US-led raid kills 16 Afghan civilians

[BarakzaiAbdali]

For that matter ChemEs are much more lucrative and can enter the field these days immediatly with BEs alone or the simple augmentation of their BE with an ME. The only utility of that degree (a Chem E PhD) is within academia... playing tiddlywinks designing "bioreactors" give me a break. Were you a capable engineer youd have been in industry lacing stents for me long ago with Sirolimus or Tacrolimus etc. When I was with J&J the best and brighest ChemEs had little beyond the masters degree if that. The PhDs were relegated to the archaic halls of academia pertending to generate results.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

However, all of this back and forth is just a pissing contest... its of little utility and your goal is to distract readers from the lackluster merits of your arguments. Until you decisively deal with Dr. Kaker by saying more than "hes wrong because hes wrong" and until you generate some evidence for plethora of other ridiculous claims you are about as useful to us as donkeys in the Alps.

[MostafaM]

No lol, because your degrees dont matter. Do you know me? I would hesitate if I were you.

I like the transition from Vacation ---> masters ---> PhD.

To me a PhD is a rather useless degree, we MDs get them when we want to waste time. We MDs who did undergraduate work as electrical engineers also recall how useless our TAs (i.e. the PhD students) were. Welcome to the world of slave labor my friend.

For that matter Michael Scheuer has a PhD as well, and work experience dealing directly with Bin Ladin. So if I had to choose bewteen a failed chemical engineer who shouldnt be near a petrol plant versus scheuer... I think Ill take my chances with the latter. Wouldnt you Comrade Walker?

Your theory of the Arab Afghans somehow taking the Afghan population hostage is absurd. Its like going to Alabama and claiming that the religious population down there is nonexistent and that secret Tennesseans are infiltrating Alabama.

For that matter the numbers dont add up. But for someone who invents alternate histories were every pashtun man is Brad Pitt and every Pashtun woman is Angelina Jolie, what more can we expect?

1 You got that wron: Master----> Vacation ----> PhD

2. Whatever a PhD is for you, I will be employed at a technical university, do research and do some sort of teachning in my field, too.
But it´s not important what I do. It is important to know why you feel the need to play that down althought you dont care as you say?

3. Chemical Engineers work in various fields. I am not affiliated with Petroleum Engineering but with multiphase reactor design and simulation.

4. I never stated that "Arab Afghans" take anyone hostage.
Their presence is obsolete on an ideological basis (internationalist islam).
You lack intellect to understand the real point here.

[MostafaM]

For that matter ChemEs are much more lucrative and can enter the field these days immediatly with BEs alone or the simple augmentation of their BE with an ME. The only utility of that degree (a Chem E PhD) is within academia... playing tiddlywinks designing "bioreactors" give me a break. Were you a capable engineer youd have been in industry lacing stents for me long ago with Sirolimus or Tacrolimus etc. When I was with J&J the best and brighest ChemEs had little beyond the masters degree if that. The PhDs were relegated to the archaic halls of academia pertending to generate results.

Stop speaking out of your ass.

I have work experience after doing by Bachelor.

And yes you are right, my objective is to go into research and have an academic career. What´s your problem with that?

And you are the one who is pointing out on NOT being envious?

Come on, you are childish and boring.

[MostafaM]

However, all of this back and forth is just a pissing contest... its of little utility and your goal is to distract readers from the lackluster merits of your arguments. Until you decisively deal with Dr. Kaker by saying more than "hes wrong because hes wrong" and until you generate some evidence for plethora of other ridiculous claims you are about as useful to us as donkeys in the Alps.

Dr Kakar made a reference to the Taliban ear of 1996-2001.

Not to the time after 2003 when the Taliban turned into a force of suicide bombers and killers of their own people.

I have tackled this of your arguements before but you refuse to answer.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

1 You got that wron: Master----> Vacation ----> PhD

2. Whatever a PhD is for you, I will be employed at a technical university, do research and do some sort of teachning in my field, too.
But it´s not important what I do. It is important to know why you feel the need to play that down althought you dont care as you say?

3. Chemical Engineers work in various fields. I am not affiliated with Petroleum Engineering but with multiphase reactor design and simulation.

4. I never stated that "Arab Afghans" take anyone hostage.
Their presence is obsolete on an ideological basis (internationalist islam).
You lack intellect to understand the real point here.

Good Im glad the pissing contest is over because we can refocus the discussion. The issue here is that you are denying the population their inherent right to self determination. You are attempting to equate Najibullah with an anointed messiah like role and Hamid Karzai with a savior like role. To mitigate this you then go and say: Well its Islamism versus Secularism and both are imperialist doctrines. Once again, its a useless rejoinder without merit. As I have definitively shown, religiosity and its mobilization, similar to how religiosity can mobilize the south of the US to supply man power to a budding Judeo-Christian-Islamic conflict, is an inherent and historical trait of Pashtun society. Is it beneficial? Perhaps not? Is it understandable? Sure, if you have spent anytime in a kalaay. Is it more indigenous than the ideology you are attempting to impose: ABSOLUTELY.
Does imposing your ideology cause is to progress or digress? Very probably the latter. American society had its own Taliban society in the Massachussetts bay. Their grand ulema, Nathaniel Hawthorne's great great grandfather hung and burned women in the droves. There was no imposer or outside interference... society was allowed to reach its own equilibrium.
Each time one of you posers comes along and urges an ideology be hoisted on our people you cause them to digress and radicalize.
Just as Iran had its mad mullah phase and it went from Khomenei to Khatami when left alone and then reradicalized when America started prodding and poking it, toward Ahmedinjad... most societies have built in response mechanisms to dealing with invaders. History more than adequately shows that religiosity is an inherent trait... that is not to say they are Muhammad or Umar incarnates and that they practice perfectly.
A better similitude is that of the southern Baptist preacher and the local Alabaman.... he may drink, he may brawl, he may love Faith Hill and country women, but when the pulpit calls him he mobilizes.

[graveyardofempires]

wonder why our dear shayesta is not here to clean this person's comments which is full of it.

[MostafaM]

Good Im glad the pissing contest is over because we can refocus the discussion. The issue here is that you are denying the population their inherent right to self determination. You are attempting to equate Najibullah with an anointed messiah like role and Hamid Karzai with a savior like role. To mitigate this you then go and say: Well its Islamism versus Secularism and both are imperialist doctrines. Once again, its a useless rejoinder without merit. As I have definitively shown, religiosity and its mobilization, similar to how religiosity can mobilize the south of the US to supply man power to a budding Judeo-Christian-Islamic conflict, is an inherent and historical trait of Pashtun society. Is it beneficial? Perhaps not? Is it understandable? Sure, if you have spent anytime in a kalaay. Is it more indigenous than the ideology you are attempting to impose: ABSOLUTELY.
Does imposing your ideology cause is to progress or digress? Very probably the latter. American society had its own Taliban society in the Massachussetts bay. Their grand ulema, Nathaniel Hawthorne's great great grandfather hung and burned women in the droves. There was no imposer or outside interference... society was allowed to reach its own equilibrium.
Each time one of you posers comes along and urges an ideology be hoisted on our people you cause them to digress and radicalize.
Just as Iran had its mad mullah phase and it went from Khomenei to Khatami when left alone and then reradicalized when America started prodding and poking it, toward Ahmedinjad... most societies have built in response mechanisms to dealing with invaders. History more than adequately shows that religiosity is an inherent trait... that is not to say they are Muhammad or Umar incarnates and that they practice perfectly.
A better similitude is that of the southern Baptist preacher and the local Alabaman.... he may drink, he may brawl, he may love Faith Hill and country women, but when the pulpit calls him he mobilizes.

Which ideology did I represent here so far?

Can you quote me?

Or are you just too busy to listen to your own diarrhea of the mind?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Dr Kakar made a reference to the Taliban ear of 1996-2001.

Not to the time after 2003 when the Taliban turned into a force of suicide bombers and killers of their own people.

I have tackled this of your arguements before but you refuse to answer.

No your original supposition was that the Taliban and the Arab Afghans hoisted a completey foreign ideology on the Afghans as if they were all Judeo Christian and living in Californication. Its baffling how outof touch you are with reality.

Then you make an absurd point which is to compare the pre 2001 era with the current era where the data shows that for each suicide bomb that goes off the population blames the foreign presence as much if not more than the Taliban. Petreus himself lamented how difficult it is to spin the narrative in the southern Afghan basin due to the lack of communications/TVs/Computer Cafes. I can provide you with the direct evidence of these surveys as well. Would you like them?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Which ideology did I represent here so far?

Can you quote me?

Or are you just too busy to listen to your own diarrhea of the mind?

You have created a false choice of sorts:
You legitimize or equate a completely foreign ideology (secular westernism) and imposed morals that are foreign to a subset of morals that have always been within the Pashtun population (religiosity). Whereas GVOE makes completely legitimate points about how people, whether they be in Alabama or in Kandahar have the right to autonomously follow their chosen ideologies, you attempt to legitimize or equate two ideologies that are in no way equivalent for the rural Afghan.

[MostafaM]

No your original supposition was that the Taliban and the Arab Afghans hoisted a completey foreign ideology on the Afghans as if they were all Judeo Christian and living in Californication. Its baffling how outof touch you are with reality.

Please quote me!
My response contained the "Islamic ideology" arguement, TOO, but your reference about Kakar was wrong in that context.

The mutation of the Taliban after 2001 is clear and can´t be compared to their behaviour prior to 2001.
I am definitly sure the Taliban didn´t use any kind of suicide bombs in the times of the civil war.

Then you make an absurd point which is to compare the pre 2001 era with the current era where the data shows that for each suicide bomb that goes off the population blames the foreign presence as much if not more than the Taliban. Petreus himself lamented how difficult it is to spin the narrative in the southern Afghan basin due to the lack of communications/TVs/Computer Cafes. I can provide you with the direct evidence of these surveys as well. Would you like them?

Sources?
The population blames the foreign forces if a Taliban soldier blows himself off? I dont think so.

They may blame the foreigners for being in areas and directing Taliban fire to those areas. But that´s a whole different topic.

[unknownprince]

[QUOTE=BarakzaiAbdali;483798]No your original supposition was that the Taliban and the Arab Afghans hoisted a completey foreign ideology on the Afghans as if they were all Judeo Christian and living in Californication. Its baffling how outof touch you are with reality.

Then you make an absurd point which is to compare the pre 2001 era with the current era where the data shows that for each suicide bomb that goes off the population blames the foreign presence as much if not more than the Taliban.

Petreus himself lamented how difficult it is to spin the narrative in the southern Afghan basin due to the lack of communications/TVs/Computer Cafes. I can provide you with the direct evidence of these surveys as well. Would you like them?

No, this Mostafa will change the topic, and try to start talking about you.

[MostafaM]

You have created a false choice of sorts:
You legitimize or equate a completely foreign ideology (secular westernism) and imposed morals that are foreign to a subset of morals that have always been within the Pashtun population (religiosity). Whereas GVOE makes completely legitimate points about how people, whether they be in Alabama or in Kandahar have the right to autonomously follow their chosen ideologies, you attempt to legitimize or equate two ideologies that are in no way equivalent for the rural Afghan.

Where did I promote secular westernizm?

Can you quote me please or are you argueing for sake of argueing?

I promote the Jirga culture where parties come together to settle disputes.

A jirga does not consist of your Islamic Amir nor do islami ulama have any say there. Maybe that´s your problem with real Afghan traditions.

But I do not care how often and how long you dip your Mullacracy into everything.

Afghan culture is clear.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Here is the evidence:

"Although the UN report confirms what Canadian and U.S. military commanders have said for years – that the Taliban kill far more civilians – it also makes clear that Afghans blame foreign forces."

"There’s "a greater perception by the wider Afghan community that the presence of international forces is responsible for higher levels of insecurity, is the cause for greater numbers of civilian casualties regardless of the perpetrator, and that international forces act with impunity," says the report, jointly compiled and published annually by the UN and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission.

Blaming the U.S.-led foreign troops – after a decade of steadily worsening violence and scaled-up combat – isn’t only the view of ordinary Afghans. "Civilian casualties are a main cause of worsening the relationships between Afghanistan and the U.S.," an enraged Afghan President Hamid Karzai said after American attack helicopters killed nine young boys gathering firewood, the latest in a long series of gruesome mistakes that attract huge attention in and outside of Afghanistan. "People are tired of these things and apologies and condemnations are not healing any pain."

And by the way, I apologise and do not mean to malign your ChemE degree. As a fellow former engineer, I have only the deepest regard for academics. However, you pissed in a bucket at me, and I pissed back for good measure.

Lets keep the discussoin focused on the pertinent data here. Education teaches us to leave behind or shed our backgruond ideologies when interpreting the data. Many family members of mine are irrelgious and some of them actually agree with your ideology. Although I am not a paragon of Islamic or religious virtue, I ascribe to the rigth of Alabamans, Kandaharis, Wana denizens, Iranians, etc to make their mistakes and their own decisions and progress their own societies. What you fail to realize is that blatant attempts to squash or clamp down on religiosity only creates reactionarism and is counter productive. Not admitting the religious fabric to pashtun society is a mobilizer does a huge disservice to our progress as a people and sustains the war.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Where did I promote secular westernizm?

Can you quote me please or are you argueing for sake of argueing?

I promote the Jirga culture where parties come together to settle disputes.

A jirga does not consist of your Islamic Amir nor do islami ulama have any say there. Maybe that´s your problem with real Afghan traditions.

But I do not care how often and how long you dip your Mullacracy into everything.

Afghan culture is clear.

Oh really? Thats why in the quintiessential loya jirga Pir Sabir Shah, a religious figure, was the one to wind the patkaay and point to a young Sadozai Khan as our initial father figure? Pir Sabir remained the counsel of Ahmad Khan Sadozai subsequently Ahmad Shah Abdali.

Shows how much you know about the jirga. The jirga also varies form place to place. Certainly the masharaan are at times a tribal elder, secular componnet to the mix... but the outside influence or invader, as the TAC analysis shows, empowers the Mullah and is an immune system style response. Just as the body as the neutrophil cell and an army to response (at times its response is inflammatory or even detrimental) so too does the Pashtun society have its historical mobilization route.