For the Loy Afghanistan/Pashtunistan supporters....

[torkham]

Pohay naslu, da nakhwal kay ka safa khabara?.

I also agree with amir's sentiments, out of all he is most compatible with ground realities. Lar Pashtuns in order to lead qualitative lives, had to integrate themeselves into Pakistan, there was no reason to go for isolation. As civilized people we have participated in politics of Pakistan, there was no sense in bycotting it. But i dont agree with you that our cultural influences are from Pakistan (bhangra and urdu culture). According to oxford culture is "art , literature, music and other intellectual expressions of a particular society"...our art, literature, music etc are still in pashto and are same as that of Afghanistan. Lar and bar Pashtuns still share same culture and traditions...With respect to culture we have not yet integrated into mainstream pakistani cultures i.e punjabi and urdu cultures. Our culture and pashto is intact and strong

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Thanks for slapping us hard. Why you are taking urban area of peshawer as representative of whole Pakhtunkhwa?..rural people of KP and Afghanistan are equally hardcore pashtuns...the case of urban centres like kabul and peshawer are different...and why you are equating damans with pashtuns?...these are damans who are performing these mujras...how dare you , you equate honourable pashtuns of KP with these damans...let me slap some fact into you, ever heard of word ghilam jams , the popular afghan prostitues of peshawer?
hardcore pashtun of FATA? your mohmand of mohmand agency is as much integrated into Pakistan as khalil of peshawer.

[/QUOTE]

Luffy Jan I am not separating pashtuns out, I quotation-marked word pathan to show a term to identify pashtuns in Pakistan; this is what pashtuns are called by pashtuns and non-pashtuns in pakistan – my experience. I would not use this term with westerners, it propagates a fabrication. Even arabs call Pakistani pashtun ‘pathan’.
With reference to OED meaning of culture, Luffy Jan I stated popular culture, not high culture, the former is more prevalent and insidious, which is why it alarms me.
Lala indeed I am senior to you young turks, and correctly we speak Pashto amongst ourselves but English can be a matter of convenience, like now, and Dari and Urdu for similar reason, when they cannot speak Pashto. It is common sense to make life easy to get on with duties.
You are right Luffy, many pashtuns speak/sing in Dari, some have lost Pashto and only speak Dari, like the last king.
I am not criticizing, you can see both sides have adapted to a language not ours (urdu in pak, dari in afgh’stan), I was referring to the point raised by Amir Ghaznazi’s original post.
Again the pathan in bold is not to call you pathan but to identify lar or bar pashtuns, I will correct myself and refer to Apshtuns for larwals, and Ppashtuns for barwals.
I don’t know momands in Pak but I am sure they are integrated in Pak culture as you assert, that is normal, and it is that what concerned Amir’s original point.
Luffy I have no intentions of slapping you. I am sure I made it clear the respect I have for FATA pashtuns. Peshawar is a cosmopolitan city, Hindko speaking riksha drivers urdu babbling here and there, Panjabi women with head uncovered walking in bazaars, people for all over Pakistan are there – that’s why I mentioned it as influential city. People in search of work, education and opportunities gravitate to cities – hence the influence of Peshawar being more significant over rural KPK.
As for slapping hard facts to me Luffy, you present afghan fahshsa of Peshawar to me!!! (the mashrana as you have referred to me) alluding it as evidence of cultural decay amongst afghans?
Luffy prostitution is not due, exclusively to cultural decay but a moral decay of an individual due continued deprivation of social support, hopelessness, abuse, manipulation and exploitation.
Luffy Jan, you are right there are many egos amongst lar and bar pashtunsJ and it is a frailty of civilized people to look down on other as who is purer, who speaks better, who is better etc. This is not my case and clearly not yours either – we are muslim and pashtun of one ummah.

[Michin Khel]

Luffy Jan I am not separating pashtuns out, I quotation-marked word pathan to show a term to identify pashtuns in Pakistan; this is what pashtuns are called by pashtuns and non-pashtuns in pakistan ¨C my experience. I would not use this term with westerners, it propagates a fabrication. Even arabs call Pakistani pashtun ¡®pathan¡¯.
With reference to OED meaning of culture, Luffy Jan I stated popular culture, not high culture, the former is more prevalent and insidious, which is why it alarms me.
Lala indeed I am senior to you young turks, and correctly we speak Pashto amongst ourselves but English can be a matter of convenience, like now, and Dari and Urdu for similar reason, when they cannot speak Pashto. It is common sense to make life easy to get on with duties.
You are right Luffy, many pashtuns speak/sing in Dari, some have lost Pashto and only speak Dari, like the last king.
I am not criticizing, you can see both sides have adapted to a language not ours (urdu in pak, dari in afgh¡¯stan), I was referring to the point raised by Amir Ghaznazi¡¯s original post.
Again the pathan in bold is not to call you pathan but to identify lar or bar pashtuns, I will correct myself and refer to Apshtuns for larwals, and Ppashtuns for barwals.
I don¡¯t know momands in Pak but I am sure they are integrated in Pak culture as you assert, that is normal, and it is that what concerned Amir¡¯s original point.
Luffy I have no intentions of slapping you. I am sure I made it clear the respect I have for FATA pashtuns. Peshawar is a cosmopolitan city, Hindko speaking riksha drivers urdu babbling here and there, Panjabi women with head uncovered walking in bazaars, people for all over Pakistan are there ¨C that¡¯s why I mentioned it as influential city. People in search of work, education and opportunities gravitate to cities ¨C hence the influence of Peshawar being more significant over rural KPK.
As for slapping hard facts to me Luffy, you present afghan fahshsa of Peshawar to me!!! (the mashrana as you have referred to me) alluding it as evidence of cultural decay amongst afghans?
Luffy prostitution is not due, exclusively to cultural decay but a moral decay of an individual due continued deprivation of social support, hopelessness, abuse, manipulation and exploitation.
Luffy Jan, you are right there are many egos amongst lar and bar pashtunsJ and it is a frailty of civilized people to look down on other as who is purer, who speaks better, who is better etc. This is not my case and clearly not yours either ¨C we are muslim and pashtun of one ummah.[/QUOTE]

Thank you sir for detailed clarification of your stance. I agree with all of your points. Regarding pathan point i mistaken it for mocking, sorry for that. We do not call ourselves pathan, e.g we dont say "za pathan yama" but it is right that we are used to being called pathans by non-pashtuns. I would be very more than grateful if you use lar pashtuns or larwals for us. I use word "Afghan" for bar pashtuns because it is an honourable title but pathan is some what derogatory. If you have noticed the behaviour of your countrymen, when they mock us , they use word "pathan" for us.
I live in Peshawer, it is a filthy city with degraded dou number people who are disgrace on the name of pashtuns..thats why i over-reacted when you specifically mentioned peshawer but not other areas. But again most of Afghans have experiences with peshawer so it cant be helped. Otherwise rural area of my lakki marwat and rural area of your sarobi share more aspects of pashto than with urban centres.
Urdufication of pashtuns exist in those who are permenantly settled in islamabad, rawalpindi, lahore and karachi. They are not only forgetting pashto but are also having intermarraiges with non-pashtuns...this is a natural process but some how our people become more careless about their mother tongue when they are in those non-pashtun cities and loses it fastly....we are minority in pakistan, in this country ethno-centric approach is not encouraged thats why we are prone to influences but i would never understand the popularity of langauge of minority (dari) over pashto in afghanistan.

[Michin Khel]

Following groups of Pashtuns of Pakistan are hindrance in path of loy Afghanistan.
1- All of feudals, nawabs, malaks and khans of khyber Pakhtunkhwa, FATA and Balochistan: They were ok with British and now they are ok with Pakistan. Their interests lie with Pakistan .Forexample khan of meena khel in my district , anwar kamal khan marwat. His father was speaker of national assembley of pakistan. His brother is a political agent. Another khan of my district, khans of ghazni khel, the saifullahs, who are big names in pakistani politics but they strongely opposed renaming of NWFP.

2- Pashtun business community: they dont want their businesses to be disrupted and as most of their businesses are linked with rest of pakistan. Forexample malak imran of our area has more than 300 tankers who are active from khyber to karachi. Or haji kabir of my area who has five star hotel in lahore, the famous ambassador hotel. Such businessmen are more than happy in pakistan.
3-Pashtuns in beaurocracy and army: if such families are part of power structure of pakistan then it means they have zero percent inclination towards loy afghanistan. Infact they would actively oppose it.
4-Docters and engineers: These people are insensitive about loy afghanistan because their jobs are tied to pakistan. Destination and dreams of such professionals is not afghanistan, it is westren countries.
5- Teachers: in bangladesh freedom movement played an important role. Here in pakhtunkhwa school and college teachers are from middle class and have their own problems...they are doing their duty and are working day and night with tuitions to make money. I am surprised why afghanistan and india never poured money to these teachers for "brainwashing" kids.
6- Politicians: Those pashtuns who are participating in politics for loot can never think of joining politically unstable and poor afghanistan...
7- Religous people: they are worried about whole muslim uma. Their sentiments for afghanistan are purely on the basis of islam. And they are strongest supporters of pakistan, e.g jumat-e-islami, JUI, tablighi, pirs etc
8-Middle class: They are worried about daily life problems like rooti, kaprra and makan. They are frustrated, large incentives are needed to motivate them for loy afghanistan.
9: Poor: They are trying to survive, they cant afford to think about complex political issues.

[Khaak]

With respect to culture we have not yet integrated into mainstream pakistani cultures i.e punjabi and urdu cultures. Our culture and pashto is intact and strong.

[/QUOTE]

You think so?

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Your statement is true for Pashtuns of Balochistan...not that of NWFP...check youtube and even porn site.

[Ghundal]

luffy, I think Loy Afghanistan will happen sometime after a free Afghanistan has developed

Give or take 20 to 30 years.

Once there is non-interference, it can materialize

You forget one major issue though. Throughout, there is a perception spread against Pashtuns where Pashtuns are termed as terrorists and backwards

I think this was done in order to justify and support Pak operations in Waziristan.

It is a sticking point because many, especially Pakistani elite term Pashtuns like this.

[Michin Khel]

luffy, I think Loy Afghanistan will happen sometime after a free Afghanistan has developed

Give or take 20 to 30 years.

Once there is non-interference, it can materialize

You forget one major issue though. Throughout, there is a perception spread against Pashtuns where Pashtuns are termed as terrorists and backwards

I think this was done in order to justify and support Pak operations in Waziristan.

It is a sticking point because many, especially Pakistani elite term Pashtuns like this.

I agree with you. If some how afghanistan becomes stable country with peace and strong economy, then thoughts towards loy afghanistan would start generating...afterall blood is thicker than water...joining afghanistan in currunt state would be like suicide for lar pashtuns.
About terrorist label, i would say our people are still in darkness about greater games played with them. Our weakness is that we are religously sentimental and they are exploiting our this weakness.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Olaf Caroe was Russophobe and didn't see British benefit in the political amalgamation of Pashtuns on either side of the durand. Second of all, Peshawar area is very different from the other parts of Pashtunkhwa, this was especially the case then, where the political and tribal divisions were very deep. Third of all, Peshawar has changed a lot with the arrival of millions of people of Afghanistan. It was once a city centre filled with non-pashtuns surrounded by Pashtun suburbs/rural areas...this is no longer the case.
Pashtuns are being culturally weakened in the urban areas simply because we have no strong political or cultural platform. Afghanistan is weak and Pashtunkhwa is political divided and just recently got some political autonomy. How can they stop the influence of urdu/hindi, farsi or english. Just flip the channels on cable television or go walk down the streets and check what media dominates.

Amir you are being a little unfair with Pashtunkhwa Pashtuns imho. ISI already has their political leverage and they got that because of a good number of sell outs on both sides of the durand line.

Pashtun political union will take a while and is dependent on many regional factors, most of which, are outside our political control.

I dont dispute that at all, brother. In fact, most of the manipulation historically has been from Kabul.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

but i would never understand the popularity of langauge of minority (dari) over pashto in afghanistan.

Its very simple Luppy Khana. Pashto has never been a language with a great written tradition, it has never been a language of education or business

Farsi however is one of the greatest languages in the world, and the language of business and education in our part of the world for thousands of years.

Lar Pashtuns until the turn of the century conducted business in Farsi until replaced by Urdu for political reasons.

Pashto can never compete with Farsi

[Khostai]

Following groups of Pashtuns of Pakistan are hindrance in path of loy Afghanistan.
1- All of feudals, nawabs, malaks and khans of khyber Pakhtunkhwa, FATA and Balochistan: They were ok with British and now they are ok with Pakistan. Their interests lie with Pakistan .Forexample khan of meena khel in my district , anwar kamal khan marwat. His father was speaker of national assembley of pakistan. His brother is a political agent. Another khan of my district, khans of ghazni khel, the saifullahs, who are big names in pakistani politics but they strongely opposed renaming of NWFP.

2- Pashtun business community: they dont want their businesses to be disrupted and as most of their businesses are linked with rest of pakistan. Forexample malak imran of our area has more than 300 tankers who are active from khyber to karachi. Or haji kabir of my area who has five star hotel in lahore, the famous ambassador hotel. Such businessmen are more than happy in pakistan.
3-Pashtuns in beaurocracy and army: if such families are part of power structure of pakistan then it means they have zero percent inclination towards loy afghanistan. Infact they would actively oppose it.
4-Docters and engineers: These people are insensitive about loy afghanistan because their jobs are tied to pakistan. Destination and dreams of such professionals is not afghanistan, it is westren countries.
5- Teachers: in bangladesh freedom movement played an important role. Here in pakhtunkhwa school and college teachers are from middle class and have their own problems...they are doing their duty and are working day and night with tuitions to make money. I am surprised why afghanistan and india never poured money to these teachers for "brainwashing" kids.
6- Politicians: Those pashtuns who are participating in politics for loot can never think of joining politically unstable and poor afghanistan...
7- Religous people: they are worried about whole muslim uma. Their sentiments for afghanistan are purely on the basis of islam. And they are strongest supporters of pakistan, e.g jumat-e-islami, JUI, tablighi, pirs etc
8-Middle class: They are worried about daily life problems like rooti, kaprra and makan. They are frustrated, large incentives are needed to motivate them for loy afghanistan.
9: Poor: They are trying to survive, they cant afford to think about complex political issues.

Such a long post, why don't you just say that there is no Pashtun in Pakistan that wants a Loy Afghanistan becuase they all want money and don't care about culture or that there peopel would be stronger united. But its not only Pakistan a lot of peopel in Afghanistan have also said good bey to this Loy Afghanistan dream, its geting further away day by day.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Such a long post, why don't you just say that there is no Pashtun in Pakistan that wants a Loy Afghanistan becuase they all want money and don't care about culture or that there peopel would be stronger united. But its not only Pakistan a lot of peopel in Afghanistan have also said good bey to this Loy Afghanistan dream, its geting further away day by day.

People eat food not ideas

[Soldat_Amir]

Dear Amir Ghaznavi

I would like to dispute your claim with the following:-

1)When Daud was pushing for a Pashtunistan you had both Pashtuns and Tajiks running to the ISI to oppose these moves, some for fear of a Pashtun majority while others did it in the name of Islamic Jihad.

2)There are sell outs on both sides of the Durrand line, you have the Afghan Pashtun sell outs and the Pakistani Pashtun sell outs, this is due to tribalism and selfishness.

3)ISI and Pakistan has been meddling in Afghanistan for decades, we could have had our unity and freedom but sadly the sell outs were more smarter than us.

[graveyardofempires]

Dear Amir Ghaznavi

I would like to dispute your claim with the following:-

1)When Daud was pushing for a Pashtunistan you had both Pashtuns and Tajiks running to the ISI to oppose these moves, some for fear of a Pashtun majority while others did it in the name of Islamic Jihad.

2)There are sell outs on both sides of the Durrand line, you have the Afghan Pashtun sell outs and the Pakistani Pashtun sell outs, this is due to tribalism and selfishness.

3)ISI and Pakistan has been meddling in Afghanistan for decades, we could have had our unity and freedom but sadly the sell outs were more smarter than us.

you calling others sellouts?

[khushal]

^^^
you took the words out of my mouth

[khushal]

let me slap some fact into you, ever heard of word ghilam jams , the popular afghan prostitues of peshawer?
hardcore pashtun of FATA? your mohmand of mohmand agency is as much integrated into Pakistan as khalil of peshawer.

[/QUOTE]

Ghilam jams were used to describe Dostom's Uzbek's militia. The reason his militia was called that was because his militiamen used to loot homes in Kabul and other areas by putting valuables on the carpets and would roll up the carpets and take them away as war booty.
Those Afghan prostitutes in peshawar were farsiwan kabuli women that were mostly widows. The peshawari men lacked ghyrat and abused them.

The Mohmand agency or any other agency is not as integrated as khalil of peshawar. Until the recent invasion, the pakistani flag never flew over the agencies. The TTP is fighting for the status quo before the invasion and that is autonomy. If they were integrated than there would be no TTP.