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  • Wising Up On Afghanistan

    Let's start with that old Rand McNally three-dimensional map of the world that formerly graced the walls of grammar schools across the country (I happen to have one in my closet). It has low spots to demonstrate deep-sea trenches and bumps for mountain ranges. Among the biggest set of bumps are the Hindu Kush (the western extension of the Himalayas) that corresponds to the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. The highest of those bumps is Mt. Noshaq (24,580 ft).
    This is also a very long border, 1,510 miles more or less (more on that later). Think of the distance between Portland, ME and Miami, FL, New York City and Dallas/Fort Worth, or London and Moscow. It is mostly really big bumps, (except some lower ones on the western edge of the border), so it is not only long, it contains some of the most formidable terrain on the planet.

    In fact the "official" border is marked from Sikaram Peak to Laman Peak. It is always a bad idea to fight a war where you measure the battlefield by the distance between peaks. If there are general rules of war, certainly one of them is: "Do not fight in places that the Rand McNally three-dimensional map puts lots of bumps."


    This is also not a border, in the normal sense of word, with the striped guardhouses and border checks. For one thing, the Afghans and the Pakistanis had nothing to do with establishing it. That was done—with considerable mischief in mind— in 1893 by Sir Mortimer Durand, then England's lead colonial officer in India (Pakistan did not yet exist).


    His plan was to split up the Pashtuns—an ethnic group who have populated the region since at least the fifth century BC—so that they would not constitute a majority in either region. Pashtuns make up about 42 percent of Afghanistan and about 15 percent of Pakistan. The Pashtuns have never recognized the Durand Line, and neither has the government in Kabul. This makes Pakistan nervous, because aside from India, one of the things Islamabad fears most is ethnic dismemberment: the establishment of an independent Pashtunistan.

    Pashtuns on both sides of the border are bound by a common language, culture and kinship system, so independence is hardly out of the question.


    Pashtuns are among the most hospitable people in the world, but they don't like being invaded or occupied, which no one has successfully managed to do, although many have tried. A 19th century British general remarked that when one gets ready to invade the area, the first thing to do is plan a line of retreat, the inevitable course followed by all militaries.

    So now, let's look at "layered defense along the border," as well as American pressure on the Pakistani military "to cleanse their border of militants."

    First, from the Pashtuns' point of view, Pakistan's military is just as much a foreign intruder as were the Greeks, Buddhists, Mongols, Muslims, and British, and Islamabad's army would have just about the same level of success as all those other invaders. Second, any attempt to "cleanse" the border would stir up major hostilities among the tribes and clans in both countries and feed Pashtun nationalism, which is exactly what Islamabad does not want to do.

    But even if Pakistan was to decide to actually try to "cleanse" the border, Islamabad has neither the manpower nor the money to do so (even if it were possible, which history argues it is not). Pakistan has some 1.4 million men under arms, but only a little over 600,000 of those are regular troops. The rest are reserves or border police and local paramilitaries. And most of those troops have to be kept on the border with India, with which Pakistan has fought three wars.

    Pakistan's military is currently engaged both in fighting its own domestic Taliban in South Waziristan and maintaining troops in North Waziristan, but the North West Frontier and Federally Administered Tribal Areas—the part of the world we are talking about—are vast tracts of terrain, and "pacifying" them is quite beyond the capabilities of any army in the world, let alone Pakistan's.

    The situation is not much different on the Afghan side of the border. The combined NATO forces are about 132,000, of which 100,000 are Americans (although 4,000 are headed home in the next few months). However, with the exception of the British, Canadians and Australians, most of the allied troops are not involved in active combat, so the actual number of troops available is closer 110,000. And not all of those troops fight. Some drive trucks, some handle supplies and logistics, some man bases. The final number of fighters? Maybe 60,000.

    The Afghan Army is somewhere between 150,000 and 171,000—the exact number is hard to pin down because so many desert within the first few months—of which only several thousand—two brigades— are capable of fighting on their own. There are also134,000 Afghan police, but they don't fight. In fact, according to most Afghans, they mostly extort.

    You can't put all those U.S., allied, and Afghan troops on the Pakistan border, particularly since the Taliban have spread their attacks to formally "pacified" areas of the country, in the north, east and west. And. in any case, the Afghan Army is still training (although it is curious that while the Taliban soldiers receive virtually no training, they are able to hold their own in battle with the most sophisticated and well-trained military force in the world).

    For arguments sake, let's say you could put a mix of 40,000 troops on the border, a border of massive mountains and deep valleys, a border filled with passes, trade routes and goat trails, a border that stretches 1,510 miles. With 20,000 troops, the British Army could not seal the 224-mile border between southern and Northern Ireland.

    The Taliban are mostly Pashtun, although not all Pashtun are Taliban. Polls indicate that about 12 percent to 15 percent of the Pashtun support the group. But the vast majority of Pashtuns recognize that sooner or later, the Kabul government and the U.S. will have to sit down and make a deal with the Taliban for some kind of coalition government. The lack of support for the insurgents does not mean the Pashtun will betray them. Since the Haqqanis are Pashtun, they can cross this border virtually anyplace, and, as the last few weeks have illustrated, the Taliban and their allies can strike almost anywhere.

    The problem with all this nonsense about "thickening the Afghan border" is not the "senior military officials"— generals lie, it's part of their job description—but that the New York Times would print this blather.

    It is not only silly, it feeds dangerous illusions at a time when clear thinking is called for. As Gareth Porter of IPS News reports, "The Taliban leadership is ready to negotiate peace with the United States right now if Washington indicates its willingness to provide a timetable for a complete withdrawal." According to Porter, the Taliban are willing to break any ties with al-Qaeda and won't even demand a withdrawal date. The only thing they will insist upon are no U.S. bases.

    So why isn't the Times reporting this breakthrough instead of peddling foolishness?

    Conn Hallinan can be read at dispatchesfromtheedgeblog.wordpress.com

    Wising Up On Afghanistan
    Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

    A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

    For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


    The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

    -Ferishta, 1560–1620

  • #2
    I think they are talking about mining it up again Admin Khan
    It's enough that I know, Our time had a home, In your heart..Was a place..But the glass always breaks..

    Comment


    • #3
      I think they are packing up Talal. No more money for Pakistan.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Talal View Post
        I think they are talking about mining it up again Admin Khan
        Pashtuns on both sides of the imaginary line won't tolerate it. Musharaff proposed it, and both sides voiced anger. You can't divide families and tribes. When it comes to Pashtuns, institutions like the Pakistani Army or the Afghan Army don't play a pivotal role at all. They can hardly exert any influence. History has taught us that even way before Pakistan existed, no one has succeeded in subduing ethnic Afghan[Pashtuns] . So talking about mining is nothing but a fantasy. Good luck telling a Pashtun from Quetta, who works in Kandahari Bazaar[a market in Quetta] that he needs some sort of identification to visit Kandahar to buy his Gharey from the villages. Besides, mining was proposed and it was local PKMAP and ANP leaders that said the good old fashioned: "NO". This isn't like Punjab, or Tajikistan where a Punjabi from Lahore has no affiliation with a Punjabi from Amritsar, or how a Tajik from Helmand has nothing to do with a Tajik from Dushanbe. Durand line is different, and that's exactly why the Army is scared to initiate any operation in the Pashtun heartlands, not only will it fail miserably, but it will fuel Pashtun nationalism - something Islamabad is seriously afraid of.
        Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

        A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

        For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


        The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

        -Ferishta, 1560–1620

        Comment


        • #5
          ************************************
          Last edited by Yaggi; 01-23-2016, 01:25 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Yaggi View Post
            problem is most pakistani never been that side of country
            so they thinking that this border is like border with punjab
            there big difference between two sides of pakistani borders
            Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post
            Pashtuns on both sides of the imaginary line won't tolerate it. Musharaff proposed it, and both sides voiced anger. You can't divide families and tribes. When it comes to Pashtuns, institutions like the Pakistani Army or the Afghan Army don't play a pivotal role at all. They can hardly exert any influence. History has taught us that even way before Pakistan existed, no one has succeeded in subduing ethnic Afghan[Pashtuns] . So talking about mining is nothing but a fantasy. Good luck telling a Pashtun from Quetta, who works in Kandahari Bazaar[a market in Quetta] that he needs some sort of identification to visit Kandahar to buy his Gharey from the villages. Besides, mining was proposed and it was local PKMAP and ANP leaders that said the good old fashioned: "NO". This isn't like Punjab, or Tajikistan. Where a Punjabi from Lahore has no affiliation with a Punjabi from Amritsar, or how a Tajik from Helmand has nothing to do with a Tajik from Dushanbe. Durand line is different, and that's exactly why the Army is scared to initiate any operation in the Pashtun heartland, not only will it fail miserably, but it will fuel Pashtun nationalism.
            Yeah, that's what I said above.

            You see Yaggi, the problem is most of these users have not visited the local areas. When they walk around Spin boldak, they will quickly realize that there is nothing Islamabad or Kabul can do to control these people. Even in Karachi, Islamabad can barely do anything. You have MQM, a gang, running the show and chopping off the heads of innocent Pashtuns. In fact, Altaf Hussain recently said "He will die rather than losing the war to terrorists". Even senior Pashtun leaders realized that he was inadvertently referring to Pukhtuns. When most people actually walk around the rural areas of Pashtunkhwa, Waziristan and Southern Afghanistan, they will quickly realize that "mining" is nothing but a sweet dream. I guess some Pakistani politicians really need to go back and replace their fake degrees, because if it was as easy as "mining the borders" then the US would've adopted that policy a decade ago.
            Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

            A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

            For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


            The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

            -Ferishta, 1560–1620

            Comment


            • #7
              I can pull out many sources that will further solidify my claims, but let's stick to Pakistani sources, that way I can appear "unbiased":

              Let's see what Pak Tribune had to say about this:

              Pakistan has recently announced it will fence the joint border and plant mines along the 2,500 kilometers long border to put an end to accusations by the Afghan government of letting Taliban militants to cross the border and conduct attacks in Afghanistan.

              The elders have warned they would destroy the fence and take out the mines if Pakistan goes ahead with the fencing and mining plan
              .

              Residents on both sides of the border believe that Pakistan want to stamp the Durand Line as an official border line between Afghanistan and Pakistan. This, they say, will further separate the one community of Pashtuns who have already been divided.

              Maulvi Abdul Rahim, an elder and religious scholar in Koot frontier district of Nangrahar considers Pakistans action a drama, saying that Pakistan want to trick the world with this action.

              He told Pajhwok Afghan News that Pashtuns are not those cowards to let others do such things.

              He added: "We have tight relations with Tera people of North Western Frontier Province (NWFP) of Pakistan and we visit homes of each others regularly as we are part of one community, but Pakistan wants to split this community."

              Malik Katawar Khan, resident of Dor Baba district of Nangrahar says that the British and Russians, despite their serious efforts for separation of Pashtuns of the two sides, failed to fulfill their goal in the very past.

              He said if Pakistan succeeds in the plan, Pashtuns will demine the region and will destroy the fence.

              Katawar Khan told this Pajhwok Afghan News: "Pashtuns now know that they must be united or will be demolished from the world map."

              Malik Azizullah Shinwari, a tribal elder of Shinwari district says that Pakistani President Pervez Musharaf wants to catch Pashtuns of his side and separate them from the Afghanistan's side by all tricks he know.

              He told Pajhwok Afghan News the current war in Afghanistan and operation in tribal areas of Pakistan are launched to demolish Pashtuns.

              "Mining and fencing the border is a Punjabi conspiracy, and we are sure it will fail," said Shinwari.

              He said that they have contacted the tribal elders of the other side of the border and agreed that they will never let Pakistan to mine and fence the border.

              He threatened if Pakistan enforces its decision their tribe will again strike as they did in British colony.

              Rasul Mohammad Tanai, an elder of Tanai tribe in Khost province, considers this action of Pakistan as a game and says that Pakistan wants to impose and give official stamp to the Durand line. He said that Pashtuns have already been split even two village and two families were split.

              Ramazan Kuchi, a nomad from Alisher frontier district, said that even if the Afghan government accepted the Pakistan's suggestion, the local community would never accept.

              "If Pakistan truly enforces their decision the regional people will strike and will even destroy the present line," he said.

              Masoum Jan a tribal leader of Aryub district of Paktia province said that Pakistan will never succeed in its separation plan. He said the Pakistani government should ban the terrorist sources inside Pakistan instead of mining and fencing the border.

              Hamyaon Chamkani, a tribal leader in Chamkani district, said that if Pakistan enforces its plans, it will further inflame the existing anger and hatred of Afghans towards Pakistan.

              Allahnoor Noorzai, a tribal leader in Arghistan district of Kandahar province, said Pakistan want to distract international by such actions.

              He said that Pakistan is under pressure by the international community to ban the terror training center so they would distract the internationals by fencing and mining the border.

              Similarly on the other side of the border, tribal residents oppose the mining and fencing plan of Pakistani government and said that they will never let their government do so.

              Malik Akbar Khan, a resident of Kurram Agency's Parachinar area told Pajhwok this news agency through telephone that the tribal leaders have already convened a meeting on this issue and decided not to let the government enforce its plan.

              He added that they will consult with other tribal elders and then will start serious negotiation with the government on the issue.

              Malik Hamid Hussien a Shia tribal elder in Parachinar considers such action of Pakistan impossible and said that this is the land of Pashtun and without their choice no one can take any action.

              Also, Haji Gul Khan Achakzai, a tribal elder in Baluchistan state of Pakistan rejects Pakistan plan on mining and fencing the border.

              He said: "We do not accept the present border line that split Pashtuns into two parts and we know that the areas we reside on both sides of the border belong only to Pashtuns and the Pakistani government can not claim its ownership."

              A Baloch tribal elder in Helmand province of Afghanistan, Haji Mawla Bakhsh, condemned the fencing and mining plan of the Pakistani government as an action aimed at occupation of lands of Pashtuns.

              Pashtuns on both sides of Pak-Afghan border show opposition to fencing plan
              Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

              A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

              For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


              The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

              -Ferishta, 1560–1620

              Comment


              • #8
                Actually Admin Khan initially it was the Afghan government and ISAF that fenced about 35km of the border, Pakistan Army Isn't planning on minning the entire border that would be a very costly project instead they might go after certain areas where there are open routes for militant infiltration

                There is a lot going in Pakistan in terms of reorganization of the federal structure they actually might create upto 13 provinces from the current four provinces, if that does happen then it might become more easy to manage the border
                It's enough that I know, Our time had a home, In your heart..Was a place..But the glass always breaks..

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Talal View Post
                  Actually Admin Khan initially it was the Afghan government and ISAF that fenced about 35km of the border,
                  I think I specifically said that Kabul and Islamabad, both, have no leverage over the ethnic Afghans on both sides of the line. They can possibly chop a few heads off and fence 35KM, that might sound plausible - but do you honestly think that fenced area is being implemented as a border? Let me give you a hint: "NO!". It's theatrics 101, or intro to theatrics, it shows the world Kabul and Islamabad are doing something. Both Kabul and Islamabad do not represent Pashtuns. So for you to say it was Kabul who initiated it, or it was Musharraf who proposed it[which he did by the way] means nothing since it holds no water, because who ever comes up with this genius idea[sarcasm] need's a good old fashioned "gill".

                  Pakistan Army Isn't planning on minning the entire border that would be a very costly project instead they might go after certain areas where there are open routes for militant infiltration
                  It's not that it's costly, that's just one factor of the coin. It's that Pakistani Army is not capable of maintaining a border against 50million ethnic Afghans, strong.


                  There is a lot going in Pakistan in terms of reorganization of the federal structure they actually might create upto 13 provinces from the current four provinces, if that does happen then it might become more easy to manage the border
                  Even if they make 45 provinces, if Pukhtuns/Afghans are not happy, or if they dare to implement a border, it will backfire and Islamabad knows that very well. It's the "Singaya" that unites us. Like I said, this isn't an ordinary line. There are families meters away that belong to powerful tribes that won't tolerate it. If you ever visit Spin boldak, or any nearby areas, good luck telling them "a mined border" is coming soon. If anyone in their right mind thinks a Noorzai of Quetta, or a Achakzai of Karachi will tolerate a border then they must open a book and study Pukhto 101. As you and I both know, Pakistan will put up all sort of dance shows to the US to get those Franklins. Musharaff attempted to put up "let's mine it dance" but it failed miserably, as the aforementioned article explicitly proves to both you and I. Just because you see a few Pukhtuns with a Pakistani or Afghan flag doesn't mean Pashtuns are all of a sudden loyal to each country. History has shown us that when the Persians dared to conquer a Pashtun heartland[Kandahar]Pashtuns retaliated and not only conquered and ruled them, but they even lit fire to one of their prominent cities[Isfahan]. And you and I both know what ethnic Afghans did to the British three times when they dared to show aggression. Islamabad is wise, it wouldn't dare mess with an Afghans temper on the Durrand. Just yesterday I met someone from Swat, and before I even finished my "roghbar" he opened his mouth and said "I hope you don't follow the media, because just always know that we are one Pashtun".
                  Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                  A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                  For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                  The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                  -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    "Pashtuns now know that they must be united or will be demolished from the world map."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ^ While you are very passionate about this issue Admin Khan and I do respect that but the ground realities have drastically changed in these past 60 years. I do not wish to entertain another debate on Durrand since I think this issue has been discussed to death and I think there is even a stereotype for the people in Afghanistan who support it "ethno-nationalists" or something anyways I'll keep my few points short

                      Sir first the second article you posted is half a decade old, the situation in tribal areas is vastly different now then it was back in 2006. However I did see one interesting thing in this article

                      Pajhowk, the afghan news agency that wrote this report up said that tribal on both sides of Durrand condemned this decision to fence the border and later it goes in detail to mention exactly the people who condemned it. I am writing up a brief list

                      Maulvi Abdul Rahim, an elder and religious scholar in Koot frontier district of Nangrahar


                      Malik Katawar Khan, resident of Dor Baba district of Nangrahar

                      Malik Azizullah Shinwari, a tribal elder of Shinwari district

                      Rasul Mohammad Tanai, an elder of Tanai tribe in Khost province


                      Ramazan Kuchi, a nomad from Alisher frontier district


                      Masoum Jan a tribal leader of Aryub district of Paktia


                      Hamyaon Chamkani, a tribal leader in Chamkani district

                      Allahnoor Noorzai, a tribal leader in Arghistan district of Kandahar

                      Malik Akbar Khan- resident - Parachinar

                      Malik Hamid Hussien a Shia tribal elder in Parachinar

                      Haji Gul Khan Achakzai, a tribal elder in Baluchistan

                      Haji Mawla Bakhsh - Helmand


                      So let's tally up and heck even call it a poll


                      A total of 7 tribal elders and two residents from Afghanistan were in a uproar about it, whereas in Pakistan only two elders and a resident quipped ? The reason I said this was interesting is because again it goes to show that Durrand is really an issue among the few ethno-nationalists in Afghanistan and not so much in Pakistan

                      If that wasn't the case than explain to me 1962. Now according to the Loy Afghanistan view that should have been a clean sweep, I mean a Pashtun majority president goes marching in to liberate the Pashtun lands ..shouldn't the pashtuns in Pakistan have welcomed them with open arms ? Ofcourse it was quite the opposite..what happened in Bajaur to Afghan military which was an organized force at that time is no small blot

                      Besides that one can debate endlessly but I don't see hundreds of people marching in FATA and Peshawar for Loy Afghanistan instead in two weeks I would urge you to pay close attention to August 14th celebrations


                      In the end I will leave you with this article, it is very recent two three months old I think..I am quoting this article here because the author has a very balanced approach unlike your Army Chief who seems to be under the impression his army which is struggling to run one prison and a province should have total control of all areas upto Karachi..I have been a member at this forum for a while and it's usually that people start hurling personal insults at you when you even try to state what the ground realities are..Half of the population in Afghanistan is alienated with other half their efforts to seek dominance have turned a gem of a country literally into a graveyard..yet what is sad to see is that the obsession still lies to the other side of Durrand.


                      ANALYSIS: The question of independent Pashtunistan —Musa Khan Jalalzai

                      The Afghan ruler neither offered the Pashtuns of Pakistan the citizenship of Afghanistan nor gave them the right of vote. They never accepted them as Afghans nor allowed them to visit Afghanistan without a Pakistani passport

                      Relations between Pakistan and Afghanistan have remained strained due to the Durand Line dispute. Successive Afghan governments refused to recognise the Durand Line as a legitimate border between the two countries. The borderland is predominantly inhabited by Pashtun tribes who were divided by then Afghan ruler Abdul Rahman Khan’s wrong decision in 1893. This issue has been a major cause of strained relations between the two states. Neither Pakistan nor Afghanistan has realised the importance of the other.

                      Afghan rulers followed the policy of confrontation towards Pakistan, while Pakistan, since its independence, has failed to evolve a pragmatic Afghan policy. The country followed a predominantly pro-American policy for the last 60 years. Since the creation of Pakistan, both the states have interfered in each other’s internal affairs time and again, but there has never been a turn to full-scale war. In 1971, during the Bangladesh war, the Afghan security forces were guarding Pakistan’s border. Similarly, Pakistan helped the people of Afghanistan during the Soviet intervention in 1979.

                      The border dispute between Pakistan and Afghanistan was created by Great Britain in 1893 in exchange for arms and cash offered to the Afghan ruler Amir Abdur Rahman Khan. The perception that Amir Abdur Rahman was under pressure to accept the Durand Line Treaty and had no freedom to negotiate with Great Britain, forcing him to sign the agreement, is totally wrong.

                      Abdur Rahman was in a hurry and willingly demanded the settlement of the border dispute with British India and asked for sending a British Mission to Kabul in October 1888 and again in 1893. Sir Mortimer Durand was welcomed with a royal reception. Amir Abdur Rahman was well satisfied with the outcome of his negotiations with Sir Mortimer Durand. As Britain came to know that there was no proper discussion between Balochistan and Afghanistan on the Durand Agreement, it continued to reaffirm the Durand Line Agreement with the Afghan rulers from 1901 to 1973.

                      Now, coming to the legality of the Durand Line as an internationally recognised border, Afghanistan has been adamantly denying the legitimacy of the Durand Line since 1947, while Pakistan accepts it as a legitimate border between the two states. Pakistan says that its legitimacy was confirmed for the first time by the statement of Mr Noel Baker, secretary of state for the Commonwealth in the British House of Commons on June 30, 1950. Moreover, in 1956, the ministerial council of the Southeast Asia Treaty Organisation (SEATO) in a Karachi meeting also reaffirmed the recognition of the Durand Line as the internationally recognised boundary between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

                      In 1949, when the Afghan national assembly rejected all treaties signed with Britain, including the Durand Line agreement, the people of Waziristan did not react warmly. They were now settled and enjoying a happy life within the boundaries of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Moreover, the humiliation of their tribal elders at the hands of Abdur Rahman and his colleagues in Kabul and their expulsion from Afghanistan forcefully ensured that neither the people of Waziristan nor Khyber Pakhtunkhwa show specific interest in an independent Pashtunistan. In their understanding, this is the political game Afghan and Pakistani rulers have been enjoying since 1947.

                      In the 1960s and 1970s, Afghanistan extended the demand of independent Pashtunistan to some areas of Balochistan, but political parties and tribal chiefs reacted in a normal way. No Afghan ruler has sincerely responded to the feelings of the Pashtun tribes across the border. Zahir Shah once decided to make a compromise on Pashtunistan and enter into a confederation agreement with Pakistan. President Daud was willing to settle the issue with Pakistan between 1977 and 1978 during his visit to Pakistan. He visited Muhammad Ziaul Haq with this spirit and invited him to settle the border issue forever. In 1979, President Nur Muhammad Tarakai agreed to give up the claim of independent Pashtunistan provided Pakistan cut off support to the Afghan mujahideen groups. President Tarakai was a politician and was well aware of the consequences of military confrontation with Pakistan.

                      President Dr Muhammad Najibullah once told my uncle Khan Jahan Khan that he cannot fire a single bullet towards Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and cannot hurt his Pashtun sisters, mothers and brothers. But the Afghan ruler neither offered the Pashtuns of Pakistan the citizenship of Afghanistan nor gave them the right of vote. They never accepted them as Afghans nor allowed them to visit Afghanistan without a Pakistani passport. This is the secret story of ‘independent Pashtunistan’ that Afghan rulers developed dramatically.

                      My understanding is that this was just a political game the Afghan and Pakistani rulers played for protecting their political interests at the expense of the poor Pashtun people. Today’s backward and ethnically divided Afghanistan still demands the return of its land and people its ruler sold for nothing, but the international community now recognises the Durand Line as the Pak-Afghan legitimate border

                      Some Afghan leaders are of the opinion that the Durand Agreement had a life of 100 years, and, as such, lost its legal standing in 1993. My answer to them is that the present-day Afghanistan has not been able to control its territory or extend the writ of the government to the whole of the country, how can it possibly manage the human, economic, political, health and food security of the people of both Afghanistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa?

                      Pashtuns in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa are not willing to join Afghanistan or struggle for an independent Pashtunistan. They understand they will not be able to manage an independent state economically. They have sympathy with their Afghan brothers but do not want to join them as we saw that the internally displaced persons (IDPs) of Pakistan preferred to remain in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa instead of taking refuge in Afghanistan. An independent Pashtunistan state is an economic impossibility and will be more dangerous for Afghanistan than for Pakistan.

                      Finally, I must suggest that both Pakistan and Afghanistan must not allow the Durand Line to become a flashpoint. They should open-heartedly accept the independent status of each other. As most of the Asian frontiers and borders have not been demarcated by Asians themselves, but by colonial powers, therefore nobody can insist on the inviolability of any frontier, including the Durand Line. The Great Game and military confrontations between Russia and Great Britain caused the fixing of the Durand Line, which brought the Khyber Pass and Quetta under British-Indian control. In summation, Pakistan and Afghanistan as two Muslim neighbouring states must understand the importance of each other.
                      It's enough that I know, Our time had a home, In your heart..Was a place..But the glass always breaks..

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                      • #12
                        Talal, you have not refuted anything I said. What I said is sort of common sense and obvious to Pashtuns only. Have you visited the line? I highly doubt it. You see, you keep on bringing the same issue up all over again. You somehow assume that it's only the Afghans on the other side that are wiggling their tail and that's absolutely false. If you do a quick google search, you will realize that it was the 2 largest Pashtun based parties, the ANP and PKMAP that were the first to oppose it. In fact, I can show you hundreds of videos of Pashtuns on the other line that state what I said earlier. Oh, interestingly enough they are even videos that have hundreds of Pashtuns who inhabit modern day Pakistan that chant what I said earlier. They even have meetings in foreign countries to display their oneness. Remember, same tribe,culture,language, etc.

                        Oh, and no where and I mean no where did I say I am an Afghan national. So I'm not sure what you meant by the Afghan chief argument. I'll repeat what I said earlier agan, you can never impose a border on the line because the same tribes are on both sides and they marry within their respective tribes. Just because you see a few Pashtuns dancing on August 14 on your TV SET doesn't mean all of a sudden both sides have forgotten about each other. That's a logical fallacy, a pretty obvious one too.

                        Nice discussing this with you, nonetheless. You need to visit the area and interact with them to have a better understanding. Pashtuns are not loyal to Kabul or Islamabad. They, for the most part, regard both governments as illegitimate. And another logical fallacy on your part is your assumption of the 'Loy Afghanistan' theory not once did I imply that that is what they wanted. If you have time, please carefully read my post again cause it answered the above in detail. Just because you see a few Pashtuns in Pakistan or Afghanistans government doesn't mean they are ultra-loyal to the country. Like I said, Islamabad wouldn't dare impose a border cause it will fuel ethnic nationalism.
                        Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                        A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                        For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                        The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                        -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I cannot refute that which you refuse to see .. And yes I am famiar with the ground realities I have been to these areas, intact I was there just last year and have been going pretty much every other year before that .. A border can't divide people yes, and Pakistan stands to gain more from normalized relations with Afghanistan however the problem isn't the division of people, for Pakistan the problem is mutual respect vis-a-vis its established borders..We just like any other nation cannot at absolutely no price comprise our territorial integrity..Who these areas belonged to 1947 that is no concern of mine, after '47 they became my business .. The good is that a huge majority of Afghans realizes that now than they did 60 years

                          YouTube videos don't mount to much in a country of over 180 million..There are ofcourse people who feel passionate about Loy Afghanistan just as much as you do but I have yet to come across a Pashtun outside this forum who feels that way

                          I am just stating the facts, even members here albeit a few will atleast acknowledge this ground reality
                          It's enough that I know, Our time had a home, In your heart..Was a place..But the glass always breaks..

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Talal View Post
                            I cannot refute that which you refuse to see .. And yes I am famiar with the ground realities I have been to these areas, intact I was there just last year and have been going pretty much every other year before that .. A border can't divide people yes, and Pakistan stands to gain more from normalized relations with Afghanistan however the problem isn't the division of people, for Pakistan the problem is mutual respect vis-a-vis its established borders..We just like any other nation cannot at absolutely no price comprise our territorial integrity..Who these areas belonged to 1947 that is no concern of mine, after '47 they became my business .. The good is that a huge majority of Afghans realizes that now than they did 60 years

                            YouTube videos don't mount to much in a country of over 180 million..There are ofcourse people who feel passionate about Loy Afghanistan just as much as you do but I have yet to come across a Pashtun outside this forum who feels that way

                            I am just stating the facts, even members here albeit a few will atleast acknowledge this ground reality
                            Your ground reality is based on what you want to see, and what you wish to see. I am giving you a logical argument that spins around common sense. Give it another read. If you have the same people, same tribe, same culture, same language, same families living meters away, you can not impose a border. Try to analyze the context of Durrand, it was intentionally set up to divide Pashtuns, and today nearly every Pashtun knows that since they have common sense. And I'm glad Islamabad is aware of that, because once again, it was PASHTUN parties of PAKISTAN that said:NO. So don't undermine that as 'just regular videos'. These are senior politicians that voiced staunch opposition to Musharrafs plans. No one said they want to join Afghanistan. No one said they love Pakistan either. One thing they do love is each other, and the families they have, which are fortunately on both sides of the line. You, or Islamabad can't change that. There is nothing Pakistan or Afghanistan can do. If Islamabad uses force, we all know how Pashtun takes care of their enemies.

                            Even the west knows that you can't impose any sort of border on people or rule on these people. And for the rest, I am just repeating myself all over again. Whether it's your country or not doesn't matter, that's an emotional argument. What matters is Pashtuns/Ethnic Afghans dominate the line, and boy oh boy they will never tolerate any rule or forced border that divides their tribes and families. There is a reason why Pakistan hasn't tried it's luck, although the failed attempt of Musharraf did backfire terribly, by it's 'own' Pashtun figures.

                            And the whole members argument also backfires because whether you know this or not but the majority from Pakistan here are against the state. Many members are busy with their studies but I'm sure you know the list better than me. So it's certainly the opposite of what you said.

                            Enjoy your Ramadan.
                            Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                            A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                            For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                            The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                            -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              admin khan you are right, my family back home in kandahar my cuzans husbands family live across the border and they are alwys visiting each other and ino they would be against this "border" being setup couse at the moment they dont really recognize a border they just see it as pashtun lands which they can move thru freely.
                              Ka Makh De Rana Hear Sho No Jehan Ba Rana Hear She
                              Ka Nom De Rana Hear Sho No Khpal Zan Ba Rana Her She[

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