US-led raid kills 16 Afghan civilians

[ScimitarXEdge]

You didn´t elaborate on the suicide bombin tactic.
Did we reach a common ground there?

you keep changing goal posts that's why. And no we did not, use of suicide bombing does not refute local support being significant

Then your opinion about their opinion is an opinion, too.
People who have a name in the field of military history do not agree with you and it doesn´t matter what you claim. Their works are regarded as standards in literature about guerilla warfare.

That's fine but then what use is using opinions as evidence.

Strategy and tactics are universal.
Their application needs to take regional aspects into account.

Not always some people are blind idiots, regardless even here there's clearly large scale support to make it happen.

Where do you live?

America

The southern parts of Afghanistan have changed from a malik-system into a strong-men system.
The only place where tribal system in it´s real meaning has maintained are areas like Ghazni, Wardag, Paktia, Paktika, Khost and the areas in FATA where tribal elders (speen gerey) als respected members of the tribe have a regulatory role.
No Pashtun who is armed to the teeth can be told by anyone which road to use.

The Maliks became the strongmen. Pacha Khan Zadran is a great example.

you're disproving your own argument, earlier you mentioned if the the locals didnt support the Mujahideen they wouldnt have been able to do anything. Now you're saying they could.

Thanks for defeating your own point.

The hot-bet insurgency areas like Kandahar etc. where Islamic rulers on the one side and warlords on the other side have taken controle and have sidelined the rule of the tribal councils of the old days, your talking doesn´t mean anything. Wali Karzai, a 49 year old drug-trafficer was the leader of whole southern Afghanistan. In the old days, no one would have greeted him on the streets.

There's a lot of hotbeds these days. Not just Qandahar, but even Qunduz

I do not know where you are from, but the Pashtuns I know don´t even follow their speen gereys if they don´t want it and no one can force them.

really because Pacha Khan Zadran is powerful. My dad is from Mouqur in Ghazni, but they had migrated from Qalat-i-Ghilzai . It seems the Masharan ae very powerful there.

My mom is Middle Eastern.

Yes, the Usbek diaspora located in Chahar Darra in the north provide sanctuaries for the Taliban. They are die-hard supporters of the Taliban.

Uzbeks in Afghanistan support Dostum......and you also contradict yourself in the next quote...

you're all over the map bacheesh.

In areas like Baghlan people have resorted to support the Taliban because there is a strong animosity between the pashtuns and other ethnicities there. The Taliban are exploiting that moment.

support is support.....they also seem to like how the Taliban deal with moral crimes too.









These are common knowledge.

There is no such thing. Both have the same ideology and objective. Even when South Waziristan was attacked, the "Pakistani Taliban" went to North Waziristan or Bajaur.

uh there is a such thing, Tehriki-Taliban is a dfferent group. They do have the same ideology but not precisely the same objective. One is uprising against Pakistani Government, other against imperial forces in Afghanistan.

1. Forward Base Chapman in Khost.

2. Gardez Air Base

America´s presence there is strong and robust. But they could do **** if the Taliban were welcome amongst the ordinary people. All your points so far are just cheap shots without any reference.

If that was true Pacha Khan Zadran would be pissed.

I was wrong, in Paktia there is insurgent activity; but it isnt just suicide bombs but also IEDs. Which confirm my statement, since locals are the ones who help facilitate these things

Haqqani himself is Zadran.
He was protected by his clan in 2001 when he left Afghanistan. After alot of attacks of his men and his Arab monkeys on ordinary people, even the Zadran broke with him.

another issue entirely.

Afghanistan as a settlement area of "Afghans" has been mentioned by Iranian historians. Safi wrote in his book "Tareekh-e Herat" about Afghans/Pashtuns and the area they live in. Afghanistan has been invaded but it´s not a fake creation like Pakistan. It has a historical background.

and all these references mention what dates? Probably past the 13th Century.

please confirm.

The US´s involvement isn´t older than Pakistans direct involvement. Pakistan´s support for a coup against the Daoud regime really shows how clueless you are. No US intervention has been proved prior to a Pakistani involvement

But British involvement in predates Pakistan and Britain and US are part of the same civilizational block.

case closed.

Your theories about imperial policies sound well-known to anyones ears.
They cannot change the fact that Afghanistan´s national identity and national interests have to be protected and defined.

well if it well known, no point in holding up their remnants of their constructs whether Afghanistan or Pakistan.

From your talking so far, you seem to back the so-called internationalist idea of the "Ummah", am I wrong?

That is correct. I realize this consciousness doesn't exist, but we will cultivate its existence by dissolving all nations from within.

Well, if that didn´t happen in the last 1400 years when NO imperial power was intervening, then it won´t happen in the future, too

But the imperial power intervening has shown us what happens when we dont unite....So now we realize our mistakes and will make it happen. United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Alliances shift daily.
Pakistan´s role as Chinas proxy against India is something China will never let go. They say that "Pakistan is China´s Israel", they will support Pakistan no matter what.

Your conclusions here are short sighted and naive.
Your internationalistic approach with an islamic branding on it is not an utopian and childish idea.
Internationalist ideologies have failed so far. Every history teacher could tell you that.

Internnationlism is happening under globalization, except it is imperial interntionalism. That had lots of success....but only because we fell for it.

China never significantly bank rolled Pakistan, China doesn't need Pakistan. It is disposable hence why it is a proxy

[MostafaM]

Nothing about Bactrians being Nomadic. Athough it says that Zardusht was Bactrian....but Bactrians were not Avestan speakers so this is bit of misnomer.

"...However, the Macedonian occupation of Sogdia and Bactria was not to be uncontested. Almost immediately after Alexander had decided to build a new city, called Alexandria Eschatê, 'the furthest Alexandria' (modern Khodzent), the Sogdians revolted, because they did not like urban settlements in their nomadic country...."

"...Many Bactrians sympathized with the insurrection, and Spitamenes knew how to exploit this...."

No it isn't proof of Proto Pashto existing for hundreds of years. It is only proof that Pashto evolved from OTHER languages.Key words here is OTHER languages. Which means Pashto didn't exist prior to something else evolving into it. Which means that they were NOT Pashtuns.

Source?

What you need to do is SHOW EVIDENCE and not invent something and claim it as "proof", When nothing even supports it.

We have Yaghnobi ...we have Soghdian ...we don't have evidence of Pashto.

Wrong.
We do not have any WRITTEN proof of Pashto.
But we know that complex languages with a distinct grammar, vocabulary etc. doesn´t come into existence over night. There must a proto-Pashto version although no proof has been found SO FAR!

What I'm saying is that just because these existed before Islam became predominant does not mean Pashto existed. Evidence of related languages is NOT I repeat NOT evidence of Pashto. You keep trying to deceptively weasal other languages and use some crafty manufactured jingo of "Proto Pashto". If by proto Pashto you mean "Soghdian" that is STILL not Pashto.

You STILL haven´t provided any source that would link PASHTO and ISLAM.

The proofs are the fact that only existing evidence of Pashtun culture, ethnicity and language only occur after the Islamic era when Islam had become the predominant religion of the region.

The only WRITTEN sources.
Stop masturbating at something that is not a real proof to your claims.
My example with the Aboriginis higlighted it.

badal (Hindus and Buddhists were non-violent and against badal)
Lashkar (Hindus and Buddhists were against warfare)
tor makh (even though Hindus and Buddhists forbade sexual immorality, they rarely penalized it so harshly)
Patrilineage (zai= bin)

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_war.asp (Hinduism and violence)
Ashoka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Hinduism and warfare)

List of Scheduled Tribes in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (the whole indian subcontinent is full of tribes and tribal systems aka patrilineage)

What evidence of Pashto from the middle or old era do we have to confirm that this is the case?

where is YOUR evidence for these being the datings? Or that this is what your reference implied?

We have research by Prof. Lorenz who attested that PARTS of Pata Khazana are authentic and that middle Pashto was spoken in the times of Amir Krror who lived as an historical figure around 700 AC.

He was from the Suri tribe, that would proof the presence of a tribal system that Soghdians and Bactrians had, too.

That's a very deceptive way to evade presenting evidence. since you know where the evidence is, You must find it and translate the relevant portions. Or it is hearsay.

Is there a university in your area?
Do they have a facility for Iranian studies?
Yes?
This book will be definitly among other books present at that library.
I am not your professor nor am I your nanny. I gave you the reference, please proof me wrong or as you may say " A LIAR" and present work that contradicts my views.

So you indicate that coins exist. Fine, I never doubted their existence. I'm asking what reference of their reference to the Mangal tribe is there.

Finding coins from Buddhist and Hindu eras from a location that a tribe never left, is a strong hint of that tribes pre-islamic nature.

that's the problem we dont know what amount is false, which isnt, or even if it's all false. That is why they're unreliable for the most part. Definitely NOT scientific. Science doesnt run on anecdotes.

Social sciences can´t be proven 100%.
Even natural sciences base on theories and models.

I'm the one who stressed the etymological research; you were the one who were originally trying to shrug it off.

Weren´t you telling me about the other member here Scythian and his field of study and the flaws of etymological research on finding similarities between words of different languages?
You have a chance to take your words back or be exposed as a liar here.

but there's no mention of fire in any reference about Mars
Mangala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You don´t even read the links I give to you. You are a lost case, my friend:

"...He is painted red or flame colour, four-armed, carrying a 'trident' (Sanskrit: trishūla), 'mace' (Sanskrit: gadā), 'lotus' (Sanskrit: Padma) and a 'spear' (Sanskrit: shūla). His 'mount' (Sanskrit: vahana) is a ram. He presides over 'Mangala-varam' (Tuesday).[2]..."

----> flame coulour

your confirmation also alludes to Turkic origins for the Mangal tribe

Could be! Research has do be done here!

But the difference is all the related languages in the vicinity of Pashto which predate Pashto have written languages.

The aboriginal languages dont have that same feature. Therefore for Pashto exist before Islam similar evidence should exist, just like it should for Soghdian and Avestan and Bactrian

Not neccessarily.
Languages that are spoken by people who live in remote areas usualy don´t have a written tradition. SO FAR nothing has been found.
Soghdian, Avestan and Bactrian were languages that were spoken close to the areas of the silk road. Yaghnobi was the lingua franca of the silk road, now only a few thousand people speak it

I would only trust research which I can access. I do trust research but you making a claim which you allege has support is not the same as research itself being demonstrated.

Is there a university in your area?
Do they have a facility for Iranian studies?
Yes?
This book will be definitly among other books present at that library.
I am not your professor nor am I your nanny. I gave you the reference, please proof me wrong or as you may say " A LIAR" and present work that contradicts my views.

Kabul was not inhabited by Pashtuns in 683

Source?

where is the authors evidence supporting that?

Foot notes!

[MostafaM]

you keep changing goal posts that's why. And no we did not, use of suicide bombing does not refute local support being significant

It does.
Otherwise other tactics like taking and holding area would be implemented.

This shows you have 0% knowledge of military engagement.

The Maliks became the strongmen. Pacha Khan Zadran is a great example.

you're disproving your own argument, earlier you mentioned if the the locals didnt support the Mujahideen they wouldnt have been able to do anything. Now you're saying they could.

Thanks for defeating your own point.

Pacha Khan was and is a drug trafficer.
Paktia´s sociaty looks down on people like him.
You may be a western educated Afghan who thinks that being a "pimp" is cool but "mordagaw" is not something that someone would take credit for in Afghanistan. The same for drug trafficers.

I said that the Mujahedin operated with the help of the people.
Without their will they would have been lost like any other guerilla movement in history of mankind.

Your one-sentence replies are just weak and expose your stupidity.

really because Pacha Khan Zadran is powerful. My dad is from Mouqur in Ghazni, but they had migrated from Qalat-i-Ghilzai . It seems the Masharan ae very powerful there.

So?

My mom is Middle Eastern.

My condolences!
That´s why you stick to your Islam-Pashtun-identity thingy without proving anything. I see.

Uzbeks in Afghanistan support Dostum......and you also contradict yourself in the next quote...

you're all over the map bacheesh.

Sorry, I was talking about the Usbek DIASPORA that fled Usbekistan because of the post-communist regime there. Many of there fighters escaped to Pakistan after 2001. You have no clue right but just wanna shoot some hot air?
That´s not fun, man. Chahar Darreh is there hotbed.
The German Army has a hard time with these fighters.

And stop this bacheesh. I am not used to farsi-street languages nor should a Pashtun-Arab guy like you communicate in a language not familiar to him.

uh there is a such thing, Tehriki-Taliban is a dfferent group. They do have the same ideology but not precisely the same objective. One is uprising against Pakistani Government, other against imperial forces in Afghanistan.

Some posts ago you were talking abou ancestral areas and common place bla bla, no you make differentiations that aren´t even obvious for themselves.
The boundaries between these groups is fluent. "Haqqani Network" is just a name. TTP also.
If there is a common ground on operational and organisational level, and on a ideological level, too, then everything is said.

I was wrong, in Paktia there is insurgent activity; but it isnt just suicide bombs but also IEDs. Which confirm my statement, since locals are the ones who help facilitate these things

Except for Arab fighters from the HN who blow themselves up, there were no larg-scale attacks on bases, convoys etc. in Paktia or Khost.

That is correct. I realize this consciousness doesn't exist, but we will cultivate its existence by dissolving all nations from within.

Ah, Comrade Boris!
I can assure you that you will be a witness to the death of your ideology.

But the imperial power intervening has shown us what happens when we dont unite....So now we realize our mistakes and will make it happen. United We Stand, Divided We Fall

I propagate that for all Pashtun tribes.
Internationalist ideologies are BS and haven´t been successfull in the history of mankind.

Internnationlism is happening under globalization, except it is imperial interntionalism. That had lots of success....but only because we fell for it.

Assimilation is not something that you can propagate because you have split identity between Pashtun and Arab.
Stop projecting your own complexes on Afghanistan.
Even during the Jihad, the Arab units were separate from that of the Afghans.


Internationalism was defeated ONCE in Afghanistan,
it will be the graveyard for an Arab conquest, too, as it was right at the beginning of the islami expansion.

[ScimitarXEdge]

"...However, the Macedonian occupation of Sogdia and Bactria was not to be uncontested. Almost immediately after Alexander had decided to build a new city, called Alexandria Eschatê, 'the furthest Alexandria' (modern Khodzent), the Sogdians revolted, because they did not like urban settlements in their nomadic country...."

"...Many Bactrians sympathized with the insurrection, and Spitamenes knew how to exploit this...."





Source?

nothing about Bactrians being Nomadic

and about Soghdian nomads

The earliest cultural layers, unearthed from stratigraphic exploratory trenches in the area of the Bukhara's Ark and Shakhristan, date from the middle of the first millennium B.C., or possibly the fourth or third century B.C. In the opinion of some, Bukhara was mentioned by Arian in connection with events which happened in 328 B.C. According to Arian, while in search of allies, Spitamen arrived at Bagi (or Gaby in another interpretation), an inaccessible place on the border between Soghdian-an land and the Scytho-Massaget country (Arian. IV, I 7, 4). This place is very likely Bukhara, since it was located on the outer rim of the Soghdian lands, beyond which lay only the desert, populated by the nomadic Scythians.

The Soghdians themelves were settled people, they're confusing Scythians for Soghdiaans.

"to conclude, the politicall and social conditions of the Soghdian society ere reflected in the settlement pattern in a very particular way. Life was concentrated inside the walls of the settlements and the expanion of the URBAN and RURAL structures went along with the building of extensive fortification. In addition to the city and village wlls the entire oasis was protected by long defense lines. In other words, Soghdian society, fragmented and exposed to constant pressure from the SURROUNDING nomads, could not provide substantial security beyond these fortifications"

source: History of Bukhara by Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Jaf'ar Narshakhi, p.162

Wrong.
We do not have any WRITTEN proof of Pashto.
But we know that complex languages with a distinct grammar, vocabulary etc. doesn´t come into existence over night. There must a proto-Pashto version although no proof has been found SO FAR!

Well lack of written proof demonstrates lack of linguial proof. There is no reason for Pashto to have been unrecorded language.

You're making a false dichotomy; not being there over night doesn't mean existing prior to the predominance of Islam in the region.

we will wait and see, maybe overzealous nationalist will invent some proof for us.

You STILL haven´t provided any source that would link PASHTO and ISLAM.

Because it goes without saying. ANY CONCRETE references of Pashtuns identify them as being Muslims. Now words like "Afghan"...and "Avaghan" and what not is too shaky as this didn't always refer to Pashtuns even in ancient times. Only around the time of Babur did it become exclusively referenced to Pashtuns

ibn Battuta even called persian speaking people Afghans

We travelled on to Kabul, formerly a vast town, the site of which is now occupied by a village inhabited by a tribe of Persians called Afghans. They hold mountains and defiles and possess considerable strength, and are mostly highwaymen. Their principle mountain is called Kuh Sulayman.[23]
—Ibn Battuta, 1304–1369

but we only see distinction from Afghans and Farsiwan later on.

In the country of Kābul there are many and various tribes. Its valleys and plains are inhabited by Tūrks, Aimāks, and Arabs. In the city and the greater part of the villages, the population consists of Tājiks (called "Sarts" by Babur). Many other of the villages and districts are occupied by Pashāis, Parāchis, Tājiks, Berekis, and Afghans. In the hill-country to the west, reside the Hazāras and Nukderis. Among the Hazāra and Nukderi tribes, there are some who speak the Moghul language. In the hill-country to the north-east lies Kaferistān, such as Kattor and Gebrek. To the south is Afghanistān... There are eleven or twelve different languages spoken in Kābul: Arabic, Persian, Tūrki, Moghuli, Hindi, Afghani, Pashāi, Parāchi, Geberi, Bereki, and Lamghāni...[24]
—Babur, 1525

The only WRITTEN sources.
Stop masturbating at something that is not a real proof to your claims.
My example with the Aboriginis higlighted it.

Your example wasn't evidence of anything since the environment of Pashtun would have denoted a written language. The evironment of Aborigines would not. Even then we just ASSUMED your premise. Honestly the main way they're able to mark aborigines to antiguity is by relics. We dont have Pashto relics from antiquity.

So your example actually defeat your argument, not lays credence.

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_war.asp (Hinduism and violence)
Ashoka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Hinduism and warfare)

yeah Ashoka was warlike before he became Buddhist and he was said to be irreligious before he became Buddhist.

List of Scheduled Tribes in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (the whole indian subcontinent is full of tribes and tribal systems aka patrilineage)

Hindu are not patrilineal.

We have research by Prof. Lorenz who attested that PARTS of Pata Khazana are authentic and that middle Pashto was spoken in the times of Amir Krror who lived as an historical figure around 700 AC.

Not until you show the direct quotes. Until then it is skeptical.

Where does he say that Amir Kror lived around 700 AC? According to you it simply says Middle Pashto.....he doesnt confirm when the Amir Kror or Middle Pashto existed.

You're committing a syllogistic fallacy; that confirmation of the early forms of Pashto means confirmation of Pashto's pre-Islamic antiquity.

He was from the Suri tribe, that would proof the presence of a tribal system that Soghdians and Bactrians had, too.

No it wouldn't because the existence of Amir Kror has never been established, all we have is 17th century literature. What Lorenz seems to be indicating is that it is probably Pashto from the 15th century.

there is nothing that explicitly states Soghdians and Bactrians were tribal.

Is there a university in your area?
Do they have a facility for Iranian studies?
Yes?

No, and since you claim to have read the reference you should quote and demonstrate proof for us. Photo copying it even.

This book will be definitly among other books present at that library.
I am not your professor nor am I your nanny. I gave you the reference, please proof me wrong or as you may say " A LIAR" and present work that contradicts my views.

Well then your reference is not admissable into this discussion since you refuse to supply the requirement of evidence.

You lose points there.

Finding coins from Buddhist and Hindu eras from a location that a tribe never left, is a strong hint of that tribes pre-islamic nature.

Firstly how do you know the tribe never left that area? Pashtun migrations westward were said to happen during the 15th century according to to Lodhi and others. So if a Spainard descended Mexican finds Inca coins that means he was an Inca? THis is why your argument is weak. it falls on a false presence.

Social sciences can´t be proven 100%.
Even natural sciences base on theories and models.

fair enough but saying my "dad told me so" is bull**** no matter which science you refer to.

Weren´t you telling me about the other member here Scythian and his field of study and the flaws of etymological research on finding similarities between words of different languages?

No I was telling you about the flaws of using FALSE COGNATES...... those are words of different languages that "sound similar" but actually are philogically and etymologically different.

You have a chance to take your

words back or be exposed as a liar here.

I dont need to take my words back you have been exhorting intellectual dishonesty and logical fallacies and misrepresentations of my statements the whole time you have been here.

go quote me and see how your description of my statement and what I actually said differs dramatically.




You don´t even read the links I give to you. You are a lost case, my friend:

"...He is painted red or flame colour, four-armed, carrying a 'trident' (Sanskrit:

flame COLOR is not an indication of being a God of Fire.....get real kid. You were much smarter back on Afghansite.

----> flame coulour

yeah flame COLOR doesn't mean he had anything to do with fire.

Could be! Research has do be done here!

then do it

Not neccessarily.
Languages that are spoken by people who live in remote areas usualy don´t have a written tradition. SO FAR nothing has been found.
Soghdian, Avestan and Bactrian were languages that were spoken close to the areas of the silk road. Yaghnobi was the lingua franca of the silk road, now only a few thousand people speak it

Soghdians, Avestans and Bactrians werent remote; if Pashto is descended from these languages they wouldnt be remote either

nice try.

Is there a university in your area?
Do they have a facility for Iranian studies?
Yes?
This book will be definitly among other books present at that library.
I am not your professor nor am I your nanny. I gave you the reference, please proof me wrong or as you may say " A LIAR" and present work that contradicts my views.

you made the claim the ONUS is on you.....

Source?

Baburnama
PHI Persian Literature in Translation

In the city and the greater part of the villages, the population consists of Tājiks (called "Sarts" by Babur).

Foot notes!

no footnotes on your first link, second link almost completely irrelevant content

[ScimitarXEdge]

It does.
Otherwise other tactics like taking and holding area would be implemented.

This shows you have 0% knowledge of military engagement.

or it shows you're hugely brainwashed and are limited to the understandings of two writers.

Pacha Khan was and is a drug trafficer.
Paktia´s sociaty looks down on people like him.
You may be a western educated Afghan who thinks that being a "pimp" is cool but "mordagaw" is not something that someone would take credit for in Afghanistan. The same for drug trafficers.

That doesn't explain his power and reverence amongst his people. If he was a mordagow he'd have been deposed b now.

I said that the Mujahedin operated with the help of the people.
Without their will they would have been lost like any other guerilla movement in history of mankind.

I know what you said and if you believe heavily warmed mujahideen could only do what they did with popular support, same applies here.

hence you defeat your own argument. Good job kid.

Your one-sentence replies are just weak and expose your stupidity.

you're just mad that I can easily dispatch your points by demonstrating their logical inconsistency. Don't cry. its very khezlak

So?

your argument fails.

My condolences!
That´s why you stick to your Islam-Pashtun-identity thingy without proving anything. I see.

that's just you transferring your own feeling of inadequacy for wanting so desperately to believe Pashtuns have 5000 year history based on baseless stories and forgeries.

Besides you're half Tajik a I recall

Sorry, I was talking about the Usbek DIASPORA that fled Usbekistan because of the post-communist regime there. Many of there fighters escaped to Pakistan after 2001. You have no clue right but just wanna shoot some hot air?

Those people aren't local though. so this point is moot.

That´s not fun, man. Chahar Darreh is there hotbed.
The German Army has a hard time with these fighters.

perhaps it is, and that is fine. If Uzbeks are fighting against these farangyan that is beautiful. The point being that they arent locals so the locals have to support both them and the Taliban.

And stop this bacheesh. I am not used to farsi-street languages nor should a Pashtun-Arab guy like you communicate in a language not familiar to him.

oh right but you'll use words like "mordagow" hahaha. your moms Tajik homes....you aren't fooling me.

Some posts ago you were talking abou ancestral areas and common place bla bla, no you make differentiations that aren´t even obvious for themselves.
The boundaries between these groups is fluent. "Haqqani Network" is just a name. TTP also.
If there is a common ground on operational and organisational el, and on a ideological level, too, then everything is said.

Their strategic goals are different though, I never said there isnt some mutual support or admiration or that their goals werent complimentary.

Except for Arab fighters from the HN who blow themselves up, there were no larg-scale attacks on bases, convoys etc. in Paktia or Khost

then how do you explain all those IEDs? tsk tsk

Ah, Comrade Boris!
I can assure you that you will be a witness to the death of your ideology

you see the irony here of calling me Comrade Boris, when most of your Mellatis were ex Khaqis

Our ideology is growing while most "Pashtuncentrists" are being spit on. It is only a matter of time.

I propagate that for all Pashtun tribes.
Internationalist ideologies are BS and haven´t been successfull in the history of mankind.

I propagate that for all Pashtuns, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazaras, Punjabis, Bengalis, Baluchis, Albanians, Arabs and the list goes on and on

your vision is short sighted, that's why yours wont succeed and mine will. I love others regardless of their ethnicity, where as our peoples divide themselves by tribes. I have more reach your reach is short.

something that you can propagate because you have split identity between Pashtun and Arab.
Stop projecting your own complexes on Afghanistan.
Even during the Jihad, the Arab units were separate from that of the Afghans

there's no complex; I don't need to fabricate some mythological tales about my ethnic origins. I keep it simple. This is however something you Mellatis have been desperate to have any obscure European Farangay reluctantly try to confirm for you and even then they only give a half hearted and flimsy answer just not to hurt your feelings

Pashtun units were separate from Tajik and Uzbek units too. Some Pashtun units were divided by tribes. This only proves how Jahil people who are ethnocentric are.

Internationalism was defeated ONCE in Afghanistan,
it will be the graveyard for an Arab conquest, too, as it was right at the beginning of the islami expansion.

Yet most of Afghanistan today is Muslim and united together under Abdlali for the cause of Islam .

There is no Arab conquest ...that's something mellatis learned from their farang masters to divert attention of farangyan. It's funny you say internationlism will end but then you consider the Neocolonials a "far away enemy" just as they want you to think. you're their patsie kid

[MostafaM]

nothing about Bactrians being Nomadic

and about Soghdian nomads

"...This region known as Sogdiana had multi -layered links with India. R H Sulemanov in a paper presented in a seminar held in Tashkent in 2000 AD on India and Central Asia (pre Islamic period) has brought out many Indian parallels in ancient cults of Sogdiana. He has especially mentioned the funeral rites among the tribes and the same in Vedic tradition, the cult of fire worship and Mithraism (Sun worship Mithra/Mitra is Vedic Sun God , Farsi word is Mihir) the legend of Gandharvas (water deities) and the Ganges. Place names such as Kanka or Ganga has also the central Asian connections. The Mahabharatha mentions the name of Kanka (Kangu tribe). The water deity was also worshipped in Central Asia as an ideal of perfect womanhood. Apart from the Puranic cults mentioned above, five Hindu gods were known to have been worshipped in Sogdiana, namely Brahma, Indra , Mahadeva (Shiva), Narayana and Vaishravana, who had the Sogdiana names of Zravan, Adabad and Veshparkar respectively . The four-armed goddess riding the lion may be Durga. Portable fire altars associated with Mahadeva-Veshparkar, Brahma-Zravan and Indra-Abdab found in an 8th-century mural at Panjakent also deserves special mention...."


Source:
India and Central Asia: classical to contemporary periods By J. N. Roy, Braja Bihārī Kumāra, Astha Bharati (Organization) Published by Astha Bharati Page 8


Settled people weren´t the backbone of the trading merchants across the silk road. It´s like calling your Arab ancestors who crossed the desert for trade as settled people.

Well lack of written proof demonstrates lack of linguial proof. There is no reason for Pashto to have been unrecorded language.

Remote languages in remote areas which do not spread because of a lack of interaction stay remote. Millions of languages have come and gone.

You're making a false dichotomy; not being there over night doesn't mean existing prior to the predominance of Islam in the region.

You still haven´t shown the link between Islam and Pashto.
Please prove your point here!

Because it goes without saying. ANY CONCRETE references of Pashtuns identify them as being Muslims. Now words like "Afghan"...and "Avaghan" and what not is too shaky as this didn't always refer to Pashtuns even in ancient times. Only around the time of Babur did it become exclusively referenced to Pashtuns

Basic concepts of Pashtunwali are anti-islamic.
For example a tribal jirga with a consultationary character and any lack of ONE leader as an Amir would be who unites religious and earthly power.

The role of women in Pashtun sociaty is that of a possession, in Islam women have certain rights like right to an inheritance etc.

ibn Battuta even called persian speaking people Afghans

Ibn Battuta is not considered a linguist or specialist in Aryan/Iranian people.

Honestly the main way they're able to mark aborigines to antiguity is by relics. We dont have Pashto relics from antiquity.

Words in Pashto from related languages that aren´t spoken anymore is a proof of that. Atleast to a proto-Pashto version.

yeah Ashoka was warlike before he became Buddhist and he was said to be irreligious before he became Buddhist.

And his Hindu army and generals?
Where they not religious, too?
Or did he fight his wars alone?

Start to make sense, honestly!

Hindu are not patrilineal.

http://www.goddiscussion.com/33592/the-fruits-of-patriarchy-indias-hindu-widows-left-to-die/

Where does he say that Amir Kror lived around 700 AC? According to you it simply says Middle Pashto.....he doesnt confirm when the Amir Kror or Middle Pashto existed.

You're committing a syllogistic fallacy; that confirmation of the early forms of Pashto means confirmation of Pashto's pre-Islamic antiquity.

"Pashto is an Eastern Iranian language that was brought from Bactrus( Bactra--modern Balkh) to southern Afghanistan. Its speakers were Sakas who migrated to Siestan (Sakistan) in 2nd Century B.C. Before this, Pashto and other Saka dialects like Pamiri, in particular Munji and Yadgha, were spoken in the same style. Moreover, it had a close affinity with Ephtalite and Kushanian languages. Proto Pashto had a very close affinity with Avesta but was more intimately linked to Saka. It seems that after its early phase in Pamir and Balakh, Pashto completed its middle phase (Middle Pashto) in Siestan, Helmand, Ghor, and Arachoazia (Kandahar) and modern phase (Modern Pashto) in Kasi Ghar (Suleiman Mountains).
There is two surviving modern languages closest to Scythian are Ossetian in the Caucasus mountains and Pashto in Afghanistan."

Source: A New Etymological Vocabulary of Pashto von Georg Morgenstierne

No, and since you claim to have read the reference you should quote and demonstrate proof for us. Photo copying it even.

I will.

Firstly how do you know the tribe never left that area? Pashtun migrations westward were said to happen during the 15th century according to to Lodhi and others. So if a Spainard descended Mexican finds Inca coins that means he was an Inca? THis is why your argument is weak. it falls on a false presence.

The problem is that you are not familiar with Pashtun culture and history. The book " The Pathans: 550 BC - AD 1957 (Oxford in Asia Historical Reprints)" should give you some insight into Pashtun history and culture.

I dont need to take my words back you have been exhorting intellectual dishonesty and logical fallacies and misrepresentations of my statements the whole time you have been here.

You haven´t given ANY source that would back up your claim that Pashtun identity and language formed because and/or after the Islamic conquest and think you can point fingers on someone who has given you many sources that are available online?

flame COLOR is not an indication of being a God of Fire.....get real kid. You were much smarter back on Afghansite.

Oh, flame colour, Mars as the god of war in almost every mythology of mankind and the imagery of fire and war in almost every culture mankind has been witness to so far.....hmmm, yes, you are outsmart me. lol

Afghansite?
Are you daydreaming about a lost boyfriend of yours?

Soghdians, Avestans and Bactrians werent remote; if Pashto is descended from these languages they wouldnt be remote either

What are your sources for this Arab/Islam---> Pashto/Pashtun link?

For the 10th time, elaborate on that please with sources!

[MostafaM]

or it shows you're hugely brainwashed and are limited to the understandings of two writers.

Those two writers wrote on a small aspect of warfare but they did research on many occasions and wars of others, beginning with the Spartacus uprising to the Mexican Revolution.

It´s ok that you are clueless. Not everyone knows everything.

That doesn't explain his power and reverence amongst his people. If he was a mordagow he'd have been deposed b now.

His power was purely based on the money he got from the US to built a militia to track down your countrymen who had came from all across the middle east to die in Afghanistan. Most of them got what they had hoped for.

I know what you said and if you believe heavily warmed mujahideen could only do what they did with popular support, same applies here.

hence you defeat your own argument. Good job kid.

Are you braindead or do you forget the former arguements?
Coming back and forth from secure areas to plant bombs on motorbikes and then flee across the line isn´t considered popular support.

you're just mad that I can easily dispatch your points by demonstrating their logical inconsistency. Don't cry. its very khezlak

I do not understand your street language, what is a khezlak?
Does your Arab mother refer to you like that?
Tell me the meaning please.

that's just you transferring your own feeling of inadequacy for wanting so desperately to believe Pashtuns have 5000 year history based on baseless stories and forgeries.

Besides you're half Tajik a I recall

Read history and the books that I gave as reference.

And no, Pashtun (Mangal from fathers side, Zadran from my mothers side). Not everyone is like you!

perhaps it is, and that is fine. If Uzbeks are fighting against these farangyan that is beautiful. The point being that they arent locals so the locals have to support both them and the Taliban.

Wrong.
They are expats who settled down in that area. They are the locals there now.
You do not seem to have any clue about Afghanistan whatsoever.

oh right but you'll use words like "mordagow" hahaha. your moms Tajik homes....you aren't fooling me.

You fool yourself enough.
No one else is needed for that.

Did you have an encounter with someone who left some marks on your soul? Do you wanna tell us about him? Who was he and what did he do to you?

then how do you explain all those IEDs? tsk tsk

Highly mobile units on motorbikes who can travel on roads that supply lines for the troops.

you see the irony here of calling me Comrade Boris, when most of your Mellatis were ex Khaqis

No Mellati here!
I am far far away from any ideology whatsoever!

Our ideology is growing while most "Pashtuncentrists" are being spit on. It is only a matter of time.

Have you lately been in Afghanistan or the Middle East?

You must be daydreaming.
Everyone wants democracy and freedom. No one wants your "Ummah"-BS!

I propagate that for all Pashtuns, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazaras, Punjabis, Bengalis, Baluchis, Albanians, Arabs and the list goes on and on

But no one cares!
Internationalist ideas have been refuted.
Your case is lost!

your vision is short sighted, that's why yours wont succeed and mine will. I love others regardless of their ethnicity, where as our peoples divide themselves by tribes. I have more reach your reach is short.

I don´t care if you live Treehuggistan aka La-La-Land.
My love is first for my own kind. I cannot solve the conflicts of the world if I havent solved mine first.

there's no complex; I don't need to fabricate some mythological tales about my ethnic origins. I keep it simple. This is however something you Mellatis have been desperate to have any obscure European Farangay reluctantly try to confirm for you and even then they only give a half hearted and flimsy answer just not to hurt your feelings

You have created your identity!
You strongly support a historical and linguistic fraud that connects Pashto as a language and heritage with the presence of Islam brought in by Arabs.
This is not simple and it is a stupid crime to brainwash people with your Ikhwani-BS!

You sources of Ibn-This or Ibn-That are better than scientific research on world level?

Now tell me you don´t have any complexes!

Yet most of Afghanistan today is Muslim and united together under Abdlali for the cause of Islam.

Muslim by religion.
Not by ideology!
Try to impose an islamic rule on Afghans and count the bullet holes in your chest.

There is no Arab conquest ...that's something mellatis learned from their farang masters to divert attention of farangyan. It's funny you say internationlism will end but then you consider the Neocolonials a "far away enemy" just as they want you to think. you're their patsie kid

The Far Away Enemy is defeated already. He hasn´t realised it yet. He will leave like the other Far Away Enemies from Alexander to Obama.
The near enemy, which I would count you, too, is always there, trying to undermine a peoples heritage and language by Islam as an ideology.

Thanks for exposing your views.
I really like that.

[graveyardofempires]

The near enemy, which I would count you, too, is always there, trying to undermine a peoples heritage and language by Islam as an ideology.

Thanks for exposing your views.
I really like that.

do you have any problem with us afghans being muslims?

[MostafaM]

do you have any problem with us afghans being muslims?

Not at all!

It depends what kind of a political system you people want to implement. That´s a whole different topic!

If you want an islamic system that consist of a "one-party" ruling elite that assembles of islamic preachers and ulama, where no other kind political movement is allowed aka where no political pluralism is allowed (that´s what I wanted to express with the word "ideology"), then I object that!

I do not agree with the omnipresent nature of Islam in a sociaty, specially in politics and the military.

[graveyardofempires]

Not at all!

It depends what kind of a political system you people want to implement. That´s a whole different topic!

If you want an islamic system that consist of a "one-party" ruling elite that assembles of islamic preachers and ulama, where no other kind political movement is allowed aka where no political pluralism is allowed (that´s what I wanted to express with the word "ideology"), then I object that!

I do not agree with the omnipresent nature of Islam in a sociaty, specially in politics and the military.

oh i see

alcohol drugs *****s and rock and roll right?

[MostafaM]

oh i see

alcohol drugs *****s and rock and roll right?

I don´t care what you do in your basement party room.

Not my business.

I was talking about political life in a politically, culturally and religiously diverse sociaty.

Do you lack intellect or what is the problem here?

[graveyardofempires]

I don´t care what you do in your basement party room.

Not my business.

I was talking about political life in a politically, culturally and religiously diverse sociaty.

Do you lack intellect or what is the problem here?

the problem is you are out of touch with reality and believe in lies while you know those are lies.

let me put it straight
-Afghanistan 99% muslim population
-Afghanistan not fund of invaders and have independent spirit.
-Afghans will spit on your idealogy if you disrespect their way of life ISLAM.


well i dont have a party basement i bet you do thats why you are telling me,btw why not alcohol *****s rock and roll,i mena you are clearly anti everything Afghan beginning from Islam.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Settled people weren´t the backbone of the trading merchants across the silk road. It´s like calling your Arab ancestors who crossed the desert for trade as settled people.

If that was the case they wouldnt have been settled. Doh caught you on that one

It would be like saying your Indian ancestors just built cities and temples because it wasnt prosperous to do so for trading.

Furthermore your reference is relying on the Mahabharata a book of mythology. Give me a break. This is why wikipedia stuff is always suspect

.Remote languages in remote areas which do not spread because of a lack of interaction stay remote. Millions of languages have come and gone.

and this wouldn't apply since the region was never isolated. So moot point. Stay relevant Now

And his Hindu army and generals?
Where they not religious, too?
Or did he fight his wars alone?

Start to make sense, honestly!

birds of a feather flock together, look at Massoud and his likes

Words in Pashto from related languages that aren´t spoken anymore is a proof of that. Atleast to a proto-Pashto version.

yes it would, languages which are written down get PRESERVED and thus we an isolate ETYMOLOGICAL ROOTS.

Ibn Battuta is not considered a linguist or specialist in Aryan/Iranian people.

Ibn Battuta knew how to speak Persian, so he recognized their language as persian. YOu don't need an expertise in linguistics for that.

That's like your Indian ancestors going to Syria and hearing people speak Arabic and then saying these people speak Arabic but call themselves Shamiyeen

Afghan didn't always refer to Pashtuns sir, no need to rely on Mellati propaganda

You still haven´t shown the link between Islam and Pashto.
Please prove your point here!

I did you're just in denial, you want so badly for Pashtun to be 5000 years old when it just isnt happening

The link is that the ONLY explicit references for Pashtuns happen after Islam had become predominant in the region. where s other peoples are extensively referenced. That's the link. I never claim my statement as fact but it coincides with the evidence at least.

Basic concepts of Pashtunwali are anti-islamic.
For example a tribal jirga with a consultationary character and any lack of ONE leader as an Amir would be who unites religious and earthly power.

Not true Abdali was placed into power by jirgah and he was deemed Amir Al Mumineen. they didnt clash there.

The role of women in Pashtun sociaty is that of a possession, in Islam women have certain rights like right to an inheritance etc.

I dont agree. I believe these rules which deem women as property are corruptions of Pashtunwali that happened later on as a way of dealing with environmental pressures because of incursions onto pashtun landscape.

I believe the original intent was security of women, not to treat them as property; because of the Pashto value of namous. The Pashto idea of namous is consistent with Islam

in fact Ghairat and Namous are both Arabic words

The Fruits of Patriarchy: India's Hindu Widows Left to Die | God Discussion

Christian fundamentalist site? OWNED!!!!


INDIA'S ANCIENT MATRIARCHY

double owned

"Pashto is an Eastern Iranian language that was brought from Bactrus( Bactra--modern Balkh) to southern Afghanistan. Its speakers were Sakas who migrated to Siestan (Sakistan) in 2nd Century B.C. Before this, Pashto and other Saka dialects like Pamiri, in particular Munji and Yadgha, were spoken in the same style. Moreover, it had a close affinity with Ephtalite and Kushanian languages. Proto Pashto had a very close affinity with Avesta but was more intimately linked to Saka. It seems that after its early phase in Pamir and Balakh, Pashto completed its middle phase (Middle Pashto) in Siestan, Helmand, Ghor, and Arachoazia (Kandahar) and modern phase (Modern Pashto) in Kasi Ghar (Suleiman Mountains).
There is two surviving modern languages closest to Scythian are Ossetian in the Caucasus mountains and Pashto in Afghanistan."

Source: A New Etymological Vocabulary of Pashto von Georg Morgenstierne

Oh interesting here is another interesting tidbit.

Saka language, also called Khotanese, Middle Iranian language spoken in Xinjiang, in northwestern China, by the Saka tribes. Two dialectal varieties are distinguished. Khotanese, from the kingdom of Khotan, is richly attested by Buddhist and other texts dating from the 7th to the 10th century. Most of these writings remain unedited. The other dialect, known from only one Buddhist fragment, is connected with Tumshuq. The texts are written in Brahmi script and contain many loanwords from the Prakrit languages of India

here's more

"KHOTANESE OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS IN THE TENTH CENTURY A.D. (MIDDLE IRANIAN" by HIROSHI KUMAMOTO

Abstract
The present study deals with three MSS in Khotanese, a Middle Iranian language, found in Tun-huang, Chinese Turkestan. They are: P2786 (250 lines) preserved at the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris, Or8212.186 (80 lines) and part of Or8212.162 (45 lines), both preserved at the British Museum, London.

you were right for shunning Morgenstierne, his research is outdated.

lol

The problem is that you are not familiar with Pashtun culture and history. The book " The Pathans: 550 BC - AD 1957 (Oxford in Asia Historical Reprints)" should give you some insight into Pashtun history and culture

you make this too easy for me LOL

http://books.google.com/books?id=iqkRvaDThgC&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=pashtuns+migrated+westward+into+ithe+Kabul+valley&source=bl&ots=--_s9V8Yl4&sig=YZwM3jspnkR12ULh8QZe_w3m45o&hl=en&ei=48sgToOPN4j3gAexjum-Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

"The Pashtun expansion led to the displacement or subjugatiion of local autochthonous populations. One of the groups strongly affected were the Tajiks, the ancient sedentary, NON-TRIBAL population of the region. Prior to Pashtun migration to the Kabul River Valley, they had formed the dominant population of Kabul, Nangarhar and Laghman."

P. 161 of the book linked above.

It proves that Pashtuns are not natives to Eastern regions.

You haven´t given ANY source that would back up your claim that Pashtun identity and language formed because and/or after the Islamic conquest and think you can point fingers on someone who has given you many sources that are available online

yeah but MOST of your sources dont were

a.) irrelevant
b.) said something completely different than what you stated.
c.) had flimsy source material (which is probably because you're going to wikipedia and not double checking if the citations actually verify what is being claimed).

Which is almost like not showing sources at all

The sources which you can corroborate; I refuted with other sources which debunks them.

And as for my "claim".....I never "claimed" anything I said this is my THEORY and I base this THEORY on the FACT we cannot find any references of Pashtuns except during the er when Islam predominates.

Learn what the distinction between claim and theory is. YOU make claims, you think your ideas are FACT, I believe my ideas are most likely scenarios BASED on already existing evidence.

You studied Mechanical Engineering, you should know better than to make such fallacious misalignment.

Oh, flame colour, Mars as the god of war in almost every mythology of mankind and the imagery of fire and war in almost every culture mankind has been witness to so far.....hmmm, yes, you are outsmart me. lol

Which is wrong.

ARES : Greek God of War | Mythology, w/ pictures | Roman Mars

nothing about flame or fire here buddy.

What are your sources for this Arab/Islam---> Pashto/Pashtun link?

For the 10th time, elaborate on that please with sources!

For the 100th time this is my conclusion based on the available evidence. I never made this a claim. It's apparent to me that the fact Pashtuns are only explicitly mentioned after they are predominantly Muslim is indication their ethnogenesis happened after Soghdians and other populations became Muslim.

It is true that our ancestors were probably buddhist, hindu zoroastrians, but the ancestors of Pashtuns weren't Pashtuns themselves. Pashtun evolved from them. That's my theory.

[MostafaM]

-Afghanistan 99% muslim population

Correct.

-Afghanistan not fund of invaders and have independent spirit.

Correct.
But do you Arab, Chechen, Punjabi, Tajikistani, Indonesian, Maroccon, Saudi, Emirati etc. fighters who come to Afghanistan to impose their ideology on the people count as "foreign invaders", too, or not?
Or are you happy with all the terrorist organisations who come and leave as they wish?

-Afghans will spit on your idealogy if you disrespect their way of life ISLAM.

I haven´t presented any ideology here so what are you day-dreaming about? Political Pluralism is what Pashtunwali preaches: people with different views come together in a jirga and try to find a solution. It doesn´t matter what they believe in or not believe in.

If you are too stupid for your own culture then thats not my problem.

well i dont have a party basement i bet you do thats why you are telling me,btw why not alcohol *****s rock and roll,i mena you are clearly anti everything Afghan beginning from Islam.

Your assumption about the things you day-dream clearly allows everyone to make a picture of your hypocrite mind.
I do not dip Islam in everything because it is foremost a religion.
For you it is much more and you would like to see it imposed on others.

Let´s see who prevails, ok, slave of Ikhwanu- Jaheleen?

[graveyardofempires]

Correct.



Correct.
But do you Arab, Chechen, Punjabi, Tajikistani, Indonesian, Maroccon, Saudi, Emirati etc. fighters who come to Afghanistan to impose their ideology on the people count as "foreign invaders", too, or not?
Or are you happy with all the terrorist organisations who come and leave as they wish?

Those are muslims and if they too come to Afghanistan to impose their idealogy which will they will get the same treatment since Afghanistan has been muslim for centuries.
so according to you the Arabs who brought Islam to Afghanistan were bad people?

I haven´t presented any ideology here so what are you day-dreaming about? Political Pluralism is what Pashtunwali preaches: people with different views come together in a jirga and try to find a solution. It doesn´t matter what they believe in or not believe in.
Pashtunwali is for people with different views while all of them are muslims ,so you failed once again.This time trying to hide behind Pashtunwali whcih you know nothing about and if Pashtuns were to choose between Islam and Pukhtunwali they will choose Islam.


If you are too stupid for your own culture then thats not my problem.

Look who is stupid.



Your assumption about the things you day-dream clearly allows everyone to make a picture of your hypocrite mind.
o really
I do not dip Islam in everything because it is foremost a religion.
For you it is much more and you would like to see it imposed on others.

Let´s see who prevails, ok, slave of Ikhwanu- Jaheleen?

Well to us muslim Afghans 99% of the population Islam is our way of life so what is your problem again?