Drones, Civilian Deaths and The New York Times

[sanman]

What will convince me is solid evidence, not just some emotional rant that serves no purpose. Nothing of what you are saying is factual, it is just merely your opinion. You were not "everywhere" to have witnessed everything and you talk as if you were there at all times witnessing and writing the whole thing into a book. So you must have gotten this information from somewhere, therefore you should reference your work, otherwise it is no better than another fictional jargon and a conspiracy theory. Atleast conspiracy theorists are not intellectually dishonest and do not steal others ideas.

Get it?

Solid evidence? As solid as your thick skull? You've not told me what meets your standard for solid evidence. Nothing that you say is factual, and it's merely your opinion. Neither have you been everywhere, to witness all of Taliban's conduct to give them a clean chit. You must have gotten your evidence from somewhere, so reference it.

[JAMALUDEEN]

Solid evidence? As solid as your thick skull? You've not told me what meets your standard for solid evidence. Nothing that you say is factual, and it's merely your opinion. Neither have you been everywhere, to witness all of Taliban's conduct to give them a clean chit. You must have gotten your evidence from somewhere, so reference it.

There is no point in personally attacking me, I may have a very thick skull that breaks rocks but I'm still a very objective person. You see, you have a personal grudge against the taliban, which has clouded your judgement and reasoning.

you make accusations after accusations and now you call me a taliban supporter? Where is your evidence for this? I have stated my views before and I have already talked about the standard of solid evidence before, if you can provide it then good, otherwise before you post about any matters just state that it is just your opinion based on speculation.

[sanman]

Sorry, I don't see what standard you have for solid evidence. Frankly, I don't see what standard you have for anything.

What will become quite obvious to you, is that your Pakistan is going down the tubes, and with it will go their Taliban henchmen. Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires, and Pakistan has had one foot in the grave for some time now.

[ScimitarXEdge]

You said both sides use propaganda and you said both sides are not legit. So when they are not legit, how can their reports be legit? How can their news be legit? How can their propaganda be legit?

get it?

I said both use propaganda, never said there isn't legitimate claims coming from both sides.

There is a big difference between being interviewed and making confessions. Most of these guys who have been interviewed are just simple foot soldiers and junior commanders who are not really the decision makers.

see this is exactly what I mean by ignoring evidence; there's no evidence that these are merely foot soldiers as you're suggesting. You're interpolating that as an excuse

which means you'd ignore the evidence regardless by inventing an excuse

So If they have not witnessed anything, then how can anything that they say be reliable? Hearsay evidence is not admissible in court, just so you know.

Hearsay evidence? These are the Taliban themselves. You're assuming it is hearsay

excuse making is not a legal procedure.

[ScimitarXEdge]

There is no point in personally attacking me, I may have a very thick skull that breaks rocks but I'm still a very objective person. You see, you have a personal grudge against the taliban, which has clouded your judgement and reasoning.
.

how can you be objective when you're making excuses to disregard evidence presented to you, when it works against the favor of the Taliban?

That's the farthest thing from objective.
You've sold yourself to Pakistan buddy.

[sanman]

Exactly, there's no point in wasting time with a guy who only pays lip-service to reason.

Others can see him for what he is - a fake.

They say that if you argue with a fool, he'll only take you down to his level, and beat you with experience.

[JAMALUDEEN]

how can you be objective when you're making excuses to disregard evidence presented to you, when it works against the favor of the Taliban?

That's the farthest thing from objective.
You've sold yourself to Pakistan buddy.

So according to your logic, just because I disregard weak evidence, I must be loyal to Pakistan? Maybe i disregard your evidence because i "might" support Iran.. Maybe i disregard your evidence because i might support china.. lol..but thats a big maybe and there is no evidence with which you could prove it, so pretty much you are speculating again.

I thought you were a man of reason Mr ScimitarXEdge.

btw. I disregard your evidence due to your belief that neither sides are legit. Logically speaking, if both sides are not legit, then how can evidence acquired from them be legit? get it?

come on stay honest man.

[JAMALUDEEN]

Sorry, I don't see what standard you have for solid evidence. Frankly, I don't see what standard you have for anything.

What will become quite obvious to you, is that your Pakistan is going down the tubes, and with it will go their Taliban henchmen. Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires, and Pakistan has had one foot in the grave for some time now.

Its okay man, don't get emotional. I'm not your enemy and neither am i Pakistani. I am a Pashtun from both Mom and Dad side.. from the great kandahar.

[JAMALUDEEN]

Exactly, there's no point in wasting time with a guy who only pays lip-service to reason.

Others can see him for what he is - a fake.

Well, why don't you let "others" think for themselves. thank you.

They say that if you argue with a fool, he'll only take you down to his level, and beat you with experience.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

@Jamaludeen, I haven't read the whole thread but are you suggesting that there is no link between the ISI and the Haqqani Network and other groups in North Waziristan?

[JAMALUDEEN]

@Jamaludeen, I haven't read the whole thread but are you suggesting that there is no link between the ISI and the Haqqani Network and other groups in North Waziristan?

nope.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

What is the population of waziristan, khyber and bajaur? How many do you know out of the whole population who support this? I'm sure you are an educated man, but if you wrote a research paper on this.. it would be useless and rejected..

Actually, there is someone who wrote a research paper on this. In fact, she wrote a whole book on the problem. Her research was based on more than 2,000 face-to-face interviews with people from FATA especially and Khyber Pashtunkhwa. She is an Afridi from FATA. She is of the opinion that the people of FATA support the drone attacks there. Her name's Farhat Taj. Look her up.

In fact, the anti-Taliban laskhars in FATA are very popular:

Through their anti-Taliban resistance the Ali Khel raised themselves above the Shia-Sunni differences that the Taliban wanted to create among them. Collectively, they rejected the notion of a Muslim order led by Sunni extremists. The Ali Khel tribe is supposed to be about 40,000. Assume that 50 percent of the population, i.e. 20,000, is female, who do not participate in public affairs like this jirga, a natural outcome of the archaic order codified and imposed by the state on the tribal population rather than something essentially gender discriminatory in the tribal culture — a misleading view that most FATA ‘experts’ would like the world to believe. Keep aside the male elderly, children and labour migrants, the remaining population out of the 20,000 male inhabitants of Orakzai, would be around 5,000, the same number of people who participated in the grand jirga that was destroyed in the suicide bombing.

Moreover, according to Pashtunwali, people given refuge must give up their arms. In the case of the Uzbeks are Arabs in FATA, instead of giving up their weapons, they killed 1,500 Pashtun tribal leaders with the approval of the ISI in order to move in and capture power.

[JAMALUDEEN]

Actually, there is someone who wrote a research paper on this. In fact, she wrote a whole book on the problem. Her research was based on more than 2,000 face-to-face interviews with people from FATA especially and Khyber Pashtunkhwa. She is an Afridi from FATA. She is of the opinion that the people of FATA support the drone attacks there. Her name's Farhat Taj.

can you give me the name of her research paper? So far, whatever I have found is her articles critiquing a research paper "Public Opinion in Pakistan’s Tribal Regions".

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

can you give me the name of her research paper? So far, whatever I have found is her articles critiquing a research paper "Public Opinion in Pakistan’s Tribal Regions".

All her scholarly work and research have culminated into a book that was very recently published by Cambridge Scholars Publishing, an academic publisher. The book isn't an opinion-piece but an academic endeavor to discover the truth.

Home - Cambridge Scholars Publishing

This research is of primary nature and draws on over 2000 face-to-face
interviews, discussions and seminars with people across FATA and the
Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province. These interviews with people from
various walks of life, were conducted over a period of more than two
years. The informants include men and women, lettered and unlettered,
rich and poor, Muslim and non-Muslim (in particular Sikh residents of
FATA).

You can download a sample here.

[ScimitarXEdge]

So according to your logic, just because I disregard weak evidence, I must be loyal to Pakistan? Maybe i disregard your evidence because i "might" support Iran.. Maybe i disregard your evidence because i might support china.. lol..but thats a big maybe and there is no evidence with which you could prove it, so pretty much you are speculating again.

I thought you were a man of reason Mr ScimitarXEdge.

btw. I disregard your evidence due to your belief that neither sides are legit. Logically speaking, if both sides are not legit, then how can evidence acquired from them be legit? get it?

come on stay honest man.

But you're not disregarding weak evidence you're disregarding evidence because you invented some excuse, for example made up some claim that these Taliban commanders are foot soldiers or low level. That wasn't in the text.


Neither side being legit, doesn't mean that everything can be just disregarded as propaganda I said that in some of my earlier posts to you. And thirdly even


I'm being honest; you're just selectively reading; Hard to reason when Individuals like YOURSELF are deliberately being irrational

What you're doing is committing a Straw Man argument, which is Misrepresenting the actual position of your opponent.

Otherwise show direct quotes where I made any of the claims you insist I did.