Taleban commander stoned to death

[khushal]

khushal, i hope you are being sarcastic when you say that obama represents freedom:-0
taliban are like all groups everywhere. from reports of people living under their rule, some are ok, some are not.
the people who join up with the taliban, because of injustices against them by invaders, are not necessarily taliban but are classified as such.

I was trying to point out how ridiculous scimitars logic is on this point.

Every pissed off Pashun is labeled as Taliban.

[faye]

thanks khushal. i forgive you, then lol.

[ScimitarXEdge]

You keep changing goal posts, did you forget our initial argument.

winning does not equal control. once you have won then you have control. But this war is not a military war, it is a political war. America has already won the military aspect of war, where they are failing is the political aspect of this war. The Taliban does not have the capacity to challenge NATO head on, there is no frontline where the Taliban can force NATO to withdraw from their frontline. The Taliban ambush and and when the heat is on them, they disappear and pop up somewhere else. Their strategy is to make the war expensive for NATO and make a headache for NATO to hold on to ground.
No one entity really has control of Helmand. Helmand is in a state of chaos. There is only one entity that is happy in a chaotic state and that is the criminal element.

You have failed in proving why we shouldnt doubt the Afghan official story about how a man with one friend and one bullet is labeled as a Taliban commander who didnt have any men to command and couldnt afford more than one bullet were killed by a group of villagers.
It is time for you to admit that your conspiracy theory is as valid as the Afghan government.

I didn't change any goal post, I have said from the get go that for a Totalitarian group such as the Taliban, control means winning, so if the Taliban never had anything but limited control thenl they never were successful in Afghanistan. That was in response to your claim, which would be proven untrue by the Taliban. The same condition exists now, Taliban are winning against occupiers according to their claims..and the outside press claim similar things...then they become responsible. That's very simple. The proof is there, whether you accept it is only an indication of what you will support regardless of evidence.

So You can doubt anything you want, You'll make up any justification from what it seems with your discourse with Randolph, even use the Insanity plea for the Talibs on why they're deliberately targeting unarmed children for murder; when everyone knows that Even the Early Muslims didn't do such things. What you're doing is special pleading. IF ANYTHING, You want us to accept the Taliban as truthful in their denial but untruthful in their claim of regional control. This is called special Pleading, If Taliban are untruthful in regional control, they become untruthful in their denial. This is called special pleading, another form of goal post moving. The point being if anyone is moving goal posts here it is on the side of those attempting to exonerate the Taliban, not only that it is a straw man, who said that the Taliban had only a single bullet? The reports said they started "firing their WEAPONS" plural. sounds like more than one bullet.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I was trying to point out how ridiculous scimitars logic is on this point.

Every pissed off Pashun is labeled as Taliban.

but you didn't do that.....you invented some nebulous image of just guy with one bullet, which doesn't appear in any of the narratives as a counter response; if anything you argued your own illogical assumptions and left mine untouched.

[unknownprince]

^^Stop accusing others of what you do. You present no evidence other then the fact that you jump to believe Anti-Afghan propaganda. the propaganda you present is weak, and you can't even defend it lol.

YOU LOST.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Brother, I am not saying that ISI or the CIA or the Taliban or Karzai are angelic or demonic as all have an agenda here. My point is that just because the Taliban say something... for example if they allege they took out 5 tanks... doesnt make it true. That information standard should be applied across all accusations including NDS based information. You have not provided sufficient evidence to buttress the claim and we have shown above independent NDS accusations that make it look aloof and foolish and unreliable.

You just pulled a Graveyard by commenting WITHIN my quote instead of quoting each individual point; try not to do that because it makes it hard for me to do point by point reply back since it erases anything within my quote boxes.

Anyways

Not true, point in case the Strauss Kahn case. For all we know Strauss Kahn may or may not have done the dirty deed. The lawyers proved that in other circumstances, the maid had a credibility gap. The reliability of witnesses matters, even in Islamic law. You simply saying that the material provided is what determines credibility is a self made rule.

It is true, it is actually a principle of Logical fallacy.

Fallacy: Circumstantial Ad Hominem

You're making a false analogy when you introduce the comparison between Islamic Legal Procedures. Firstly the fact they use FOUR witnesses who are trustworthy instead of 1 (in cases of adultery) demonstrates that being trust worthiness isn't enough, they need rigorous confirmation from different sources. rigorous evidence, the issue of trustworthiness is not confirmation of proof but discrediting individuals who might claim bias. This is of course in legal cases where penal code is applied. Much different contextually; and not ironically, there's no Islamic requirement of witnesses for Journalistic endeavors. So your claim of witness character as determination for the credibility of their claims is not even applicable in this instance.

This is academic quality, a method utilized by Bukhari,

You're not Bukhari and you fail to realize, that Bukharis methodology was different than yours. He had gradations and a system of determining and evaluating things beyond merely trustworthiness. Even an UNTRUSTWORTHY source can be accepted in Bukharis system if their statements are Mutawatir.
If trustworthiness was their primary basis for determining isnad of ahadith, then ahadith critics would be right in their denial of ahadith. Because such things are highly subjective.

You did not quote the rest of the article from Tolo... not only did NDS and CIA coordinate a rumor about Omar's death to deflate the insurgency (by the way by your standards if the wikileaks veracity is proven by the fact the US wants to expunge them then I would say the ferocity with which the US wants to take out Omar, by your logic, shows hes the real deal... Obama did say, after all, that they absolutely will conduct an Abbatabod style raid if they find out Omar's location).

But the cases are not analagous; Wikileaks is trying to be expunged because of INFORMATION that the U.S. wants hidden. U.S. wanting to expunge Omar is debatable. If they truly wanted Omar gone, they wouldn't be paying Pakistan millions to keep him alive in Quetta.

The issue of NDS and CIA is absurd, since they said that the claims could not be corroborated. If they actually wanted to coordinate a rumor they'd have said there is a definitive body of information.

Supposedly they killed the Colonel and Khalid Khwaja... once again proving that had another Pakistani official of repute (say Hamid Gul) fallen into their hands and walked into Waziristan they would have.

This might give added clarity as to why Pakistani Taliban executed Col. Imam and Khwaja Khalid

Ex-spy held by militants demands help – The Express Tribune

“You people are fully aware of the role I played for the nation and my country during my service,” said Imam, reading from a written statement with two masked gunmen behind him. “But if the government of Pakistan does not care for me, I will also not care for it and will expose all its weaknesses.”

Interesting so they killed Col. Imam after he threatened to expose Pakistan.....I think we've found a smoking gun wouldn't you?

Also strangely enough Imam and Khwaja were killed by Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, a Non-Pakhtun, ISI created Militant Group; in an incarnation called Asian Tigers.

Your case is diminishing wrora.

Prove its a tangent. Its relevant to the argument.

Because wrora It's a Fallacy of Association.

"I'm alive, I'm here in Pindi. It's diabolical nonsense. I don't know why they are spreading such rumours. I would simply laugh over it," he said"

There are airplanes and helicopters, all at the ISI's disposal, it's not as if they can't be used. You act like people being able to move distance of 500 KM in a few hours is unheard of.

Come on, this is Zaid Hamid conspricy hour now.

Zaid Hamid is PRO-Pakistan, I seriously doubt he'd argue such a point. You're trying to basicaly argue

"my brain has the inability to comprehend how things like traveling short distances in relatively short time" and "how could America let Hamid Gul go even though it pumps billions into Pakistan after knowing its relationship to the Taliban"

I cannot speak for them.

well then please don't pass arguments based on their level of comprehension.

for what purposes. Pakistan benefits perhaps by continuing to receive military aid and $$$ but the US would and will take him out if they find him. They have no reason not to

America made Saddam killed him now have access to Iraqi oil and resources, America developed AQaeda, killed Bin Laden, legitimize their hegemonic revivalism in the post cold war era in the name of fighting terrorism. It is about hegemony. Imperialism, it doesn't care how it is done, just as long as it is done. Pakistani elite don't really care for its citizens, they just want to continue living well.

The Colonel and Khalid Khwaja had been there in the past as well. Doesnt mean anything.

Hamid Gul wasn't threatening to expose Pakistan. Col. Imam was.

Witnesses should be reliable, NDS is an unreliable witness with an agenda. I would treat and do treat Taliban commentary about their various accomplishments with the same suspicion. The Taliban has also a proven track record of generating propaganda (Refsdahl himself said he never witnessed Commander Dauran hit a convoy in his stunning documentary).

again fallacy of association is not a good reason.

You did not search deeper. Its part of a coordinate effort to disenchant fighters and destroy their morale.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...76J0K820110720

you just contradicted yourself; you said you'd look at Taliban claims with scrutiny but you're here taking the Taliban on their word.


so what is clear is you have an INTRINSIC Bias for the Taliban and will favor whatever they claim.

I don't have a bias for the NDS or CIA, I think they're faces of Imperialism. But that doesn't mean they don't reveal interesting things about themselves.

IF ANYTHING ....this would only lend credence to the theory of CIA-ISI-TALIBAN associations.. How else would the CIA get access to Zabiullah Mujahid ad Qari Ahmad Yousuf's text messages, they would have to kno everything from where abouts and locations.

Where?

When you were talking about their Wikileaks releases having little consequence or weight. I highlighted the Taliban are using it for their intelligence.

they are diplomatic cables describing conversations and penned by juniour staffers... no more, no less. They have a low specificity measure for making a diagnosis.

You're painting your own portrayal of the sources; this is called interpolation and is inconsequential.

Calling this a logic fallacy will not undo the massive blow this strikes to your argument. Here is why:

1) You are saying that wikileaks must reliable in the case of Hamid gul... I ask you to prove this... you say its because of the hooplah that Pakistan threw subsequently and that then proves its true.

That's a Faux Pas on your part, the Onus is on you to prove it's unreliable or forged. Your reasoning as to why they couldn't be true has so far been that you can't imagine Hamid Gul going to Waziristan to dictate to the Talibs when Col. Imam was there But the fact that Col Imam was killed AFTER he threatened Pakistan's strategic interests, and Hamid Gul works specifically for Pakistan's strategic interests. confirms the Taliban-ISI connection vis'a vis Gul. The fact they didn't kill ISI agent Gul who loves Pakistan but Col . Imam who threatens to expose Pakistan. demonstrates their connection.

2) You have not addressed source control... unreliable witnesses (NDS) are just that... unreliable... commenting on issues being unrelated doesnt undo the damage to the theory.

I have, your contention is a logical fallacy, you can say it 100 times, it still won't be admissible.

3) By extension... Erdogan is mad... he has threatened to sue... so therefore, the wikileaks about him must be true by your logic... and no I cannot accept your argument that they are unrelated events and so we cannot judge the wikileak you want to be true but cannot prove to be true as independent from the Erdogan wikileak.

You're trying to prove it wrong by "proxy"; Which even if in this case weren't true HYPOTHETICALLY, wouldn't disprove the other material in Wikileaks. But just because it exposes other Major Leaders, doesn't dent its credibility.

This is precisely what I mean hen I say you're on a tangent


You'll have to actually work and find evidential reasons, not theorized opinions about the nature of the sources, to dispell their claims.

Otherwise you're being futile here

[khushal]

but you didn't do that.....you invented some nebulous image of just guy with one bullet, which doesn't appear in any of the narratives as a counter response; if anything you argued your own illogical assumptions and left mine untouched.

Faye is talking about this statement which does not say anything about the guy with friend and one bullet. It talks about how Obama is a just person that represents freedom in the world by your own unrealistic logic makes it factual.

I think you are getting a little desperate here. Your redefining Truth according to your conspiracy theory. Since Obama claims to represent freedom in the world, and we know from multiple sources that obama does represent freedom, in effect it must be factual.

[ScimitarXEdge]

^^Stop accusing others of what you do. You present no evidence other then the fact that you jump to believe Anti-Afghan propaganda. the propaganda you present is weak, and you can't even defend it lol.

YOU LOST.

If I provide no evidence, why do idiots like you keep trying to find excuses for everything I present.

[khushal]

I didn't change any goal post, I have said from the get go that for a Totalitarian group such as the Taliban, control means winning, so if the Taliban never had anything but limited control thenl they never were successful in Afghanistan. That was in response to your claim, which would be proven untrue by the Taliban. The same condition exists now, Taliban are winning against occupiers according to their claims..and the outside press claim similar things...then they become responsible. That's very simple. The proof is there, whether you accept it is only an indication of what you will support regardless of evidence.

So You can doubt anything you want, You'll make up any justification from what it seems with your discourse with Randolph, even use the Insanity plea for the Talibs on why they're deliberately targeting unarmed children for murder; when everyone knows that Even the Early Muslims didn't do such things. What you're doing is special pleading. IF ANYTHING, You want us to accept the Taliban as truthful in their denial but untruthful in their claim of regional control. This is called special Pleading, If Taliban are untruthful in regional control, they become untruthful in their denial. This is called special pleading, another form of goal post moving. The point being if anyone is moving goal posts here it is on the side of those attempting to exonerate the Taliban, not only that it is a straw man, who said that the Taliban had only a single bullet? The reports said they started "firing their WEAPONS" plural. sounds like more than one bullet.

You have proved nothing but making desperate attempts to prove yourself right because initially on this thread you made an impulsive decision on believing the Afghan official words without further proof on what is real and what is propaganda. Now you have said many times in your posts that you care about the truth and you even argued against Toramana about the 8 yr old boy being hanged by the Taliban and said that you dont support the Taliban but it is important to be truthful. In this debate you are not being truthful. your coming up with insane logic by saying the the TAliban claim to control helmand and therefore every armed person in helmond has to be Taliban therefore these armed men are Taliban, you know for a fact that there are many NATO forces and ANA forces in helmond but your arrogance is blinding you. Come back to reality and concede on this issue. If you want to expose the Taliban as cruel, you have many other stories that you could use without a doubt but this story is pointless because there is too much doubt.
Randolph on the other hand is using a more logic approach and using a different story and he is not arguing about this man with friend story which he himself knows there is doubt.

Also you haven't even proved that the Taliban are totalitarian but on the contrary they left the majority of the population alone, they even left the hindus, sihks and the only two remaining jews alone in kabul. One of the main reasons the the population regards the TAliban as the lesser evil is because they respect the dignity of the people, and in pashtun land dignity is respecting namos, respecting culture. The Americans dont know what this means. The amreicans come from a place where there is no culture, they come from a place where women and men are equal in every aspect so touching them or taking their tekri off of them or coming in to their homes in the middle of the night is not biggie in the mind of the average american soldier, wht is the big deal they say, we are doing our job, we are trying to keep you safe. They dont get it that they are over there and they should abide by their culture if they dont want to get shot at not the other way around. The Taliban get it, they respect this aspect of the populations culture and sensativities, so who is acting totalitarian and who isn't. There is a reason that people with stone age weapons are defeating a super power with the best technological weapons, its because one knows the value of respect and the other is too arrogant to know why that should be a factor.

I'm not using the insanity plea for the Talibs but I am saying the war will bring out the insanity in people including NATO and ANA forces. What do you think these Abu Ghraib and Guantanomo torture techniques are, they are insane, they don't make sense, but US forces are employing them and are not shy about it because the insanity has come out in them just like it did in other wars, in every single war, they have tortured people and have purposefully bombed civilians. Why are they not really bringing justice to the soldiers that torture these people, they get a year in some comfy hotel room. they don't give them any justice because they know the circumstance that these men are in, they are in an insane environment.

The vast majority of the resistance is from the pissed off Pashtuns and what do you expect from them, you think these pissed off pashtuns are prophets who can do no wrong, they are just ordinary people who will react to stimuli the same way any ordinary human being would. Dont compare these simple pashtuns to the early muslims., the early muslims were great people who had the guidance of our prophet (pbuh).

Your logic is insane and don't make sense.

[ScimitarXEdge]

You've given no legitimate reason why the Afghan official or villagers such as Haji Ahmad Shah Khan is wrong.

other than you think they're uo to something; all I have been doing is showing that no matter how you cut it the Taliban would have been the culprits. You seem not to comprehend that. Which is what happens when you align oneself to people who are even against things you endorse like development and progress. Sometimes Pakhtun pride needs to take the backseat to Moral Justice.

[Alchemist]

You've given no legitimate reason why the Afghan official or villagers such as Haji Ahmad Shah Khan is wrong.

other than you think they're uo to something; all I have been doing is showing that no matter how you cut it the Taliban would have been the culprits. You seem not to comprehend that. Which is what happens when you align oneself to people who are even against things you endorse like development and progress. Sometimes Pakhtun pride needs to take the backseat to Moral Justice.

Development and Progress served by America?
or the Moral Justice that American soldiers carry out on a daily basis?

Because logically your sense of justice is validated every time a US soldier kills a "Taliban" ...who just happens to be pashtun.

This is interesting ...

[ScimitarXEdge]

That wasn't the argument Alchemist ....stop derailing threads...just because you're a humiliated hypocrite please.

[faye]

^^Stop accusing others of what you do. You present no evidence other then the fact that you jump to believe Anti-Afghan propaganda. the propaganda you present is weak, and you can't even defend it lol.

YOU LOST.

so where do you ever follow through with a good debate about anything? you usually pull out the hysterics and start abusing and making false claims about others intent.

[Khyber Pass]

google 'genocide of hazaras' and read some eyewitness reports about the talibans behaviour. recently hazaras were on a tv program, here in australia, telling some of their reasons for becoming refugees.
the taliban kill people for working to improve the country as it is considered, working for the enemy. poor innocent people who need to work to survive and keep their families alive.

Not to make any conterversy but all Hazaras I know, are very very bad muslims. They say their muslim but at the same time they eat, drink, club, and the list goes on. The taliban were right for killing them, most of them are harami's.

[faye]

how sweet, khyber ass.