong by facts instead to bark

[abassinafghan]

khodaipak ye ? i just presume to judge people wether they are pashtuns and afghans and following their peoples interesst or the interesst of others.

But it seems you presume to judge people wether they are muslim or not , munafiq or not kafir or not , mashallah it seems you replaced allah and you can see thrue the internet into peoples hearts minds and souls .

I never knew that such people existed .....


But anyways , if you complain and wants to show us how soldat is wrong than just proof it ....show us in which points and how he is wrong ,and do it by taking his claims amd words .


Otherwise if you continue to talk like a donkey than accept to be treated like one

khar tana de soti ou lashte pe zsaba poigi .....

[KingOfAriana]

the only think learnable from culture and historyless panjabis is how to backstab someone for us dollars. They have achieved nothing. While Afghanistan has, only 30 years of war destroyed it. just wait.

[JattApache]

The education

[abassinafghan]

Tezzan malum dey naast pe europa ke , pe dzwand ke talib ne lidalai ne de talibano siasat walle de mullah omar dol delta daba wi .

Its easy to say such words on the net ,i dare you to say into my face punjabiboy shadowgak.

I agree on some points he mentions but not @all . However it seems to me that get very upset about this ?

Yes our people dont care about education as they should some donkeys told them in schools children are tought horrible immoral things , so they belive it because isi maulama said so ,same the isi maulama who will find an excuse for pakistani sell off over and over again .

Regardless wether what they are saying is true or not .


a feudal society where those who have something belive they can secure their income ,which consisted of the production of mewa ou kishmish by taking advantage of the poor and keeping them dumb till eternity .for the case they would ask for betterment of their situation .

Unable and willing to prosper ,satisfied by what they could squeez out of poor peoples work on the lowest level ,that is what our elites were that is what our khan aka khars were .

Just take lynx or shadowgak , both of them barely old enough to clean up their butts , never lived under talibans rule let alone saw a talib in real life ,but talking about "secularists " ,"munafiqs", and "kafirs ". And looking for some one to blame .

Not because they can proof their claims not because they understand the situation or see the why and how . No they are like parrots and in their insecure and childish way to find their heros and own identiy especially lynx ,who is probably born in the usa and lived in his so called home country or other who spent their holidays after 911 there.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I'm going to have to side with Shadowgovernor on this one; it's ok to criticize Pashtuns and validly there are many social and cultural problems within Pashtun society

but when I read the part about "spitting in women's faces" this reeked of nothing but an attempt to Theatricize and manufacture a dramatized narrative.

Pashtuns do mistreat women; but not anymore or less than Punjabis mistreating women. The conflation of Political Activity in Pashtun areas vs punjabi in contrast to other social issues in regards to women; is an intellectually dishonest tactic of trying to justify associate something irrelevant with other injustices. In other words to solve one problem we need to address some other totally irrelevant issue.

[abassinafghan]

No you asked for my facebook profile , i dont use facebook i avoid to support zionists but we can meet via pm if you like .

no i dont spit on women in my family and i avoid to spit on people in general .


However if i had a daughter i would encourage her to become a doctor , and if i had a wive and she would become sick ,i woul prefare a female afghan doctor who would treat her than a dark skinned punjabi man who would touch her everywhere .


How ever in order to have accsess to female doctors those women need accsess to education. ,and , education doest mean mini skirt and to sent your daughter to school or university doesnt mean she becomes a ***** like some people laim or tries to talk about tradition , meanwhile they not only study by theirself ,open corpses and go to student parties to ***** arround .

[abassinafghan]

Where did all your relatives recieved their education .? During the 90s. The only university which was open was in kabul and also only periodically , sometimes the situation was security wise unstable also during talibans rule and sometimes it was just not possible because of the overall situation (profs where not there some fleed ,sometimes the winter was too harsh no possibility of heating material ) and only i two or three masmoons .

In the 80s all people regardless being commies or not were labeld as such if they were working at the state ,being teachers or prof at the university or even students they were labeled kafir or munafiq ..... and not only students were attacked but also teachers ,just to create unrest and show the inability of the goverment .and no this people didnt deserved it at any degree .

if majority of pashtuns support education how does it come that in afg. Hazaras are so smart to sent all their breed to the university while our pashtuns lack behind .? They sent also their daughters to university mean while our sisters. Sit on the street as beggers .

How does it come that even in the west , hazaras tajiks and others ,emphazise to sent their children to university , meanwhile our youthts. Barely finishes school and work on markets selling chinese crap or open a shop , spending their past time with good for nothing self proclaimed salafis grow a beard , and jump arround with every second word mashallah subhanallah ,and live of wellfare ,or even worse. Gamble ,drink and whorimg arround .


And as much as others claim or try to say this as soldat does , no the americans are not there to change this problems , they created them at the first place and made them worse .

And no it has nothing to do with islam. One thing are political problems , and other thing is problems of society .

They may overlap sometimes , and some times people take advantage . If people were concernd so much about womens rights there a alot of countries where woman suffer also but they are still not invaded ....and some of them dont have a major muslim population .

But to claim that we are a country of progressive and education friendly people is not true even long before the war , only the smart and reasonable ones sent their children to school .many didnt wether because of poverty or " maktabe ze pekar dey pe dart ne chori ,da staram kam khalqo ou maktabe pe ze ,moyoum ne dai dara jahan moyoum ne dai akhirat moyoum dey."

Telling them thos life is totally unimportant so to become a real good muslim they have to learn al albani tamiyae or adbul wahab collection of hadith or fiq ...

and the ones in charge didnt do anything against such an attitude and i explained why those narrow minded people did so .


The same case with people here in the west ,wanna be salafi telling you that school and all this unimportant ,so they sent their kids to them for learing hadith and wahabi fiq , negelecting their education in school .

Recieting hadiths wearing a beard but unable to provide for their selfes or gheir family .or be a productive member of society .....

[RevolutionThroughReason]

sorry but you are doing the same tactic like soldat
you throw alot of lies and halftruths and want me to be busy with them.

one of them : hazaras getting educated while pashutns not.
hazaras are in the lap of foreign invaders and their is a war against pashtuns.even than there are more educated Pashutns than hazaras.

so most of your rants are typical of a selfhating pashtun who try to look at pashtuns through the eyes of the ones who hate them.

What do your Hazara friends say when you tell them they're in the lap of foreign invaders?

[tor_khan]

putting this kafirs post on a new thread gets to show that pF staff wants to provoke us Pashtuns.

in his post he disrepects Afghans,instead that he get warning and post deleted our mashar Admin has made him another thread.
truelly a promotion of kufur and disrespect to our mothers.

utterly disgusting,one must not be having a single ounce of selfrespect or respect to Pashtun women or Afghan history to do such a thing.

The intention was to make people think and self reflect. I don't agree with everything that Soldat says incidentally, but then I don't agree that you should jump to conclusions so quickly. Denial doesn't make things better for us I'm afraid.

Yes, it hurts me when I see Afghan kids sifting through garbage in the Panjab. It shouldn't be that way. You don't even have to be against the Panjabis to want to change this. But when urban Panjabis are employing Pashtuns for their menial jobs, ask yourself honestly who has the upper hand. Pride alone doesn't suddenly make you the master in that situation.

And some of the other useless comments in this thread have no place BTW.

[Shah-i-Kot]

Soldat and Abbasin,

All this talk about Mullahs and beards, you fools.. it was the secularist/militant Communists who started all this when they murdered Sardar Daud Khan and his entire family, then buried them in a mass grave.

Daud Khan was not secular enough for these perverts/war hawks/cowards supporting foreign wars/occupation.

Despite the fact that he was ok with women wearing mini skirts in Kabul ...these perverts were not satisfied, in their WARPED sense of PROGRESS, NO, these pervert secular trash were not satisfied. They wanted Kabul women to walk around naked, they wanted homosexuals/lesbians and immorality to be the norm...Pimping and prostitution to be the norm..they wanted Kabul to be Las Vegas.


Then when Daud Khan realized it is best to gravitate towards Muslim nations, these secular rats went and murdered him and his family...


So Soldat, my dear dear friend, look in the mirror at your own ideological leanings, and blame yourself for the situation Pashtuns are in..


Had Sardar Daud Khan not been assassinated by your Communist heroes/False Pashtun nationalists... at least Afghanistan would have resembled even a corrupt state as Pakistan that you admire where at least people can get an education, go to medical school/engineering school/law school, etc etc...work with what is offered, an educations in some semblance of security. Your communist secular militant terrorists wanted war and foreign occupation. Today, these losers have warped into democratists. LOL HAHAHAH

The issue is regardless of Sardar Daud Khan's political leanings, one thing he would not tolerate is a Soviet war and occupation of Afghanistan. This along with his gravitation towards Muslim countries was why he was assassinated by your secular MILITANT terrorist Communist heroes aka FALSE PASHTUN NATIONALISTS

These people are solely to blame for Afghanistan's problems, not the Mullahs. The Mullahs are simply doing what their ancestors did, and what all Pashtuns do.

Pashtuns will never tolerate foreign occupation. Period




BUT NO YOUR COMMUNIST COWARD HEROES DID NOT WANT THAT..

[haviZsultan]

First of all I agree with many of Soldat_Amirs views especially the self reflection on Pashtuns and critical look at our problems... of course it would have been better if he respected my country... but perhaps Mahsuds have gone through a lot which has left them emotionally scarred...

Pashtuns are culturally distinct... our people have their melmastia, their attans, their sabat, their ghairat... their own traditions.

Pashtun culture is actually so strong that outsiders are attracted to it. There is a natural appeal in Pashtun culture and traditions. Weak Pashtuns who barely have 5-10% of Pashtun blood come to seek their roots. Non-Pashtuns take honor in calling themselves Pashtuns (Of course not to say there are racists who's eyes are stapled shut and can't see anything but our hard-headedness which comes from the Northern Afghan anyway.)

Pashtun culture and traditions are addictive. They make a person seek those Pashtun roots out no matter what his background or his history.

I will be able to give more input on this later.

However my point is Pashtuns do not need to copy or imitate anyone though of course we do not need to adopt racism as Afghans like Toramana and racists like Soldat wants us to.

We do not need to learn from the Punjabis... we need to learn from the modern world simply and look how it is advancing and what it has applied to cause this advance. Will keeping our women in our homes serve us or weaken us? In other words Pashtuns need to CHANGE their culture with changing times according to current practices and standards without losing some of their originality and good things.

In reality this is a delicate task. The Pashtun will have to send his woman to school or college but should not lose his Namus. The Pashtun will have to stop killing the other Pashtun in the name of tribe or religion but he will have to ensure he does not lose his tribal affiliations (For example the arabs who were once tribal in composition).
I maintain that the tribal structure currently of marrying within the tribe only and accepting no outside interference is coming in the way of Pashtuns advancing. The Pashtun will also need to lose the concept of Badal and adopt forgiveness. This is the only way for advancement. Constant warfare, killing, death and destruction are good for nothing. My book tries to indirectly present that when an injustice is done it leads to a cycle of violence that is near impossible to stop. However someone has to stop. Someone has to say I will forgive and not kill someones family members just because another person committed a crime. Badal needs to go into the dustbin of history because revenge is an endless concept. It needs to be replaced with love, tolerance and winning people over.

I will also say that Pakistan's strength is its diversity. While I was in Canada I used (even though in the end they shut down our organizations and treat us like **** and want us to follow their version of reality) to often wonder why they focused so much on diversity. What did it mean to them. However we Pakistanis even though we have so many different cultures we seek to keep them down... in the name of a strange form of Pakistani Nationalism. We have constantly tried to crush the growth of indigenous cultures in Pakistan and the consequences are right before us.

I know a contact (he helped me with my book a little-served as an on the ground source) who says "I only want Pashto in my motherland, I want my culture, my language in my land."

Strengthening the indigenous cultures will greatly strengthen the unity of Pakistan. Generally we are not taught to criticize such aspirations of people but I will say it was extremely necessary for our leaders to understand the ethnic composition of Pakistan and give each culture its space and freedom.