What if there is a UNION between Afghanistan & Pakistan

[Ghorzang]

OK.. I am a little bit lost here.. Do you think we should have a union between Afghanistan & Pakistan, or no? Why?

[Ghorzang]

[QUOTE=lynx;605459]

Without Pakistan support, the NATO war/Karzai regime does not last.

Just to add a comment to this part of your post, if the Americans want, they can actually bomb Pakistan back to the stone age or any other country for that reason. Why they haven't done so already, I am sure they have their reasons.

[Shah-i-Kot]

Afghanistan in the future will need access to ports- an independent and free Afghanistan.

However, while obviously not the only reason, Afghanistan not having an access to a port right now- is one of the reasons that the US/NATO is on the verge of a humiliating defeat- (talk of pact is rubbish when you consider the actual context- this is actually the reason Ryan Crocker is getting so angry even after signing so called pact with the puppet Karzai). Strategically, this is a fact.

Pakistan has supported the US/NATO/Karzai war with the critical supply routes, and previously supported drone attacks. These actions have led to the bloodshed of Pashtuns. In this regard, Pakistan has not been protective of either the Pashtun population within Pakistan, and especially within Afghanistan. Those bullets used in the Kandahar massacre came from Pakistan air supply routes.


It would only be wise for Afghanistan to join with Pakistan when it is ruled by a sensible religious Pashtun PM, and a Pashtun Army general, only those who would never support war upon Pashtuns as Musharraf did when he supported NATO/Karzai with supply routes.

I dont know when this will happen, but when it does, this is the only time that that can be considered, basically, when an emergent Pashtun block is in place (not the Awami National Party because that is largely a joke)

[Shah-i-Kot]

[QUOTE=Ghorzang;605464]

Just to add a comment to this part of your post, if the Americans want, they can actually bomb Pakistan back to the stone age or any other country for that reason. Why they haven't done so already, I am sure they have their reasons.

well, your question is your answer. Why have they not done it? When will they do it?

Why are they not threatening North Korea over its nuclear program?

Why have they not gone to war with Iran yet?

Why did they go to war with a defenseless Iraq (with no offensive capabilities)? And Libya?

You tell me

[Shah-i-Kot]

If it could be done, it would have been done.

Iraq war 2003 is evidence for that^

[Ghorzang]

Afghanistan in the future will need access to ports- an independent and free Afghanistan.

However, while obviously not the only reason, Afghanistan not having an access to a port right now- is one of the reasons that the US/NATO is on the verge of a humiliating defeat- (talk of pact is rubbish when you consider the actual context- this is actually the reason Ryan Crocker is getting so angry even after signing so called pact with the puppet Karzai). Strategically, this is a fact.

Pakistan has supported the US/NATO/Karzai war with the critical supply routes, and previously supported drone attacks. These actions have led to the bloodshed of Pashtuns. In this regard, Pakistan has not been protective of either the Pashtun population within Pakistan, and especially within Afghanistan. Those bullets used in the Kandahar massacre came from Pakistan air supply routes.


It would only be wise for Afghanistan to join with Pakistan when it is ruled by a sensible religious Pashtun PM, and a Pashtun Army general, only those who would never support war upon Pashtuns as Musharraf did when he supported NATO/Karzai with supply routes.

I dont know when this will happen, but when it does, this is the only time that that can be considered, basically, when an emergent Pashtun block is in place (not the Awami National Party because that is largely a joke)

There is no doubt about Pakistan's interference in Afghanistan and it is crystal clear as to "Why?".

Both our crucial neighbours (who can provide us access to the sea/world) are acting as our enemies. It would have been been so much better if at least one of them would have been on our side. We either have to make friendship with one of these 2 countries or get rid of one.

There is absolutely no way for Afghanistan to align with Iran (from a Pashtun and Sunni perspective - they would Shiaize and Persianize the entire country in no time). Breaking and weakening Iran is also out of the question at the moment.

Therefore Pakistan plays a very important role. If Afghanistan wants to have a piece of mind, it either has to breakdown Pakistan into smaller states (we obviously can't do it ourself), or some how form a union/friendship with it. One way or another we have to guarantee Pakistan that we do not want Balochistan and Pakhtunkhwa any more and we are willing to accept the durrand line. Both break-up and union/friendship are possible.

The best thing about a union is that, neither Pakistan nor Afghanistan is losing any land. It will be a single and larger state - name it Ariana to keep every one happy.

This is my personal opinion and thought, but I have been thinking that one way or another, we have to solve our problems with Pakistan. Afghanistan can never afford to major enemies on 2 fronts blocking their access to the world, interfering in it's politics and so on.

This topics was started so we can discuss the UNION option between Afghanistan and Pakistan if it was every possible.

well, your question is your answer. Why have they not done it? When will they do it?

Why are they not threatening North Korea over its nuclear program?

Why have they not gone to war with Iran yet?

Why did they go to war with a defenseless Iraq (with no offensive capabilities)? And Libya?

You tell me

There can be many reasons like (1) two wars were more than enough for the time being (2) they needed a supply route and like a puppet, Pakistan was doing whatever the master ordered it to do - there was no reason to attack them (3) now that Pakistan has closed it's supply route, there is a very good reason for the Americans to take care of the Balochistan issue - a permanent and stable supply route (4) now that they are out of Iraq and will be reducing the number of troops in Afghanistan, they can easily attack Iran/Pakistan if/when needed (5) why should they attack interfere in Pakistan if they are planning to reduce their troops in Afghanistan? The answer can be why they attacked Afghanistan in the first place? or what would they gain from turning Pakistan into pieces? maybe cutting China's access to the Indian Ocean or all these other political and economic reasons (6) North Korea is not an issue for US and attacking it would be like strangling China - they will never in their dreams attack NK (7) and many more.

[Khostai]

you say Iran can persianize whole Afghanistan population but what about Punjabizing whole Afghan population. Punjabis are not culturless poepel, they also have there own culture that for most of PAshtuns form afghanistan is totaly alien. Didn't you think about that.....

[Admin Khan]

I think Pashtuns of Pakistan are making good progress and will never like to join a land-locked Afghanistan and live under Persian/Tajik cultural and (now) military domination. Unification under regional integration is, however, another matter, which they may look at favorably. Presently, they are spreading fast from Islamabad all the way to Karachi securing themselves access to sea-ports.

This is a funny comment. First of all, Pashtuns in this day and age are not capable of deciding who to live under. With such a staggering uneducated populace, we are in no position to control our fate, let alone "choose". Just yesterday I met an Afridi, and I was astonished at his views. He pretty much told me he is willing to spit on the name of Pashtunkhwa if it means he will be granted American citizenship. That's how bad the situation there is. Allow me to remind you, he is a Ph.D student studying Mathematics here at Cornell, and his objective is bringing his family to the US, from what he called the "ghetto"[Pakistan].

Pashtuns of Pukhtunkhwa live under the Punjabi/non-Pashtun cultural and military domination already, so I'm not sure if Persian would be any different. Either way you put, the situation is bad, real bad. I do agree that some teeney tiney progress has been made. Give Pashto 100 years in Pakistan, I can almost assure that if nothing changes in the upcoming decade, then Pashto is well on the verge of extinction in Pakistan. Despite having 50-60million speakers, the language is getting zero to none technical attention.

[Blue Flower]

Since i joined the PF i have noticed that there is a strange punjabi phobia on our pakhtun minds we have our own culture there are various other cultures also and no state can ever have all its citizens having same ethenicity.

We should realize that we have been living in a single country even before Islam it was only when British Forces seperated us and now we are on the same path.

I think in a new state it will create a unique balance between Pakhtuns, Punjabi,(Sindhi & Seraiki) with pakhtuns having more provinces and a dominant chance of centeral government.

Remember we have since ages never converted anyone on our pakhtun culture , so no one can convert us also it is up to us we take care of our culture and make it intact.

[Ghorzang]

you say Iran can persianize whole Afghanistan population but what about Punjabizing whole Afghan population. Punjabis are not culturless poepel, they also have there own culture that for most of PAshtuns form afghanistan is totaly alien. Didn't you think about that.....

Punjabi language and culture is almost the weakest in Pakistan. The lingua franca and national language of Pakistan is Urdu, not Punjabi. Pashto language is taught as a subject in schools, while Punjabi isn't - from what I have heard. There is absolutely no room for us to compare Persian with Punjabi or Iran with Pakistan. They are far more superior culturally, linguistically, economically, politically or in any other aspect than any other country in that region.

Any union with Iran will be disastrous for us Pashtuns, our language, our culture and our religion (Sunni-Islam).

Since i joined the PF i have noticed that there is a strange punjabi phobia on our pakhtun minds we have our own culture there are various other cultures also and no state can ever have all its citizens having same ethenicity.

We should realize that we have been living in a single country even before Islam it was only when British Forces seperated us and now we are on the same path.

I think in a new state it will create a unique balance between Pakhtuns, Punjabi,(Sindhi & Seraiki) with pakhtuns having more provinces and a dominant chance of centeral government.

Remember we have since ages never converted anyone on our pakhtun culture , so no one can convert us also it is up to us we take care of our culture and make it intact.

Absolutely agree with you here.

If we were to ever create a union between Afghanistan & Pakistan, it is very likely that Pashtuns will be able to dominate it - well not if they remain asleep.

[Ghorzang]

"Linguistic" census reduce Pakhtuns' population in Pakistan from 35 % to 15%
Jan Assakzai

Though the official number of Pakhtuns in Pakistan constitutes 15 percent of country's population, some NGOs and observers believe that their actual number could be between 40 to 50 million comprising over 35 percent of country's population, provided and "ethnic" demographic is carried out instead of "linguistic" census. The main reason for Pakhtuns' under counting is the census only choice: spoken-language-at home-principle whilst there is no racial or ethnic background choices available in the census form as is the case in multi-cultural countries like the United State or United Kingdom.

here is the article.. http://21centuryreforms.blogspot.ca/...-pakhtuns.html

[KGODB]

never in a million years will i ever accept this idea

i would rather fence and mine the durand

[randolph85]

i don't even trust afghans to run afghanistan, i sure as hell wouldn't trust non afghans who have historical animosity towards us to work well with us. in the grand scheme of an islamic union i think its possible...in like 200 years. both our houses are on fire, a union any time soon would just be a bigger house with bigger flames. afghanistan is trouble, and pakistan has played out its islamic solidarity card decades ago.

[Talal]

how do you propose a merger will solve any problems ? I do think that they need to work together and tackle their problems looking out for each other's interest..that will serve both countries better than a merger.

[R3SISTANC3]

Access to the sea becomes irrelevant depending on the industries a nation decides to pursue. Countries like Switzerland and Hungary are landlocked however prosperous at the same time because of their use of technology. If Afghans continue to think along the lines of pushing donkeys up and down the Khyber Pass with goods then yes access to the seas is important. If they start thinking out of the box like for example the technological industries of India, Korea or Japan they'll do incredibly well. Replace hard labor with smart work.

Pakistan even with it's access to the waters is in dire financial strains. It is economically blocked from the rest of the world when it comes to doing business through the technology industry. Many Pakistani software firms, IT firms, can't actually do business because of the limitations imposed on the nation. While Indians are making head ways. Visit Silicon Valley and witness their technological, especially software based work force.

Indians no longer have to leave their villages to make bank thanks to the wise decisions of their countrymen by perusing technology = software.