Taleban commander stoned to death

[khushal]

but also doesn't guarantee lying.

Im not saying the Afghan officials are lying for certain, Im saying that it is possible. WE just dont know the facts.

Given the Tribal structure of Afghanistan if that was the case they would have gotten away with it anyways. remember Badal?

Badal exists, but you dont always get away with it, sometimes bribes are neccesary. Many times people pack up and permenantly migrate from the village when a killing happens because the killing cycle almost never ends, it continues for generations sometimes.
There are many instances where the Amreicans are used to bomb a "turbur" house because of local disputes by saying such a person is a talib and the Americans are not even aware of it.

That's your own belief; this isn't a universal principle.

Its not universal but it does often happen in Afghanistan

Sure but then that completely contradicts your initial argument; you actually just switched your argument....which is cool because it means you concede that the Taliban are fully willing to lie; and furthermore if they were NATO they'd have been discovered after being killed.

I have said many times that the Taliban lie, everybody in war does. I think you misunderstood me. I dont mean to say that these two individuals were NATO, what I was saying is that the possiblilty of a Taliban commander going to a village with one body guard and executing an old man is as remote as a NATO commander going into a village with one soldier and killing an old man.

What I'm saying is that if we went by that asumption then we dont know ANYTHING at all ...then why are you so adamant about calling Taliban liberators of Afghnistan? You only play off of ambiguity when it suits you but we have practical certainties. The idea of a mass conspiracy to lie is unfounded Independent source EVEN Talib members themselves confirm the behavior There's no strategic advantage to lie and the NATO disguised a Talibs angle would have been exposed by now.

I never called Taliban as Afghan liberators, I did say they are a reaction to the occupation. NATO disguised as Talib angle is ridiculous just like a Taliban commander going into a village with one bodyguard and executing an old man. He is not a commander if he has no people can do that for him. He is just a man with one friend.

FURTHERMORE One last thing I forgot to mention; the Afghan government would have more reason to cover up the incident because it would demonstrate their failure you to govern and protect Afghanistan/provide security and discredit them more, forcing Afghan civilians to take charge.

In short, the civilians tore Taliban a new hole; Allahu Akbar.

Not neccesarily, The afghan government could be giving confidence to other villagers and villages to rise up and kill all Taliban because they are nothing but killers.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I wouldnt agree. Hekmet Karzai himself has conceded, alongside Zaeef that all that kills is not Talib:

straw man, never argued that. you're on a tangent now.

Furthermore, Badaal, my friend is not such a simple activating mechanism.

We're talking about tribesman here, they operate on a dfferent scale, I never said it is simple, but it's 'above the law"

I fault neither the Americans nor the Taliban for these reports as this is the propaganda war in full swing.

The difference is that we now have confirmed situations where the Americans have been caught, red handed, covering up atrocities.
The Taliban make no such qualms. They are not so sophisticated yet, to do so.

well then this suffices fine, since it is neither the Talibs nor the Americans, but Afghans themselves.

Finally, Petreus's red cell memo, regarding shoring up European opinion to back the war, utilizing womens rights as a basis, is now well known and circulated.

True I know this; but if you're referring to the Taliban kidnapping and black market trafficking of women, that was waaaaay before Petreus.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Im not saying the Afghan officials are lying for certain, Im saying that it is possible. WE just dont know the facts.

But we can deduce them and I did

remember that deductive reasoning you were talking about? IT's baaaaaack.

Badal exists, but you dont always get away with it, sometimes bribes are neccesary. Many times people pack up and permenantly migrate from the village when a killing happens because the killing cycle almost never ends, it continues for generations sometimes.

and who's to say they got away with it? The Talibs might try and badal them now. I'm just saying that the issue of getting away with it is a flimsy argument.


There are many instances where the Amreicans are used to bomb a "turbur" house because of local disputes by saying such a person is a talib and the Americans are not even aware of it.

Its not universal but it does often happen in Afghanistan

It's common enough to be a Pastunwali concept

I have said many times that the Taliban lie, everybody in war does. I think you misunderstood me. I dont mean to say that these two individuals were NATO, what I was saying is that the possiblilty of a Taliban commander going to a village with one body guard and executing an old man is as remote as a NATO commander going into a village with one soldier and killing an old man.

Not if you consider the hyper arrogance the Taliban have.

I never called Taliban as Afghan liberators, I did say they are a reaction to the occupation. NATO disguised as Talib angle is ridiculous just like a Taliban commander going into a village with one bodyguard and executing an old man. He is not a commander if he has no people can do that for him. He is just a man with one friend.

No the Taliban killing an old man isn't just plausible, it's been done and even proudly displayed by Talibs. the issue of them walking in with one guard as if they own the place also isn't implausible if you consider the intimidation factor or torturing and maiming people

Not neccesarily, The afghan government could be giving confidence to other villagers and villages to rise up and kill all Taliban because they are nothing but killers.

which in turn would be a disaster ince if that was the case the Taliban wouldnt have such a control vacuum upperhand with Government, hence the Major of Kabul comments.

nice try dude.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

straw man, never argued that. you're on a tangent now.







We're talking about tribesman here, they operate on a dfferent scale, I never said it is simple, but it's 'above the law"

I fault neither the Americans nor the Taliban for these reports as this is the propaganda war in full swing.



well then this suffices fine, since it is neither the Talibs nor the Americans, but Afghans themselves.



True I know this; but if you're referring to the Taliban kidnapping and black market trafficking of women, that was waaaaay before Petreus.

Hardly a straw man, its just such a case as Hekmet Karzai is talking about. A clear case example of Afghans mis reporting folks as Talibs is Bacha Zadraan who informed the media and the Americans that his opponent Khan Khel tribe was Taliban friendly... this resulted in the deaths of many innocent people. Saleh and others have reportedly claimed that Mr. Karzai wanted to join the Taliban. So the straw man is your attempt to say that since Afghan officials said it, its trust worthy. The local boys who killed the man should be tracked down and spoken to if we want to hear the end of this. Until then the verdict is out. The same goes for US troops... earlier this year there was a report of a rape in the Herat region that was likely propaganda.

Regarding women, I would disagree, after all using your own source Rashid, the legend of Omar's rise that is popular to this day around Kandahar, is that he took up the gun to save two girls being raped by "muj" commanders. I think its a little disingenous to now tie all evils and Satan's tail to the taliban as if they were Satan Inc. selling women out of Qandahar with Omar sitting there directing multiple levels of Shayateen to prostitute Afghan women. Their acceptance generally, even per Mr. Karzai's own witnessed accounts, is that they stopped such practices with brutal efficiency.

I think you are attempting at this point, to show independence from all existing movements and label all their deficiencies (which is not a bad thing in that healthy criticism to improve a movement should be welcomed). However, the practicaly of your options that you presented is extremely limited at all levels of application. The general gist of your criticisms boils down to: we are allowed to believe shadowy theories about the Taliban and about Hamid Gul being in waziristan's hills against all the empiric odds per NDS reports (despite the fact that two well known Pakistani agents with more pull, such as Khwajaa and Tarar could not make it out of Waziristan alive).

This then in turns binds us to support a random official such as that gentleman in the videos you sent, who have no arms, no militia, and no people power traction so that we work within the confines of an already flawed system. I already produced the NATO commentary that clearly states they are not obligated to obey Mr. Karzai when he asks them to stop bombing civilians... so its a non start option to work within the constitutional confines of Afghanistan's adopted constitution. Zahir Shah himself was not happy with the loya jirga, and he was one of their rented men...

I have seen elections on both sides of the borders now and what generally happens is that villagers rally around their mishr who tells them how to vote.

This leaves the option of only armed resistance. In the arena of armed resistance there are multiple groups that are loosely aligned. A number of these groups had Pakistani funding and are permitted, like Azzam was, to operate under Pakistani jurisdiction if they are not given direct arms. You still have not yet addressed Abdul Azzam's utilization of Pakistani resources and why this does not put him Omar's camp. For that matter, we have yet to see direct commentary from Omar that he was anything but an Afghan who lost his eye fighting the Russians. Until I see you produce such directly linking evidence, I think this amounts to being a contrarian simply to be a contrarian.

Its the same issue with Ahmad Mossoud. I have heard reports about him having done this that or the other... but logic tells me that Azzam must have liked him for a reason. I need to read up on this and investigate why this ways before I simply write him off.

If the argument here is that the other armed resistance movements ought to crop up, then I am all ears. Who are they?

You note that Ashraf leaves people with just two options: Karzai or Omar. I dont think this is necessarily the case as most folks recognize that when all is said and done, multiple groups such as the Haqqanis, Hekmetyaar, Omar's factions, The waziristanis, and a host of others will be wanting a piece of the pie. The taliban is not a centralized, CENTCOM style insurgency as US military pressure has made it hard for these local commanders to coordinate.

Also, Zaeef was a part of the central shura... Pakistan turned him over to Guantanamo. To this day he referes to the multi headed ISI hydra that shows different faces to different people. OBL himself wrote to Nawaz Sharif to congratulate him when the first Pakistani nuke was detonated. Does this mean that he was also closet ISI?

The issue that I agree with you on is that none of these groups on the Pakistani side of the border have yet evidenced an ability to extricate themselves post Nek Muhammad, from their tribal loyalties to a greater cause. The Taliban foot soldiers in FATA were as willing to take bribes as were were corrupt Pakistani officials.

However, armed struggle is the only way out of this mess for the Afghan people and they recognize this. I cannot undercut them by simply demoralizing them and telling then that simple logic (i.e. assymetric warfare leads) need not apply when they face a killing machine in the skies or on the ground.

We once discussed this and you pointed to the relative lack of atrocities in the early phase of the Russo Afghan conflict. Take a look at Refsdahl's work where he notes that that particular group had the best of all sorts of arms and weapons when he rode alongside them in the 1980s... whereas Commander Dauran and his men had Korean era weaponry that they were using.

As I have always stated, the bacteria is Western imperialism and interventionalism... the enviroment is made ripe by the ability of the locals to sell their own up a river for gain.

[ScimitarXEdge]

too much text , give me the cliff notes

[khushal]

But we can deduce them and I did

remember that deductive reasoning you were talking about? IT's baaaaaack.

You have to have the facts first, in this case we don't. your just speculating.
one side is saying they didnt do it and the other side is saying they did it, you must have evidence in order to make an accurate judgement.
If a serial killer admits to 100 kills, the authorities don't automatically tie all the kills to the serial killer, they have to have evidence otherwise they wont investigate and the true killer can go free.

and who's to say they got away with it? The Talibs might try and badal them now. I'm just saying that the issue of getting away with it is a flimsy argument.

Why would the Taliban try to avenge this if they claim it was not their men. Getting away with killing someone is not a far fetched motive. Im not saying thats what happened but We just dont know the facts here.

It's common enough to be a Pastunwali concept

I dont know what you mean here.

Not if you consider the hyper arrogance the Taliban have.

If the Taliban commander has arrogance, the more reason they would admit it and also the more reason the commander would not do the deed himself, but would order a foot soldier to do it. An arrogant man would never do the job of a foot soldier.

No the Taliban killing an old man isn't just plausible, it's been done and even proudly displayed by Talibs. the issue of them walking in with one guard as if they own the place also isn't implausible if you consider the intimidation factor or torturing and maiming people

just because it has been done before does not mean every single kill is done by a taliban. this is improbable. It does not make sense for a man with one friend go into a village and kill an old man and then call that man a Taliban commander with a body guard.
.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

too much text , give me the cliff notes

Simple example: In the middle of last year the karzai government... comprised of Afghans who claim to know the land and the terrain... who have the same NDS that fed the wiki report you cited... alongside US players claimed that they were flying in, on multiple occasions, a high level Taliban dignitary who was leading talks with them. Turned out that the dude was just some Quettan scrub looking out for some free flights to Kabul. Yet Karzai and his brother's Qandahari cronies vetted this slick Rick. So if they cannot even identify the higher ups... how do you expect us to believe that they can finger the lower downs? Its just not empirical. We have neither the sons of the old man directly quoted... nor do we have witnesses to the crime... we got no body... its just all hearsay and Petreus talking until proven otherwise.

Same goes for the Talibs in Refsdahl's videos who seemed like good guys, Commander Dauran and his men, but Refsdahl admitted he never saw them actually hit a convoy. Until I see the evidence of it, I wont believe it.

[unknownprince]

[QUOTE]

Until I see you produce such directly linking evidence, I think this amounts to being a contrarian simply to be a contrarian.

You have finally realized like Alchemist the issue with our friend Scimitar here. He argues for the sake of arguing, and will never concede his flawed points.

Even when there is agreement, Scimitar is conditioned to be a contrarian as noted below ( at the very end of this post he still wants to argue with the ISIKhan fake identity despite the agreement). but even when ISIkhan (lol) confirms his perspectives, he still wants to argue despite the apparent agreement.

ScimitarXEdge,

You are a smart one, and have discovered one of the biggest secrets of the ISI- YES, Afghans fighting against the US occupation fight for Pakistan!!! All Taliban leadership are under the Imperius spell

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Imperius_Curse

"Total control. I could make it jump out the window, drown itself, throw itself down one of your throats..." —Barty Crouch Jr. as Alastor Moody on a spider he had put under Imperius Curse[src]

The Imperius Curse is one of the three Unforgivable Curses. When cast successfully, it places the victim completely under the caster's control, though a person with exceptional strength of will is capable of resisting it. This makes it unique among the unforgivable curses, as it is the only one of them with a known, reliable method of resistance. The curse's incantation is Imperio.


Voldemort gave us first hand lessons on this, and we obviously gave him Harry Potter as part of the deal.

Ooops- the cat is out of the bag- what to do now?

This is a major problem within the agency. How did you find out that Afghans are fighting and dying for Jinnah? Do you also know that Taliban plan to make Bhangra the national dance?


20 years ago, our Father of our nuclear program, Abdul Qadeer Khan had a side project in which we were able to control peoples minds and actions. As you know AQ Khan was also a graduate of Hogwarts School of WitchCraft and Wizardry. He had the honor of being classmates with Voldmermot and Harry Potter, both who gave him extensive advice on how to control the Afghan Pashtun warriors.

This research paid of as the Afghans are defeating another empire - WOOOHOOO.

THATS US BABY.........

ISIKhan
Guest

Posts: n/a

Today, 02:53 PM

Only problem is it backfired. You see, the Pashtuns outsmarted us, yet again. Voldemort had been with them, and they made him teach them the Avada Kedavra spell. As expected, we were beaten like no ones business in Waziristan. They put us in our place. Why should we ever listen to American, and have 5000 die for what?

never again.

Avada Kedavra - The Killing CurseEdit

Description: Causes instant death. The incantation of Avada Kedavra causes a blindingly intense green bolt of light to shoot from the end of the caster's wand, which, on contact with the victim, results in instant death. There are no secondary effects; the victim simply "drops dead" for no biological reason. It is possible that the victim's internal organs cease function. Muggle coroners would be unable to find a cause of death in such an attack, but the Ministry of Magic recognises the signs of the curse.
The Killing Curse has no counter-curse or blocking spell, although the green bolt may be dodged or blocked with solid objects. For instance, Albus Dumbledore once transfigured a statue from the Fountain of Magical Brethren to shield Harry Potter from Voldemort's Killing Curse during the Battle of the Department of Mysteries. If the curse misses the victim and strikes an inanimate object instead, a small explosion at the point of impact results, which may start a fire of green flame.
ISIKhan
Guest

Posts: n/a

Today, 07:23 PM

^you see that Omar Hotak was a tough one to control.

Our spells were outdated. We tried using imperius spell, but he possessed the elder wand, and also knew the Avada Kadavra spell. You see we lost 5000 when we went to Waziristan.

Everything backfired, and now look at the position we are in.

Now, we try to stay the heck away. 5000 Pakistani soldiers killed by the Avada Kadavra spell- don't know whether to be proud or ashamed of this. They died for US dollars, I think it was $500,000 with some discount for Delta airlines flight we got.

Oh well, cheapness bit us in the ass.


Last edited by ISIKhan; Today at 07:25 PM. ScimitarXEdge
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Today, 12:32 PM

LOL @ Asshat Gayguy's and Gravekhar's attempt at making a new ID to dissuade the connection between the Taliban and ISI has backfired

hahhaa watch I predict the Pakistani Slaves will start attacking Bengal Tiger for being Bengali and ridicule his ethnicity.

[ScimitarXEdge]

You have to have the facts first, in this case we don't. your just speculating.
one side is saying they didnt do it and the other side is saying they did it, you must have evidence in order to make an accurate judgement.
If a serial killer admits to 100 kills, the authorities don't automatically tie all the kills to the serial killer, they have to have evidence otherwise they wont investigate and the true killer can go free.

well I did have facts and based on those facts I made deductions; the deductions lead me to conclude Talibs got killed by Afghan villagers and rightfully so.

My facts were that there's no reason for the Government to lie; in fact they'd have more reason to deny it too, and that the Taliban have a reason to lie and cover things up.

Why would the Taliban try to avenge this if they claim it was not their men. Getting away with killing someone is not a far fetched motive. Im not saying thats what happened but We just dont know the facts here.

officially they deny it, but that won't preclude them from revenge.


I dont know what you mean here.

If the Taliban commander has arrogance, the more reason they would admit it and also the more reason the commander would not do the deed himself, but would order a foot soldier to do it. An arrogant man would never do the job of a foot soldier.

Actually that's why they wouldn't admit it; remember Talibs are trying to do DAMAGE control now.

just because it has been done before does not mean every single kill is done by a taliban. this is improbable. It does not make sense for a man with one friend go into a village and kill an old man and then call that man a Taliban commander with a body guard.
.

I never said that because they did it before; but that there's nothing that would stop them from doing it now, the fact they did it before would be reason for damage control

It makes sense to me; Taliban are tyrannical a-holes, a-holes are as a-hole does.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Simple example: In the middle of last year the karzai government... comprised of Afghans who claim to know the land and the terrain... who have the same NDS that fed the wiki report you cited... alongside US players claimed that they were flying in, on multiple occasions, a high level Taliban dignitary who was leading talks with them. Turned out that the dude was just some Quettan scrub looking out for some free flights to Kabul. Yet Karzai and his brother's Qandahari cronies vetted this slick Rick. So if they cannot even identify the higher ups... how do you expect us to believe that they can finger the lower downs? Its just not empirical. We have neither the sons of the old man directly quoted... nor do we have witnesses to the crime... we got no body... its just all hearsay and Petreus talking until proven otherwise.

Same goes for the Talibs in Refsdahl's videos who seemed like good guys, Commander Dauran and his men, but Refsdahl admitted he never saw them actually hit a convoy. Until I see the evidence of it, I wont believe it.

We have the testimony of villagers

the ONUS is on YOU to show they're lying. Victims arent guilty until proven innocent

[BarakzaiAbdali]

We have the testimony of villagers

the ONUS is on YOU to show they're lying. Victims arent guilty until proven innocent

Where is the testimony of the villagers? Thats absurd and would not stand up in any court of law here in the US. Those accused of rape are not guilty till proven innocent either. Take a look at the Strauss Kahn case... if the accuser has flaws in their background or character they very well may be dismissed as reliable.

If Bacha Khan Zadran, a villager, has killed someone in the black reporting hole known as Afghanistan, and then called them Talib and gotten away with it... and this has been repeated again and again, then the onus is on you to prove that this is ipso facto not an incident where two parties clashed and the winner called the dead Taliban.

The same goes for Omar. The onus is on you to prove a direct link to the ISI. You cannot have it both ways by saying that someone you like gets due process and someone you dont, doesnt.

[Alchemist]

****mitarsexedge needs a good beating....his annoying ass is getting too much.. lol

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The original report itself is also vague. So you have two gunmen and they shoot a dude point blank. And then, like the incredible Hulk x 2, the sons overpower these gun men, and take away their guns... while these guys who just shot this guy in hostile territory are standing there waiting for folks to tear them apart? Its incredulous and incredible. What did they come equipped with one bullet and not two or three?

Also when you read the extended NY Times version of the events it discusses a concurrent adjacent event of two Afghan troops being strung up by the militants and notes:
“Then, the armed men and some of their other local friends started stoning them brutally and then hanged them,” Colonel Aqa said.

So nearbye you have local "friends" or supporters as well.

Moreover, the government officials are quoted extensively saying things like:

"Hajji Abdul Manaf Kan, the district governor, said the stoning showed that fear of the Taliban is waning as security has improved in the area. “When the people feel secure, they will definitely rise up against the Taliban,” he said"

But the victims and the others are not quoted at all.

Case closed.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Here is the NY Times version:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/wo...ghanistan.html

Im not saying that each and every Taliban member is a holy warrior or saint. In fact, just as the US foot soldier may be a rapist, dumb-ass, or local thug back in Cincinnati, OH or the like... the Taliban foot soldier may very well be some local Ghul or vegabond.

But the quality of evidence here is poor.. as poor as that reported case of rape by a US soldier in Herat months ago that had everyone fuming here.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

OK, so I read through the article in even more detail to make sure Im not missing any villagers and here is the list of names I come up with:

Dawud Ahmadi (government official)
Hajji Hayatullah (government official)
Hajji Abdul Manaff Khan (government official)

Then there is this interesting name:
Haji Ahmad Shah Khan (interestingly, a tribal elderr in NAWA but not Trekh Zaba) - he refers to armed men.. but does not use the word Talib or the group Taliban

Colonel Aqa (hmmm, i wonder what side he is on)

Qari Ahmadi (taliban) - denies involvement.

So Scimitar, I fail to see the quality of evidence here. I enjoy our back and forth, as being a contrarian is not a bad thing... but I expect more from your or at least an admission that this is flimsy evidence. There is much more out there to prove that local talibs can be cruel.. but this case is lacking in merit.