An Afghan Mullah tells the Truth! (Pashto)

[abassinafghan]

barakzai is that all ? you lived with them as an american , you prayed with them as an guest , but thats it . have you been in 92 , 96 , 98 or 2000 there ? no ! , have you seen your neighbours lying in their own blood on the street ? have you seen how your home was robbed ? how all which you knew was destroyed ? no .

did actually met any taliban ? or a communist or one of the goats which are sitting today there ? no .

you know you call your self an educated man , but again you are worse than the most illiterate in the last corner . with your answers .

how many of your family died actually in this war ? how much of your property of your life was destroyed .

do you know what the taliban did in shamal ? and you know why they are so hated and why this was planned by certain people ? no !

you keep being a internet armchair mujahedin .

you tell me about rural people , and the benefits of the taliban , i will tell you your taliban will make peace with the americans ,and the americans will stay , and you know what ? instead of americans telling them what to do and not to do , again some pakis will do so .

you are so naive like an inocent child , you belive every thing what you are told . but do as you wish ,aslong as you are an good doctor ,who cares .

[unknownprince]

Abbasi, Lets see your sources. Give pages and references.

Now answer all this below word for word. There are Afghan sources as well as non-Afghan sources present there. Please demonstrate your statements with evidential support from Afghan and non-Afghan sources. Thanks

Ahhhh but I have and I do and I speak the language fluently and have lived amongst them, prayed with them, sat in the hujra and knew them.

Da yaw nakhraa tha istimaalaay che bar bar ablahanaay aw bey ilme khabaraay ra'achaay.

Let me show you were you run into incorrect logic.

So what what you have repeatedly said, since you are unable, intellectually to deal with the facts presented by easterners westerners, Americans, Russians, or whomever is: show me Afghan sources. Have you dealt with their evidences? Have you been able to show up a single statement in their work?

No you have not. Instead, you rely on: You are in America and therefore you are wrong.

Do you understand how foolish this makes you look?

Let us apply this logic: So Mullah Abdul Salaam Zaeef is also in Afghanistan. Kawun Kakar is in Afghanistan. Hamid Karzai is in Afghanistan. Zia Mossoud is in Afghanistan. Amrullah Saleh is in Afghanistan.

Its your job to justify why their words are more trustworthy than Michael Scheuers.

And then on top of this you are SELECTIVE. So if Zaeef contradicts you, you say: He is Pakistani. If Kawun Kakar says:

"In reality, the traditional way of life in villages has changed little by Taliban's rule. The situation of Afghans in the countryside controlled by the Taliban has improved because of increased peace and security, giving them the opportunity to rebuild after two decades of war. "

http://www.institute-for-afghan-stud...ntro_kakar.htm

So why are YOU right and why is Kawun Kakar wrong???


Why is that AbbassinAfghan's word trumps Shirin Burki's, an Afghan author????

You ask above, who and when instigated these problems. AFG21 claims that communists were actually responding to religionists. Hogwash. Communism had no native place in Afghanistan whatsoever.

I have previously provided the answer in many places but you choose to waste my time with repeated questions that have been answered.

""Amanullah’s views on women’s role in society were not a response to widespread societal demands; rather they were infl uenced primarily by his in- laws (the highly intellectual Tarzi family) and by unfolding events in the region. Amanullah’s gender policies, however, were completely divorced from the social realities of his extremely conservative, primarily tribal, and geo graph i cally remote country. Thus, under his father- in- law Prime Minister Mahmud Tarzi’s tutelage, he undertook an ambitious and

controversial program meant to transform Af ghan i stan into a modern state in the same mold as Mustafa Kemal Ataturk’s Turkey."

Reference:
http://www.ucpress.edu/content/chapters/11529.ch01.pdf

By Shirin Burki (page 2)

The author goes on to point out, astutely:

Amanullah’s government began by emphasizing secular- based (that is, non- madrassa) education and established the fi rst primary school for girls, Masturat School, in 1921 in Kabul, under the patronage of Queen Soraya.

From 1920 to 1927, two primary schools and one middle school for girls were established in Kabul, with an estimated 700 students. These numbers, however, suggest that despite strong encouragement by the Amir, most Afghans were reluctant to send their daughters to obtain what was characterized as a secular education. Furthermore,

the establishment of girls’ schools was limited to urban areas such as Kabul and Herat and thus failed to benefit the provinces."

So the evidence shows that it was not a selected few mullahs that instigated this. Rather, these forced from the outside reforms were not something that the Afghan people en masse wanted put on them.

Now IT IS YOU THAT HAS TO DEAL WITH THE EVIDENCE OF THESE SOURCES. You look foolish when you simply dismiss them as: oh they are western:

Insurgents, terrorists, and militias: the warriors of contemporary combat By Richard H. Shultz, Andrea J. Dew on page 167

"The PDPA policies for governing Afghanistan, however, proved to be impracticle and alienated the rural population. Some of the PDPA's agricultural policies for example, clashed with the traditional tribal practices of land ownership and use. Moreover attempts by the PDPA to enforce land and labor reform on the rural tribes quickly resulted in a widespread violent rebellion in the provinces.."

The US, State Department independently confirms this history:

"Opposition to the Marxist government emerged almost immediately. During its first 18 months of rule, the PDPA brutally imposed a Marxist-style "reform" program, which ran counter to deeply rooted Afghan traditions. In addition, thousands of members of the traditional elite, the religious establishment, and the intelligentsia were imprisoned, tortured, or murdered. Conflicts within the PDPA also surfaced early and resulted in exiles, purges, imprisonments, and executions."

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5380.htm

Dr. Amstutz confirms this in his text: Afghanistan, the First Five Years of Soviet Occupation:

page 239 reads:

"So instead of winning the support of the landless peasents, the Taraki Amin regimes caused agrarian chaos and misery...The Marxists had expecte that their land reform program would gain widespread rural support. However, just the opposite occured. Much of the armed rebellion that broke out in 1978 was related to land reform. The peasantry provided the resistance with its MOST enthusiastic support."

http://books.google.com/books?id=RUS...page&q&f=false

Indian Author Nijjir, independently confirms this:

"But friction arose between the two factions, and their Marxist reform programs sparked major rebellions in the countryside in 1979."

http://books.google.com/books?id=xQM...page&q&f=false

4. Regarding the popularity of the people's portion of the uprising, Journey Man Films, which also published one of the only pro soviet, or soviet imbed films from the 1980s (hence their lack of bias) provided us this:

Afghan Jihad - Afghanistan - YouTube

Afghan Jihad - Afghanistan - YouTube

6 minutes in is when the discussion of land reforms occurs.

9 minutes 54 seconds in, shows the direct conflict with an Afghan tribesmen regarding the communists forced anti religious ideologies

12.21 SHOWS THE ACTUAL AFGHAN ARMY SWITCHING SIDES, COMMITTING MUTINY, AND KILLING THEIR COMMUNIST LEADERS.... it shows the actual footage of the Afghan Russian supplied armies that mutinied.

13.35 shows that half of the 80,000 conscripts deserted them..

Regarding your request for actual evidence of secularist or communist brutality and killing, sure here is a great one:

By Christopher M. Andrew, Vasili Mitrokhin

http://books.google.com/books?id=4eS...page&q&f=false

PAGE 409

"Najibullah sometimes executed prisoners himself. His preferred method, according to survivors of his prisons, was to beat his victims to the ground, and then kick them to death."

Also lets take a more simple set of examples:

Why are you right and why is Sharbat Gul and her brother wrong??? After all they are from amongst the rural masses??? She satisfies your criteria and LIVES there and SUFFERS there.

Is she also a westerner??? Let us see what she says.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...irl/index-text

"Had she ever felt safe?
"No. But life under the Taliban was better. At least there was peace and order." "

Or how she lives as a RURAL Pashtoon woman from Afghanistan when interacting with Steve McCurry, an outsider of the culture male, or any male for that matter:

""The reunion between the woman with green eyes and the photographer was quiet. On the subject of married women, cultural tradition is strict. She must not look—and certainly must not smile—at a man who is not her husband."

Oh and then her brother, the other ISI agent (sarcasm) goes on to say:

"We left Afghanistan because of the fighting," said her brother, Kashar Khan, filling in the narrative of her life. He is a straight line of a man with a raptor face and piercing eyes. "The Russians were everywhere. They were killing people. We had no choice."

"The Russian invasion destroyed our lives," her brother said.


ALL ECHOING KAWUN KAKAR, AFGHAN HISTORIAN'S COMMENTARY IN HIS HISTORY OF THE TALIBAN:

"In reality, the traditional way of life in villages has changed little by Taliban's rule. The situation of Afghans in the countryside controlled by the Taliban has improved because of increased peace and security, giving them the opportunity to rebuild after two decades of war."

http://www.institute-for-afghan-stud...ntro_kakar.htm

So this is what Sharbat Gul and her Brother proclaim, yet the Pakistani communist version of events (now morphed mysteriously into secular nationalist capitalist somehow) says:

1) No, Brzenzski Khan kaka brought in the civilized amazingly well behaved Russians who did no wrong and it was all the evil Brzenski Shaytaan... none of it was Russian interventionalism and massacre
2) Farhat T Andersen is representative of the true Pashtun ideals of FATA and that the mod Pashtoon rural girl would flirt and tap dance for Steve McCurry and Mr. Andersen.

I think Ill take my chances with listening to the will of the people, the will of the masses, and give them the dignity of what they want and let them progress at their own pace. I think Ill take Sharbat Gula and her brother's word for it as opposed to the reality detached one.

But of course, I am sure somehow a creative link between the ISI and the National Geographic will be uncovered

And why is it that your own colleague AFG21's words show that you are being dishonest. He himself, in his own words admitted the way the rural masses are. Why is that you both admit that you think the rural Afghans are stupid, backwards, and deserve a boot on their throat??? Because you think you are better than them??? You think you have the right to force your WILL On them? You think that is ethical? :

From AFG21 previously:

"I think that all Afghans are against this acupation, they only difrence is that some want a difrent resistantce than the taliban, we have to look at our history and see, when the russian where in Afghanistan peopel didn't care who the person against the russian were, if they were against them they were given money and weapons, but most peopel didn't realise that those peopel the so called "mujhahidin" wanted only power and money, becuase the same "mujhahidin" who were against the Kafir USSR are now sitting and letting 100 difrent Kafir nation in to Afghanistan. And now you peopel say it doesn't matter what the taliban are doing or what they have done in the past, they are against the accupiers so they are good. But if the Americans leave and the Taliban take power a lot of peopel are afraid that they would bring the same rule like they once did in the 90's. And some say the rural peopel are in favor, afcours they are in favor of taliban they don't know any better, they have the same mentality, like women is not allowed to go to work or to school. We peopel who have traveld to the WEst and have seen the world must realise that Taliban is not the solution. I am only pro taliban if they respect human rights and not do the same mistakes like in the past. But there is no gaurantee that they wouldn't do it.

So if some Afghans don't like taliban that doesn't mean that they love Americans and NATO, it is just the way taliban is fighting and what they did in the past. Because of that peopel have suspicion."

What annoyed Obama about Mullah Omar

"The bigest problem whith Afghanistan is. Is that each time when Afghanistan gets a chance to develope or to change, our neighbours manipulate this rural peopel and set them against our goverment. They manipulate them to think that how they leave now is the only good way, not that they say to them be extrime they are extrime, the mindset of our rural peopel didn't change since 1929. I know what I have said in that other post. I have leaved in Khost in a village, I know how rural peopel are. Like when Amanullah Khan wanted to devolope Afghanistan. England manipulated them to raise against him, to say that he is a kafir and wants to destroy Islam. But we all know that is noncense becuase his Laws were all based on Sharia, only some were not really Islamic. Becuase of his deprature Afghanistan was frozen in time. Only the cities changed and also the cities where majority were Farsiwan, they had some contact whithe the modern world. In the 70s the qhalk and parchamies were not the most honest or the most good peopel on this planet, but they were the reaction to this 50 years of sleeping. They wanted Afghanistan to wake up and to devolope, But again the rural mass didn;t want that. The rural mass was not stronger than the goverment now, the goverment could have controled them but our neighbours saw that if Afghanistan become strong this will be not so good for there countries. Pakistan didn´t want to give the pashtun lands to Afghanistan and Iran didn´t want to have a secular Commie like country as aneighbour. So they gave wapons and money to them. This kind of thing is now whith Taliban they where traind in Pakistan recived money from the US/Arabs/Pakis to fight and weaken us. I know that our chance to have a secular goverment is gone. But even if there will come an Islamic based goverment that can alowe the peopel to devolope and after time to change and become a better country, I would accept that. The problems where actually not completly whith the rurals. Most of the modern Afghan leaders wanted to change to fast, and you are right about that we have to change our country in our own way, but taliban don't want any change.
I am just sick and tired of Taliban and there stupidity, there waghshie way of live, I want culture, education, devolopment. I want that when peopel think of Afghanistan they would think about a beautiful country whith smart and educated peopel in stead of bearded apes who thinks that if you watch tv,listen to music, alowe women in public space whitout a burqa, waire jins or other western clothes, its a schame and haram. And do you know way the rural peopel and taliban have so much in comon, they are both besiwad and folow more old cultural habits than Islam. And culture must change. Pashtunwali is not writen in stone, Pashtunwali is not din, like any onter culture if its not gona evolve and change whith time it will be destoyd and forgoten.

And the last thing I will tell you is that your own logic works against you.

So you are telling Unknown prince and others: You dont live there so you cannot talk. You live in America.

What a load of horse sh-it.

Then can Mullah Omar say to Hamid Karzai?

Che Kalaa munzh medaa medaa shwoo pa jang key, aw har tharaaft na Russyaan munzh bandaa ra khlaas woo, baraa na, landaay na, makhtha, shaa thaa; che gareebanaan topakey rowneewaa aw zindagee jawaree aukrao khodaay aw millet da paraa, tha kam zay weh? Sha suit deh wachawl ao boot deh psha ko, Islamabad Chai khanaay keh shaa araam deh karaadeh.

So what legitimazes Qayoum the Clown Karzai and Taj Wardak Abbassina? Why are they legitimized to speak on Afghanistan's behalf?

What struggle did they see in their suburban Virginia home that Zaeef and Omar did not see??

See that same criticism comes right back to you. The villager can say, hey Abbasina you may have lived here 20 years 30 years 40 years, but you how many computers do we have in our mud huts and our homes?

Basically, the people you demand we support, from Karzai to Zahir Shah to Ghani all did worse than working their a-ss off to make it in America. They lived off the welfare of other nations and now want to come back after FAILING in the west.

So it is you that has to deal with the West, not us.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

barakzai is that all ? you lived with them as an american , you prayed with them as an guest , but thats it . have you been in 92 , 96 , 98 or 2000 there ? no ! , have you seen your neighbours lying in their own blood on the street ? have you seen how your home was robbed ? how all which you knew was destroyed ? no .

did actually met any taliban ? or a communist or one of the goats which are sitting today there ? no .

you know you call your self an educated man , but again you are worse than the most illiterate in the last corner . with your answers .

how many of your family died actually in this war ? how much of your property of your life was destroyed .

do you know what the taliban did in shamal ? and you know why they are so hated and why this was planned by certain people ? no !

you keep being a internet armchair mujahedin .

you tell me about rural people , and the benefits of the taliban , i will tell you your taliban will make peace with the americans ,and the americans will stay , and you know what ? instead of americans telling them what to do and not to do , again some pakis will do so .

you are so naive like an inocent child , you belive every thing what you are told . but do as you wish ,aslong as you are an good doctor ,who cares .

Ah but we did my friend. You are too quick to assume things. We have suffered on both sides of the durand line. My father's sister and her husband were killed in the Russian War. My grand uncle lost all of his sons. My wife's family has lost an innocent bystander killed by the Pakistani army in FATA who was an NGO affiliate. And I am not alone in this here. There are many here on this very forum who lost close family members in both conflicts.

What my education does for me is it allows me to see the past as it was, the present as it is, and to forcast the future as it might be should God will it to be so, if the same mistakes are made again. That is the power of education.

As noted, your main reflex has been to resort to: Well you live in America therefore you cannot comment and do not know what is going on.

I told you that such logic is actually harmful to your own.. i.e. it comes back to bite you.

As noted previously, Zahir Shah, Karzai Clown, Wardag Taj, Ashraf Ghani, Pir Gilaini, the whole host of them were living in mudbathes in Italy and enjoying Islamabad Chay Khanaay. Mojadidi was enjoying as much ISI patronage and loving as the next guy, and Karzai was his heel licker. Yet we are to believe that Mullah Omar is the one ISI stooge just because you say so?

So as I noted, Mullah Omar lost an eye for his country. What did Karzai lose? Did he lose even a finger nail? Supposedly according to local lore Najib had him tortured in Kandahar. Yet how did Karzai escape Najib and everyone else die?

So as I said, the logic of who lives where matters NOT AT ALL. In fact, if it matters then you must justify why Pir Gilaini, Karzai, and Taj Wardag are insiders and those sons of the soil who bled for the soil are outsiders? You know the ones that never left?

Also, as I said, Sharabat Gula the famous green eyed girl of Afghanistan, a rural Afghan has said it herself here... I want you to deal with her commentary:

Is she also a westerner??? Let us see what she says.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...irl/index-text

"Had she ever felt safe?
"No. But life under the Taliban was better. At least there was peace and order." "

Or how she lives as a RURAL Pashtoon woman from Afghanistan when interacting with Steve McCurry, an outsider of the culture male, or any male for that matter:

""The reunion between the woman with green eyes and the photographer was quiet. On the subject of married women, cultural tradition is strict. She must not look—and certainly must not smile—at a man who is not her husband."

Oh and then her brother, the other ISI agent (sarcasm) goes on to say:

"We left Afghanistan because of the fighting," said her brother, Kashar Khan, filling in the narrative of her life. He is a straight line of a man with a raptor face and piercing eyes. "The Russians were everywhere. They were killing people. We had no choice."

"The Russian invasion destroyed our lives," her brother said.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Look Abbass since you are so into the West and since Soldat is enamored with the West, let me show you, to lighten the mood, what the world and what Afghans think of Karzai and the average insurgent. Americans love to think about movies and relate to them... and Soldat is from England so maybe he will enjoy it:

So here is how Afghans see Karzai (Robert Bruce) and the insurgency (William Wallace):

Just Lead - YouTube

[abassinafghan]

you are a doctor and you still answer me like a sadamat de shkapar bazar de derwase ,

i ask you a really simple question did the taliban failed , as a goverment in the past ?

yes or no ?

why do you assume that if you are not pro taliban , you must be pro kharazai who is actually a nobody , or pro american ?


if you want to denie that mullah homar worked openly with the pakis , and they had no influence at all on him ,than you are the one who fails to see the present .
ask anybody in kabul or khandahar how many isi and napaki buddies where there and played great general ? i guess you are so good in denial that you will even denie that a paki general who is recorded and is happy that the taliban will win and afghanistan will be once again their 5fth province ?

just because people and, i say people as i said before , line with the taliban , because they took a smart move by attacking the stupid americans , which bomb a whole village because a landarar shoots from some kuza and get away , doesnt make you beloved mullahian no heroes same happend also in 80s .

the wrong people do the right things , sometimes

but let us go further , what will happen if the americans go out , which they will not do , because they paid to much and too much is on the stake . ?

what will your beloved mullah omar did for his country lost an eye ? i can show you hundreds of men who lost more than just an eye for their country , and they dont give **** about him or the taliban .

you know all the kids who scream communists and this and that , you know where have been all this communists , when rockets flew over my head 93 ? i mean i was not a communist nor was my familie communists , or any of the people in our neighbour hood ,. and the majority of the people in kabul in this time were no communists .

what happend with the saviours of islam against the evil communists who wanted to impose something on us . ? did they have a quick change of heart or got their cash payment less which they recieved by iranians americans pakis and the rest ?
i mean a man who was 40 years or 30 years a muselman , how can he fell so fast for kufr ? because the majority of those people are today in line with the americans .

and if you are so educated ,most capable people fail because they think to high of their selfes , can you explain me how zia ul haq said that kabul must burn and it did in 90s ?

why did the taliban those atrocities in the north ? and for what reason i know a driver who worked for them and who saw it with his own eyes that some commanders even orderd it to them , to do so , and if some talibs denied they were punished .

tell me why some people like mullah rabbani was killed , or mullah bradar was handed out to the americans , while you one eyed super man still manages to hide in pakistan ? which reason is behind it ?

you know the sowjets were not there because they wanted us to convert to good communists , so are the americans not here to fight some terrorists which they created by theirself , or to establish democracy what so ever . and you should know that .

you know barakzai you speak very easy , but did you actually visited the pahantoon in cabul ? when you where there ? did you talked with the lecturers or with the doctors , i am sure not all of them are tajiks or hazaras ? or about the education of our youth .

islam is our deen and most people learned munz and the very basics at home , but can be a nation exist just out of mullahs ? or talibs ?

you talk steady about rural people ? do you know how many of the smarter ones which a good education for their children ?or a better life ? you know there maybe some one like you who fall for the wahabi rhetoric of some talibjans , who again like fasho tajiks and hazars underline how unimportant the durrand line is , as how unimportant the claim of your soil is , because its nationalism .

or who say how unimportant this all is and how unnessesary school for children is , great what happen if your wife get sick ? to find female doctors where children are not sent to school is difficult . i know some woman who were doctors and also worked in this time , but just for the sake of some good and reasonable local commanders who saw what was happening ,like mullah rabbani who was also killed ,.

ask you do you knew the situation of afghans in the occupied pashtunistan ? how they were treated by those pakis , meanwhile the same daalkhors played commandan in khandahar in kabul ?

and what will happen if your beloved taliban get in power again ? what does they will do ? they will do as the americans wants them to do and the daal khors will celebrate like in the 90s again .


so spare me with your justifications , continue your sadamat talk and explain the peoples will and how they are better to continue to live in agony and poverty with their paki muslim brothers and how independent the taliban are , who openly proclaim that the pakistani state should not considerd an enemie , even they fulled this war for an entire decade and profited from it by 40 billion dollar cash and additional 20 billions in form of credits given by iwf , germany and other nations .

[unknownprince]

^ Abassi, as it has been requested, save that^ for some other time, and refrain from avoiding what has been requested of you. You have made claims, and continue to make claims which you do no back aside from the "Do you know what happened here and there?". Confirmed Facts by multiple sources show that the Mullahs were forced to respond to the mess made by infighting between the Mujaihideen who themselves were a reaction to the Soviet war and occupation which was brought by the Militant Communist assassination of Daud Khan and the Communist revolution. Hence, the Militant Communists aka false nationalists are to blame.

Its not news that Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and UAE recognized the Taliban. Its old news.


now address the points as previously requested. Thanks.

[abassinafghan]

and spare with the american war propaganda , the americans admitted that they PROVOKED the invasion of the sowjets to give them their vietnam .

so tell your fairy tales others by showing cia agents which are paids to tell bad horror stories , yes the sowjets killed alot of people , but the didnt do it because they were muselman , but because some parchami mordagau tajik or hazara or other minority , told them that there the "basmatchi " /"dushman " is . besides it also showed of that your beloved massoud , for which you have high respect worked in the 80s in secret with the russians and then in the 90s openly .

[unknownprince]

^Ok Abbassi, you are officially the newest member of the anti-reality / flat earth society

Soldat, Toramana, and LZ are the proud and few fellow members.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

you are a doctor and you still answer me like a sadamat de shkapar bazar de derwase ,

i ask you a really simple question did the taliban failed , as a goverment in the past ?

yes or no ?

why do you assume that if you are not pro taliban , you must be pro kharazai who is actually a nobody , or pro american ?


if you want to denie that mullah homar worked openly with the pakis , and they had no influence at all on him ,than you are the one who fails to see the present .
ask anybody in kabul or khandahar how many isi and napaki buddies where there and played great general ? i guess you are so good in denial that you will even denie that a paki general who is recorded and is happy that the taliban will win and afghanistan will be once again their 5fth province ?

just because people and, i say people as i said before , line with the taliban , because they took a smart move by attacking the stupid americans , which bomb a whole village because a landarar shoots from some kuza and get away , doesnt make you beloved mullahian no heroes same happend also in 80s .

the wrong people do the right things , sometimes

but let us go further , what will happen if the americans go out , which they will not do , because they paid to much and too much is on the stake . ?

what will your beloved mullah omar did for his country lost an eye ? i can show you hundreds of men who lost more than just an eye for their country , and they dont give **** about him or the taliban .

you know all the kids who scream communists and this and that , you know where have been all this communists , when rockets flew over my head 93 ? i mean i was not a communist nor was my familie communists , or any of the people in our neighbour hood ,. and the majority of the people in kabul in this time were no communists .

what happend with the saviours of islam against the evil communists who wanted to impose something on us . ? did they have a quick change of heart or got their cash payment less which they recieved by iranians americans pakis and the rest ?
i mean a man who was 40 years or 30 years a muselman , how can he fell so fast for kufr ? because the majority of those people are today in line with the americans .

and if you are so educated ,most capable people fail because they think to high of their selfes , can you explain me how zia ul haq said that kabul must burn and it did in 90s ?

why did the taliban those atrocities in the north ? and for what reason i know a driver who worked for them and who saw it with his own eyes that some commanders even orderd it to them , to do so , and if some talibs denied they were punished .

tell me why some people like mullah rabbani was killed , or mullah bradar was handed out to the americans , while you one eyed super man still manages to hide in pakistan ? which reason is behind it ?

you know the sowjets were not there because they wanted us to convert to good communists , so are the americans not here to fight some terrorists which they created by theirself , or to establish democracy what so ever . and you should know that .

you know barakzai you speak very easy , but did you actually visited the pahantoon in cabul ? when you where there ? did you talked with the lecturers or with the doctors , i am sure not all of them are tajiks or hazaras ? or about the education of our youth .

islam is our deen and most people learned munz and the very basics at home , but can be a nation exist just out of mullahs ? or talibs ?

you talk steady about rural people ? do you know how many of the smarter ones which a good education for their children ?or a better life ? you know there maybe some one like you who fall for the wahabi rhetoric of some talibjans , who again like fasho tajiks and hazars underline how unimportant the durrand line is , as how unimportant the claim of your soil is , because its nationalism .

or who say how unimportant this all is and how unnessesary school for children is , great what happen if your wife get sick ? to find female doctors where children are not sent to school is difficult . i know some woman who were doctors and also worked in this time , but just for the sake of some good and reasonable local commanders who saw what was happening ,like mullah rabbani who was also killed ,.

ask you do you knew the situation of afghans in the occupied pashtunistan ? how they were treated by those pakis , meanwhile the same daalkhors played commandan in khandahar in kabul ?

and what will happen if your beloved taliban get in power again ? what does they will do ? they will do as the americans wants them to do and the daal khors will celebrate like in the 90s again .


so spare me with your justifications , continue your sadamat talk and explain the peoples will and how they are better to continue to live in agony and poverty with their paki muslim brothers and how independent the taliban are , who openly proclaim that the pakistani state should not considerd an enemie , even they fulled this war for an entire decade and profited from it by 40 billion dollar cash and additional 20 billions in form of credits given by iwf , germany and other nations .

Take it easy Abbass,

Im not disagreeing with some of what you say. Look here is the deal Abbass, not everything under the sun and the moon is ISI controlled. Afghans historically will take money and arms from people, whether they be Russians, Americans, Pakistanis, Iranians, and Soviets and they still do what they want to do. Its something the Americans have been learning the hard way. They will give arms and support to one group or local person and that person will not just do only what America wants him to do, he will do what he wants to do and what America wants him to do if that suits his interests, whether they be dumb or good.

In this same way, failed Afghan emigres, especially the ones that I knew in the West, loved to blame Pakistan for all their ills. They forget the biggest lesson/question in life: People may kick you when you are down... but how did they down in you in the first place? Self reflect, did you have anything to do with that?

You dont get the Taliban and you dont understand what they are and what the rural people are you because you are not from amongst them. You dont understand that all around the world, whether in America or Latin America or Africa or Afghanistan, human behavior is very similar. Many other nations besides Afghanistan have the urban rural divide

In general Abbass, and I will show you this inshallah, personally, if you visit me in the US. I will be your host and show you this phenomena first hand.

In each society Abbas, whether it is America society, Pakistani society, or Afghan society there are generally societal divisions:

Ruling Elite
Urban Elite (often has some links to the rural country side)
Rural masses
This group is comprised of:
Local village leaders/khans/landholders/prominent people
Government affiliated local leaders
and Local Clergy

Rural and Urban values may overlap in certain regard, but often do not. The urban areas have universities near them and folks generally discuss radical ideas in their youth and may believe in a different way of life. Both groups may want good for their families but also have slightly different definitions of what good means and how to get to that good.

In both societies, American and Afghan Abbass there is a balance in place when no outsider intervention is occuring:

The Elite do their thing and govern (maybe well maybe stupidly)
The urban people do their own business and the rural people do their own business whether some exchange occuring between these groups.

Now, let me run a simulation for you and show you that the slave mentality of blaming the ISI for everything and the utter ruinous lack of self reflection on the part of the Afghan urban elites is actually where the problem was and where it persists.

So now let us take Texas:

We have the Bushes, the Perrys (Khans), we have some connection to the central government, and we have the rural Texan conservative masses. They are not all priests or minsters and many of them commit, what their Christian religion would call sins. And generally, they dont dwell on these things too much. This is in their time of peace. They do however have certain values, for better or worse that conflict with other regions of the country. The local minister and cleric does his own business and the people go to his church on Sunday. The rest of the days of the week his flock is out doing haraamthope and he may not like it, but he doesnt really have the power to do anything about it.

Pashtun society is not all that different. In the village the local Cleric cannot, in times of peace, just make threats on the kalaay masharaan. Usually the mullah has his masjid, the kids go there to learn some quran, he leads the prayers. He has his azaan assistant. They are very protective of their territory. If some real scholar from the outsider tries to correct them, they get irritated. They however, know their place.

OK so now back to America.

If China were to invade tomorrow... had Communist Russia invaded... had Japan invaded.. what would happen in this scenario Abbass?

Well, the Khans (Bush, Rick Perry) would run abroad to France, Canada, London etc.

And who is left to fight?

Well the rural people who own many many guns. Maybe the national gaurd will be involved. But remember they also derive from the local populace. What will they rally around? They will rally around their patriotism and, if their leadership is gone, around their ministers and other folks. The proof of this? The rallying cry the Americans had against communism was: "The Godless Communists" In fact they added the words "under god" to their pledge of allegiance in the era of the Red Menace.

In this same way then, the local American Taliban would then come out to play. It would not be their equivalent of FazlurRahman (like a Jerry Falwell)... but some of the local traditional leaders and ministers. These ministers are not PhD theologians who understand the deep details of Christianity and world markets. But they do cherish their independence and do not like outsiders.

This same phenomena is what occured in Afghanistan. The masjidoona is where the people go 5 times a day... if they are strict, drunkards, or whatever, they still have the mosque as a vantage point. Lavanaay Zalmaay himself here said that he knows how to blend in at the mosque when he visits is Pashtunkhwa.... its because the masjid is one of , but not the only, societal organizing center point.

When the Russians were forced out and when Sherzai was fighting over one side of the city and the other commanders were fighting over the other sides of the city, who did the people turn to? Now their tribal leaders were involved and embroiled in these conflicts. So that organization vantage point was gone.

So they turned to Mullah Pasanai and some of the folks who had been involved in local affairs for 50+ years!

Sadaat's own daughter told me how families in her area had to watch out for Sayyaf on the one side and one of the other commanders on the other side fighting over plots of land.

This breakdown in societal structure created a security vacuum. The local cleric accumulated more power in this setting.

And as I said Abbass the blame lies not with the ISI, it lies with Afghan leadership for not LEADING. People follow leadership and will continue to follow it if it LEADS. Instead, the urban elite and others were not doing what the nation had charged them to do.

The proof of this? Abdul Ahad Karzai himself would go meet with the Taliban. He knew them. Haji Latif knew them. They were the sons of the soil, but they were clerical affiliates. He thought that it was going to be easy street and that the Taliban and the local rural people would simply do all the hard fighting and that when they were done doing the hard work, while his big 7 sons sat on the sidelines doing NOTHING, Zahir Shah and the other elites would just say: "Thanks guys... now go back to the masjid... kudos for all the hard work... you get nothing even though you did EVERYTHING."

In regard to what the Taliban did to the country in 10 years, tell me, what has Karzai done in 10 years? Each of the supposed developments ends up having a flaw. Girls going to school are touted as an accomplishment and then you investigate and find out that its only a half truth. Infrastructure development is touted and then you find it out it breaks down when given over to these dog washers. Mineral wealth is touted and you see Shahrani's son making off with the wealth. The ANA is touted and its flaws are deadly ones, especially to Pashtuns. And Karzai has the support of all the nations of the world and all their money.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

and spare with the american war propaganda , the americans admitted that they PROVOKED the invasion of the sowjets to give them their vietnam .

so tell your fairy tales others by showing cia agents which are paids to tell bad horror stories , yes the sowjets killed alot of people , but the didnt do it because they were muselman , but because some parchami mordagau tajik or hazara or other minority , told them that there the "basmatchi " /"dushman " is . besides it also showed of that your beloved massoud , for which you have high respect worked in the 80s in secret with the russians and then in the 90s openly .

What? Who said I respected Mossoud. I said that I wanted to learn more about him. I grew up hating the man. I heard Azzam vetted him to lead the muj leadership. All I wanted to understand was what Azzam saw him in versus the support of Pashtun leaders. Thats why I asked Admin and others for book recs, to learn more about Mossoud.

And once again, they did provoke the Soviet invasion, but that doesnt justify the Afghan elites thinking they were smart enough to play two super powers off against each other. They thought that by letting the Soviets come in to build hospitals and schools and beef up their army that all this was free aid without strings attached. This dependency factor and idiocy played no small role Abbass.

And America experienced this same defeat in Vietnam as you note. All over the map the two super powers played this game back and forth, using the world as their chess board.

This is exactly what I agree with. They did the same in Iran with Mossadegh. They also did the same in the Arab world with Nasser and some of the other governments.

So just as you recognize that the Soviets and the Americans were playing the game, you do yourself a disservice by not recognizing that this game was not limited to Afghanistan, but was a worldwide conflageration. This game led the Americans to reserve Saudi as their resource asset and to ensure that a hegemonical monarchy stayed in place there. This would eventually extend into the modern era with the bases in the peninsula.

So if you recognize this, why is is that you compartmentalize this aspect of history. Why not bring the blame on both these peoples, the Russians and Americans for playing games all over the Muslim and developing world. It was not just limited to the Muslim world. This also occured in Latin America. Che Geuvara and his communism was a response to the atrocities the Americans did there as well.

In this same way, you blame the Arabs and Osama Bin Ladin. But each and every point that Osama bin Ladin made against them was a legitimate point as per their own admission. So then your response will be: well why did he not fight them in Saudi. He did. There is a long list of events in Saudi that the media does not cover:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Saudi_Arabia

In fact these Arabs were imprisoned in their home countries when they attempted to rise up and fight there.

So once again, why not raise this point with the US? Why should Mr. Karzai not stand up for all human rights and say: Hey, you brought these people to our land with your actions in their countries. Not a single one of these people would care a lick or a wit to stay in broke down Afghanistan if you were not building bases or supporting idiot Mobarak and idiot Qaddafi in their home countries. And for what gain? So oil is less than 100 dollars a barrell? Now because of all their games, it has gone up in cost and they defeated their own purpose!

[al-arab]

What? Who said I respected Mossoud. I said that I wanted to learn more about him. I grew up hating the man. I heard Azzam vetted him to lead the muj leadership. All I wanted to understand was what Azzam saw him in versus the support of Pashtun leaders. Thats why I asked Admin and others for book recs, to learn more about Mossoud.

And once again, they did provoke the Soviet invasion, but that doesnt justify the Afghan elites thinking they were smart enough to play two super powers off against each other. They thought that by letting the Soviets come in to build hospitals and schools and beef up their army that all this was free aid without strings attached. This dependency factor and idiocy played no small role Abbass.

And America experienced this same defeat in Vietnam as you note. All over the map the two super powers played this game back and forth, using the world as their chess board.

This is exactly what I agree with. They did the same in Iran with Mossadegh. They also did the same in the Arab world with Nasser and some of the other governments.

So just as you recognize that the Soviets and the Americans were playing the game, you do yourself a disservice by not recognizing that this game was not limited to Afghanistan, but was a worldwide conflageration. This game led the Americans to reserve Saudi as their resource asset and to ensure that a hegemonical monarchy stayed in place there. This would eventually extend into the modern era with the bases in the peninsula.

So if you recognize this, why is is that you compartmentalize this aspect of history. Why not bring the blame on both these peoples, the Russians and Americans for playing games all over the Muslim and developing world. It was not just limited to the Muslim world. This also occured in Latin America. Che Geuvara and his communism was a response to the atrocities the Americans did there as well.

In this same way, you blame the Arabs and Osama Bin Ladin. But each and every point that Osama bin Ladin made against them was a legitimate point as per their own admission. So then your response will be: well why did he not fight them in Saudi. He did. There is a long list of events in Saudi that the media does not cover:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Saudi_Arabia

In fact these Arabs were imprisoned in their home countries when they attempted to rise up and fight there.

So once again, why not raise this point with the US? Why should Mr. Karzai not stand up for all human rights and say: Hey, you brought these people to our land with your actions in their countries. Not a single one of these people would care a lick or a wit to stay in broke down Afghanistan if you were not building bases or supporting idiot Mobarak and idiot Qaddafi in their home countries. And for what gain? So oil is less than 100 dollars a barrell? Now because of all their games, it has gone up in cost and they defeated their own purpose!

Execellent post brother.

[abassinafghan]

You dont get the Taliban and you dont understand what they are and what the rural people are you because you are not from amongst them

well how good that we have an AMERICAN boy , from the shar who knows and understand them so well by still miss to the greater political picture ,and thinks american are there to change his religion .
how many taliban did you acutally met ? and please dont confuse an aka de kili from the isi deobandi muslim muslim wala .

2. spare me again with your pseudo social attempt to explain me the afghan society

3. do as you wish in my eyes you are blind and you hope to wishthink , and you still belive that the people fight because the taliboon are their brothers or any religious motivated aspect , but just for the sole fact that they dragged into it , if some one decides just to feed his familiy he will do so , especially after this long time of war , however if the times come he have to take badal . but not for the sake of your one eyed isi agent .

4. you are defending osama and the wannabe general arabs , by giving me a wikipedia link and telling me they are resistance and this and that ??? so they are so much smarter to play the game with the americans ,lol and legitimate ?

did you ever considerd that the average saudi is quiet confortable to live his life as it is ? but thats no reason to let you self get into trouble for the sake of others , especially not if those are maybe still on cia payrolls and used agents provocateurs or they just lose their mind. i guess you also belive 911 was made just by osama bin ladin ? funny this donkey besides filling his own pocket , never declared jihad against underdevelopment , lack of education , economical dependence . maybe this is the root of all evil , but its easier to destroy and take up a rifle pull the trigger or push the botton , than build somehting up . he was an cia asset who is just used by their american masters to remove regims in the name of islam , other legitimise their claims with nationalism , socialism , and he did so with religion .

5. you are in my eyes just ignorant and i can understand where you coming from . i just hope that you are a better doctor ,than you try to be a wannabe analyst , and give me one promise , keeping a doctor and a good doctor and not a full time afghanistan expert .


regarding massoud , he and hekmatyar together with gulbudin were recruited by the isi long before the soviets invaded , and used to topple daud khan , by claiming he was a "secualrist" ( what ever this should mean ) .thats the reason why pakis loved him , because he was anti pashtun ,and thats the reason why the pakis will support in an eye blink again them if it turns out the taliban get a peace deal on their own with the americans or let alone get in business with the indians .

[BarakzaiAbdali]

well how good that we have an AMERICAN boy , from the shar who knows and understand them so well by still miss to the greater political picture ,and thinks american are there to change his religion .
how many taliban did you acutally met ? and please dont confuse an aka de kili from the isi deobandi muslim muslim wala .

2. spare me again with your pseudo social attempt to explain me the afghan society

3. do as you wish in my eyes you are blind and you hope to wishthink , and you still belive that the people fight because the taliboon are their brothers or any religious motivated aspect , but just for the sole fact that they dragged into it , if some one decides just to feed his familiy he will do so , especially after this long time of war , however if the times come he have to take badal . but not for the sake of your one eyed isi agent .

4. you are defending osama and the wannabe general arabs , by giving me a wikipedia link and telling me they are resistance and this and that ??? so they are so much smarter to play the game with the americans ,lol and legitimate ?

did you ever considerd that the average saudi is quiet confortable to live his life as it is ? but thats no reason to let you self get into trouble for the sake of others , especially not if those are maybe still on cia payrolls and used agents provocateurs or they just lose their mind. i guess you also belive 911 was made just by osama bin ladin ? funny this donkey besides filling his own pocket , never declared jihad against underdevelopment , lack of education , economical dependence . maybe this is the root of all evil , but its easier to destroy and take up a rifle pull the trigger or push the botton , than build somehting up . he was an cia asset who is just used by their american masters to remove regims in the name of islam , other legitimise their claims with nationalism , socialism , and he did so with religion .

5. you are in my eyes just ignorant and i can understand where you coming from . i just hope that you are a better doctor ,than you try to be a wannabe analyst , and give me one promise , keeping a doctor and a good doctor and not a full time afghanistan expert .


regarding massoud , he and hekmatyar together with gulbudin were recruited by the isi long before the soviets invaded , and used to topple daud khan , by claiming he was a "secualrist" ( what ever this should mean ) .thats the reason why pakis loved him , because he was anti pashtun ,and thats the reason why the pakis will support in an eye blink again them if it turns out the taliban get a peace deal on their own with the americans or let alone get in business with the indians .

Abbass

Thank you for commentary.

Now unfortunately on both sides of the border there are folks that call themselves freedom fighters and talibs everywhere in every nook and crany. In Chaman two groups of these people were killing eachother's families.

As i said, Mullah Pasanai was famous in Kandahar and was seen as a reliable person by everyone from Sherzai to Karzai to Omar to whomever. He was however a cleric. How was he deobandi? He has lived died and trained in Kandahar.

In regard to the Americans changing one's religion, that in and of itself is substantiated by repeated statements from Mr. Petreus himself in regard to the fact that the US will not permit a sharia state to exist anywhere. Saudi cannot be grouped into this category because we are talking about non hegemonical non US state sponsered folks.

And you are right. There are many people who are taking badal and have no links with the core Taliban shura. I dont know what terminology to use for such folks as the West has applied the blanket term Taliban or insurgent and it has stuck.

I am not defending or endorsing Mr. Bin Ladin. As I have stated, whether is it is the believing Mr. Bin Ladin or the social communist Dr. Geuvara, or even if its Amrullah Saleh, people fight and are involved in controversies for reasons.

For instance, why did Dr. Geuvara take up arms against the American puppet regimes of Latin America? Why was he willing to die fighting them in Bolivia?

I have no affinity for Dr. Geuvara's beliefs. Nor will I be so foolish as to associate his struggles with that of Islam. His beliefs, as his daughter noted subsequent to the Iran conference, stood in diametric opposition to faith based governance.

Both he and Mr. Bin Ladin left behind voluminous words in regard to why they did what they did. As a student of human nature, since half of medicine is that, I choose to understand motives as opposed to superimposing motives onto these people. Mr. Ebert, when reviewing the Motorcycle Diaries referred to Mr. Geuvara as blood thirsty, a murderer, a sociopath etc. However, he failed to understand what created this person he labeled a monster.

When you read their books and their words the common theme really has more to do with politics (state based occupation, utilizing the Muslim world's resources, determining governance in these areas). And their accusations generally are not solely towards America, many European powers are included in their criticism and local leaders that gain from making deals with these powers are also criticized heavily.

I actually do not think that he was on the Central Intelligence pay roll. I have yet to see any substantiated source that provides firm evidence for this fact.

Rather Scheuer, the head of Alec station disputes you:


Last Word: Micheal Scheuer, former Head of CIA's Bin Laden Unit 1/5 - YouTube

4 minutes 58 seconds in.

So your predictable response and the response of others will be: Why trust this CIA agent... of course they will deny him being an affiliate!

Well the problem with this logic, once again, is that it hurts your own argument Abbass. If you show me videos of Brzenzski claiming that he created the Afghan war, why must someone SELECTIVELY believe him, as an American, and not scheuer? Its absurdity after absurdity that you are throwing at me.

Rather, the reason Alec Station was started in the first place was because Central Intelligence approached him to work with him and was rebuffed. Over the ensuing years they encountered evidence that this rather wealthy Saudi was funding activities across the Muslim world, including in Bosnia. They saw this as a substantial threat.

Regarding a war on Islam, thats not my call to make. There may be overlapping goals the US has. For instance, if a sharia law brings into being a subservient government, the US probably would not care. However if sharia law threatens their resources and their access to oil or bases then Im sure they have a problem with it.

The issue here is not whether the war is truly a war on Islam Abbas, its an issue of impressions in the Muslim world. The proof that US actions give evidence to its detractors in regard to this viewpoint? What about a place worse off than Afghanistan... a place where child soldiers are not the exception, but the rule? Somalia.

http://www.nationinstitute.org/featu...ck_in_somalia/

They had no legitimate military or resource target there:

"While there were rumblings early on that the United States intended to hit in Somalia, seasoned US experts on the region spoke out against it. "There's no need to be rushing into Somalia," former US ambassador to Ethiopia David Shinn said. "If you think about military targets, I doubt they exist." Ken Menkhaus, a Somalia scholar at Davidson College and a former political adviser to the United Nations in Somalia, has written several papers on the absence of a radical political Islamic tradition in Somalia. In early 2002 he estimated the number of Somali nationals with "significant links" to Al Qaeda at ten to twelve people, along with a few foreign fighters. Because of a dearth of intelligence — Shinn referred to it as "abysmal" — "snatch and grab"–type tactics were ill advised at the time."

The local governance, which was executing Islamic law and stabilizing Somalia had actually reached out to the US and promised that it would not involve itself in any global struggles.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/...lia_06-08.html

The allegations were made that 3 AQ leaders were hiding there, without proof and the leader of the movement responsed denying such charges, asking for evidence. That same leader is now involved in the US effort to stabilize Somalia.

So they basically invaded Somalia on the pretext of 3 AQ folks being there, but the Bush administration's stated reason was that they feared draconian Taliban law would be inflicted on Somalia. Yet they forget that their warlords of preference had inflicted worse than draconia laws on the people.

So they backed Somalia's arch nemesis, Christian Ethiopia to invade and brutalize Somalia.

So now Abbas, whether we like or not, a portion of the Muslim world views such actions as proof positive that America has issues with Islam as a belief system. Their actions, for better or worse, validate this view.

Regarding building up societies, you are talking about a situation where Colonialization had just ended 30 years ago and never really ended in Afghanistan. Its been one wave after another.

The Arab world was embroiled in much of the same turmoil. Much of it was actually the responsibility of local folks and populaces who were more eager to save themselves and not think about their societies long term.

After all, if a Pakistani or a British Indian at the time was foolish enough to think that the British wanted to turn Peshawar or Karachi into as powerful a place as London, with as much glory and benefits, then man, do I have a used car to sell him! Thats not how the world works.

Its easy for an educated or literate person to see the pattern of what colonialization and comprimise can do to a people. In fact, if one reads the history of the Western hemisphere and its horrors:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h1567.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3184668.stm

One can see why leaders of resistance movements understood that development and comprimise can only come to its full potential once a people were fully free:

http://www.danielnpaul.com/ChiefTecumseh-Shawnee.html

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...377406/Metacom

So rather, I understand that you are ignorant of history and want to benefit in the short term to sell of the long term. Thats fine. That is your call to make and your decision. But I am at a loss to understand how you justify one form of Western interventionalism (communist incursions) and claim that the other forms are not justified or should be permitted for the short term benefit.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

And Abbass, muslims are not excused from this. For instance, many Muslims will ask Hindu Indians: Why are you so upset with Islam? After all, we could have force converted you the way the Americans affected Korea and other nations with Mac Arthur handing out Bibles ... or as the Americans did in the US with worship towns for the American Indians that were almost like forced concentration camps.

But thats a stupid viewpoint. When Ghaznavi rode into India and broke the Shiva statue with his sword (the Shiva statue resembled a fallus and he became enraged that the locals called it a representation of God... others say its because the Hindu clerics hid gold inside this giant fallus statue)... and when the Mughals established their seat of power, that was bound to cause resentment. The blowback the Muslims are feeling now in India is exactly that. Its not rocket science to see that Hindu India has exceptionally ill will towards Islam not necessarily because each and every Hindu knows what the Quran says, what the benefits were for untouchables and others, or whatever. Rather, their ancestors had a system of governance and for better or worse that was their system. Now, that the shoe is on the other foot and they are empowered, no degree of debate can erase those memories. In fact, when the British ripped the gates of Ghaznavis tomb, and took them back to India, this was to feed into the resentment in India against Ghaznavi, historically and make it appear as if the British were returning the Gates of Somnoth and elevating a down trodden people.

Basically my friend, human nature is very predictable in some regard, and occasionally surprising in other regard.