Pakistan given the starkest warning

[Talal]

^ bhai sahab if you can honestly sell the fact that taliban is not the single most powerful stakeholder in Afghanistan AND that it is NOT pashtun dominated i will retract my statement and there will appear a whirlpool that will suck everything into a void

[sanman]

jaan, we both understand Taliban are powerful, but when you call them a stakeholder, I would ask you what they consider themselves to hold a stake in. A real stakeholder would not have stupidly agreed to Osama's deal, where he helped assassinate Masood in exchange for starting a war between Afghanistan and America through 9-11. A real stakeholder would not have recklessly thrown their country into the abyss like that. Real leaders don't just do such stupid things on a whim. Taliban exercise power without responsibility - and this is because they're ultimately led by illiterate morons. These illiterate morons like Omar were handpicked by Pakistan, because they like such dumb people who can be manipulated.

Such illiterate fools find greater connection with the religious/supernatural world than with the real world around them, which they have a poor understanding of. A more wise leadership would have said, "thank you for helping to kill Masood, dear Osama, but I'm afraid we have now changed our minds and we can no longer agree to help you with your plans to bomb the United States. By the way, we will be posting armed guards around your bedroom, so please do not try to send any messages anywhere without our approval, or we may have to hand you over to Pakistan. Thank you for your cooperation, dear brother - enjoy your stay."

[Talal]

jaan, we both understand Taliban are powerful, but when you call them a stakeholder, I would ask you what they consider themselves to hold a stake in. A real stakeholder would not have stupidly agreed to Osama's deal, where he helped assassinate Masood in exchange for starting a war between Afghanistan and America through 9-11. A real stakeholder would not have recklessly thrown their country into the abyss like that. Real leaders don't just do such stupid things on a whim. Taliban exercise power without responsibility - and this is because they're ultimately led by illiterate morons. These illiterate morons like Omar were handpicked by Pakistan, because they like such dumb people who can be manipulated.

Such illiterate fools find greater connection with the religious/supernatural world than with the real world around them, which they have a poor understanding of. A more wise leadership would have said, "thank you for helping to kill Masood, dear Osama, but I'm afraid we have now changed our minds and we can no longer agree to help you with your plans to bomb the United States. By the way, we will be posting armed guards around your bedroom, so please do not try to send any messages anywhere without our approval, or we may have to hand you over to Pakistan. Thank you for your cooperation, dear brother - enjoy your stay."

i actually totally agree that these guys are butchers, but my point still is that taliban "represent" the pashtun majority..their own ideals may have nothing to do with the betterment of Afghanistan as a nation or for that matter that of the pashtun nationalism either..but they are pashtuns, whatever they do and wish to achieve or have done in the past does nothing to change the fact that taliban represent pashtuns and in-order for pashtuns to take the helm again taliban will have to be reconciled with

[ScimitarXEdge]

News flash, in 2011, we're all just cosmetically Pashtun; being Pashtun does not mean putting your ethnicity first or day dreaming about some mythological "Pashtunistan". Clearly one forgets that the Abdalis joined with Nadir Khan Qoli , the Turkmen Qizilbash from Iran to annihilate the rulership of the Ghilzai Pashtuns in Qandahar and we call the participant of such an event "Baba"

Let's seperate the "ideal" from the "reality"

[sanman]

Taliban represent the ISI, and therefore to say that Taliban represents the Pashtuns is to say that the ISI represent the Pashtuns.

Like I said, how come Taliban's predecessor Hekmatyar is not still in power? As predecessor, then he would have also been the representative of the Pashtuns, according to your logic. So how come he is not still around in power? Because ISI dismissed him and replaced him with Taliban ("new representative" of Pashtuns)

It's very odd and noticeable that the so-called "representative of the Pashtuns" are not being chosen by the Pashtuns themselves, but by Rawalpindi. Very strange form of "representation"

[Talal]

sanman im simply stating the obvious rest is upto your interpretation..i for one believe that the first step in dealing with a problem is taking stock of the ground realities, as painful as they maybe.

[sanman]

So when you say "reconcile with Taliban" - you might as well be saying "reconcile with ISI"

I can assure you that if you bow to ISI's wishes, then Taliban will suddenly coexist with you. This is because Taliban follow ISI. So maybe that is the solution you seek.

But the thing is that ISI needs to keep the Pashtuns in a never-ending state of warfare, so that Pashtuns do not turn against Pakjabis (ISI and Pakjabi-dominated military represent the interests of Pakjabis).

So by rallying under the ISI banner you will have some Pashtun unity, but you will be doomed to march into one war after another, against whomever ISI/PakArmy directs you to fight against. Pashtun identity will also be submerged under Islamic identity, because Pakjabis want to suppress anything that can have differences with them.

I am not sure that even Taliban will agree to formally recognize the Durand Line, just as Pak stooge Hekmatyar refused to. Maybe they might have to be dismissed later on, and replaced with some new "representative".

[Soldat_Amir]

Taliban will bring the Pashtun region backwards due to their toxic blend of Tribalism and Wahabism/Deobandism.

I only see a successful Pashtun region under a purely nationalistic leadership that counts every Pashtun as equals, gives rights to Pashtun females, and is independent from outside powers both economically and development wise.

We need to industrialize our country the same way the west has done in the past. Only a strong productive country will be successful, being led by a man who puts more importance to a piece of cloth around his body added with dreams of himself speaking to angels(Mullah Omar), will only bring us backward and straight into the hands of the ISI.

First things first, we need as a people to abolish this Tribalism and Shia/Sunni sect nonsense. With an Iron fist, we should clamp down on all anti pashtun activities and bring fear to the hearts of these Pak led Clerics who seek to destroy the Pashtun race.

Our army needs to be ideologically driven with a Nationalistic cause, otherwise I see no sense in uniting the people with an alternative as Islam has failed to unite the Pashtun, as we see in the case of kurram, Durrani vs ghilzai and Wazir vs Maseed etc etc etc

[badmash_khel]

Taliban will bring the Pashtun region backwards due to their toxic blend of Tribalism and Wahabism/Deobandism.

I only see a successful Pashtun region under a purely nationalistic leadership that counts every Pashtun as equals, gives rights to Pashtun females, and is independent from outside powers both economically and development wise.

We need to industrialize our country the same way the west has done in the past. Only a strong productive country will be successful, being led by a man who puts more importance to a piece of cloth around his body added with dreams of himself speaking to angels(Mullah Omar), will only bring us backward and straight into the hands of the ISI.

First things first, we need as a people to abolish this Tribalism and Shia/Sunni sect nonsense. With an Iron fist, we should clamp down on all anti pashtun activities and bring fear to the hearts of these Pak led Clerics who seek to destroy the Pashtun race.

Our army needs to be ideologically driven with a Nationalistic cause, otherwise I see no sense in uniting the people with an alternative as Islam has failed to unite the Pashtun, as we see in the case of kurram, Durrani vs ghilzai and Wazir vs Maseed etc etc etc

All we need is sincere people with intrests of pashtuns at heart and those who know pashtuns inside out. The solutions should come from inside. You can not simply ignore that pashtuns are conservative people with a mix of islam thrown in for good measure. Labels like nationlist, mullah, secularists are all useless. As we have seen time and time again, there were some mullahs who will turn into secularists for a few dollars and some communists have turned into staunch capitalists when they used to be communists when soviets were in charge. These kind of people can be bought and sold with money. They don't really have a belief system and their only alligience is to serve their own intrests and get as much power as they can. Empty nationalism is just as useless as empty talk of ummah and global jihad.

I think pashtuns will learn from their mistakes and gradually change. Its not possible to change pashtuns overnight since they are very conservative and have fought anyone imposing their ideology on them, be it extremist mullahs or secularists.

what we need is education so our people can decide for themselves which direction they want to move in and stop being sheeps.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Taliban will bring the Pashtun region backwards due to their toxic blend of Tribalism and Wahabism/Deobandism.

I only see a successful Pashtun region under a purely nationalistic leadership that counts every Pashtun as equals, gives rights to Pashtun females, and is independent from outside powers both economically and development wise.

We need to industrialize our country the same way the west has done in the past. Only a strong productive country will be successful, being led by a man who puts more importance to a piece of cloth around his body added with dreams of himself speaking to angels(Mullah Omar), will only bring us backward and straight into the hands of the ISI.

First things first, we need as a people to abolish this Tribalism and Shia/Sunni sect nonsense. With an Iron fist, we should clamp down on all anti pashtun activities and bring fear to the hearts of these Pak led Clerics who seek to destroy the Pashtun race.

Our army needs to be ideologically driven with a Nationalistic cause, otherwise I see no sense in uniting the people with an alternative as Islam has failed to unite the Pashtun, as we see in the case of kurram, Durrani vs ghilzai and Wazir vs Maseed etc etc etc

Nationalism has also failed to unite Pashtun and we saw during the 70's and 80's and also the numerous tribal rebellions against the state. Another problem with you reforms is that they're not apart of the ideals of Pashtuns themselves, thereby it's contrary to Pashtun society at large.

I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with your view, I am saying the overwhelming majority of Pashtuns would see what you're promoting as "Anti Pashtun"; don't pretend that isn't true.

[abassinafghan]

what we need is alot of cash to buy out the stupid and even more cash to educate the young ones

[sanman]

or maybe try to get as many youth educated abroad as possible, who can then go back and transform the country with modern methods

[Manzareh]

all America needs to do, is remind China of its own Islamist uprising, and there you go, Pakistan will be left with nothing.

and how will america remind china? by doing orchestrated attacks and blaming it on Islam maybe?

[sanman]

and how will america remind china? by doing orchestrated attacks and blaming it on Islam maybe?

China has already directly and publicly blamed Pakistan-based militants for violent attacks in China.

China has directly traced the sources of such attacks. In response, Pakistan has admitted the existence of such activities on Pakistani soil, and has publicly promised China to help go after them.

So when both China and Pakistan are saying these things, there is no need for America to orchestrate anything. Both China and Pakistan themselves acknowledge that this problem exists on Pakistani soil. So there you have it, right from the horses' mouths.

Will you also blame Pakistani flood problems on America? How about their last earthquake?

[Daruish]

So when you say "reconcile with Taliban" - you might as well be saying "reconcile with ISI"

I can assure you that if you bow to ISI's wishes, then Taliban will suddenly coexist with you. This is because Taliban follow ISI. So maybe that is the solution you seek.

But the thing is that ISI needs to keep the Pashtuns in a never-ending state of warfare, so that Pashtuns do not turn against Pakjabis (ISI and Pakjabi-dominated military represent the interests of Pakjabis).

So by rallying under the ISI banner you will have some Pashtun unity, but you will be doomed to march into one war after another, against whomever ISI/PakArmy directs you to fight against. Pashtun identity will also be submerged under Islamic identity, because Pakjabis want to suppress anything that can have differences with them.

I am not sure that even Taliban will agree to formally recognize the Durand Line, just as Pak stooge Hekmatyar refused to. Maybe they might have to be dismissed later on, and replaced with some new "representative".

One of the best analyze I have seen in this forum. Pakis will never allow a moderate and functioning Islam or society emerges in pashtun for that will be end of Pakistan. They will use and abuse pashtuns religious sediment and even nationalism like they have done in 90s against other Afghans. My best friends is from Punjshir and his uncle was a commander under Ahmad Shah Massod, he said when we used to capture Taliban soldiers who were from NWFP, after few months why would look and sound surprise to us saying oh you guys pray and are Muslim…we were told you guys were Kafir/Monafeq and must be killed. Mark my words the war will never end in Afghanistan they will brainwashed and send young Pashtun kids to do Pakistan’s bidding while the Punjabian children themselves send their children to west to get education. Irony is Pashtun are the real victim in this and they don’t even realize it.