Jinnah and co

[Toramana]

Well me aswell i have never seen such desperate souls who are trying their level best to snatch away somebody elses piece of pride. And we are proud of our origins and u dont have to tell us about that as we know who we are . If the kings can marry locals and produce children like jahangir, shahjahan, sikandar lodhi etc then i guess there armies did not stay single too. While i know u will not accept this fact but u were the one who was writing alot of posts in Dna genetic section .Why dont u tell us how much indic u r . Do u think that u r clean of that well i have seen the table too and its reveals u to be 25 percent indic too and same goes for other ethnicities but a bit more than 25 percent may be 35 percent well u can check that table once more on which u guys have posted 41 pages .
I cant make u understand anything . U seem to think that u r pure of hindu blood but i assure u u have that so as me . Maybe i have more but i still look good and nobody can say that i m hindu looking .
I know we didnt get along but thats the part of life. opinions dont match. And one more thing be proud of those things which u have acheived not those which u havent and r just desperate to claim them too.

The bulk of Pakis have indigenous mixed north and south Indian origin and are either Jat or Gujjars, Araian, or Chohan, etc. i.e., the same ethnic origin that Hindus and Sikhs across Wahga also have. They speak the same language, wear the same dress, eat the same food, have the same values, and have the same appearance and looks.

True. Northern invaders including Pashtuns/Afghans might have born children with local women some centuries back but that is no longer relevant or important. Ethnic affiliation is by culture, values, language, etc. not by vague and unverifiable claims of ancestry. You might exalt in the self-delusion but the rest of the world is not going to accept that.

Be proud of what you really are. Indian Culture including its Punjabi flavor after all is a fascinating culture.

[Toramana]

I read this comment and you know what I did. I burst out laughing. Its as if I'm on weed except I'm not.

Tormana you have sold yourself to Afghans despite being from our side. You view Afghans as your Gods and Pakistani Pashtuns as rubbish as you have proven in your previous posts and those same Afghans think of you as a son of the British and a lesser Pashtun.

I am an Afghan/Pashtun for the past 3000-5000 years by culture, ethnicity, values, language, geography, etc. as all Pashtuns are irrespective of where they live. Sorry but I cannot be one with you although I may be bound to you by forced citizenship, religion, and humanity. I will rather put my lot with my own kind i.e., Afghans/Pashtuns, when it comes to preserving my identity and expressing fellial feelings.

You are an example of a very confused person who does not know who he is. Is he Pashtun?-Is he Afghan? Is he British? Canadian? Or is he a long lost son of some Punjabi who only thinks he is a Pashtun?

You are unwilling to accept who you are.

I am an Afghan/Pashtun for 5000 years, a Muslim for 1400 years, and unwillingly a Paki for 60 years. That is a fact I unfortunately cannot jettison easily.

You (as well some others on the other hand) on the other hand are Indians in every sense of the word speaking an Indo-Aryan language and having indigenous Indian ethnicity yet are not ready to accept that and rather are desperately trying to put on another facade.

We all know what we are. All of us know we are Pakistani Pashtuns. Do you? Or are you a self-hater?

You are a non-Pashtun someone of Indic origin. It will be more dignified of you if you accept that fact.

Also this friend has proven that all Pashtuns who ruled were from the Pakistani Pashtun side or Pakhtunkhwa so we have the major part in any history. On one hand you claim all Pashtuns are one and now you are self-hating on your own Pakistani Pashtuns? Just look at the hypocrisy. This is his comment: This means Afghans have effectively either been ruled by the Pakistani Pashtun or someone else.

The plain fact is, we Pashtuns/Afghans ruled you. Remember, Punjab including Kashmir was a part of Afghan Empire Ahmad Shah Baba established (until you make the claim that Ahmad Shah Baba was a Punjabi/Siraiki because he was born in Multan)---before that the mighty Suris, Lhudis, and Khiljis/Ghlijis were your rulers.

Last, stop this drama----don't behave and argue like a clown.

[afghanis_hehe]

The bulk of Pakis have indigenous mixed north and south Indian origin and are either Jat or Gujjars, Araian, or Chohan, etc. i.e., the same ethnic origin that Hindus and Sikhs across Wahga also have. They speak the same language, wear the same dress, eat the same food, have the same values, and have the same appearance and looks.

True. Northern invaders including Pashtuns/Afghans might have born children with local women some centuries back but that is no longer relevant or important. Ethnic affiliation is by culture, values, language, etc. not by vague and unverifiable claims of ancestry. You might exalt in the self-delusion but the rest of the world is not going to accept that.

Be proud of what you really are. Indian Culture including its Punjabi flavor after all is a fascinating culture.

Well in the same genetic table jat seems to have more north europeon than u have . heheh thats quite funny though .. well i dont have anything to say except u shud see the afghan singers and dancers who i think look completely indian to me or even worse than them ..well give me one pretty afghan singer or actress ,not a model of mixed ethinicty. on the other hand khiljis were turks stop adding them in the list of urs. on the other hand suri and lodhis are partl turkic unless u trace the family on the basis of women like bibi mato whose sons name were lodhi and suri . While there father was turk. all the ghilzais are partly turkic and dont associate khiljis with ghilzais . ghilzais are half khilji turks but khiljis were turks(Barani is the biggest sources who states that they were central asian turks who settled in afghanistan like sikhs have settled in afghanistan (it doesnt mean that those sikhs are tajiks pakhtoons)).
if these groups that u have talked abt jat gujjar and arain were of north and south indian mix then they would have been more inclined towards south indians in looks but i think u cant deny the fact that these four castes that u have talked were the ones amongst many turkic kings married akbar married rajputs , now if they were dark then i dont think anybody would have married them . well u also need to see the descendants of bahadar shah who are quite dark but it doesnt mean that they dont have mughal blood. Cmon u r just basing ur assumption on the basis of ur hatred . these groups that u have talked abt includes gujjars and i guess ur national anthem also includes their name and they make large population in swat and look wise i can say that they dont look like hindus and neither do jatts . well there is genetic graph which u have been discussing why not study that .it will reveal u the info . it seems to me that according to u turkish soldiers and persian soldiers brought thousands of women with them and they only married those , but this statement is completely wrong as kings like bahlol lodhi, akbar , jahangir and many more have marrried to the local hindu women.
post ur hatred in afghanforums not here .

[afghanis_hehe]

I am an Afghan/Pashtun for the past 3000-5000 years by culture, ethnicity, values, language, geography, etc. as all Pashtuns are irrespective of where they live. Sorry but I cannot be one with you although I may be bound to you by forced citizenship, religion, and humanity. I will rather put my lot with my own kind i.e., Afghans/Pashtuns, when it comes to preserving my identity and expressing fellial feelings.



I am an Afghan/Pashtun for 5000 years, a Muslim for 1400 years, and unwillingly a Paki for 60 years. That is a fact I unfortunately cannot jettison easily.

You (as well some others on the other hand) on the other hand are Indians in every sense of the word speaking an Indo-Aryan language and having indigenous Indian ethnicity yet are not ready to accept that and rather are desperately trying to put on another facade.

[QUOTEWe all know what we are. All of us know we are Pakistani Pashtuns. Do you? Or are you a self-hater?

You are a non-Pashtun someone of Indic origin. It will be more dignified of you if you accept that fact.



The plain fact is, we Pashtuns/Afghans ruled you. Remember, Punjab including Kashmir was a part of Afghan Empire Ahmad Shah Baba established (until you make the claim that Ahmad Shah Baba was a Punjabi/Siraiki because he was born in Multan)---before that the mighty Suris, Lhudis, and Khiljis/Ghlijis were your rulers.

Last, stop this drama----don't behave and argue like a clown.

[/QUOTE]

Well i guess ur ahmad shah baba was a worker of nadir shah a turkic again. Whereever he was born he is more close to pakistani pakhtuns than to afghans . dont link khiljis with ghiljis to prove that they were afghans . i have already given enough proofs about that, a scholar from that time barani cant lie i think. u r arguing for no reason. We dont want to claim ahmad shah baba who did nothing exceptional. Sher shah should be the one who u shud be proud of . a ruler who was strong and intelligent.
where does it state that u have a nation 5000 years old(stop making up things as u make up history that suits u . afghans have the history of being under rule of turks, persians ,hindus. u shud thank pakistan as this was the place all ur three heroes were born and raised ).

[afghanis_hehe]

I read this comment and you know what I did. I burst out laughing. Its as if I'm on weed except I'm not.

Tormana you have sold yourself to Afghans despite being from our side. You view Afghans as your Gods and Pakistani Pashtuns as rubbish as you have proven in your previous posts and those same Afghans think of you as a son of the British and a lesser Pashtun.

You are an example of a very confused person who does not know who he is. Is he Pashtun?-Is he Afghan? Is he British? Canadian? Or is he a long lost son of some Punjabi who only thinks he is a Pashtun?

You are unwilling to accept who you are.

We all know what we are. All of us know we are Pakistani Pashtuns. Do you? Or are you a self-hater?

Also this friend has proven that all Pashtuns who ruled were from the Pakistani Pashtun side or Pakhtunkhwa so we have the major part in any history. On one hand you claim all Pashtuns are one and now you are self-hating on your own Pakistani Pashtuns? Just look at the hypocrisy. It proves you have adopted Afghan policy of hating Pashtuns from Pakhtunkhwa even though you're one yourself. This is his comment:

This means Afghans have effectively either been ruled by the Pakistani Pashtun or someone else.

Brother i am really tired of this guy who will never accept this fact and i m pretty sure he is not pakistani pakhtun . his ancestors were afghan refugeess and he was just born in pakistan and his family moved to some foreign country. But the truth is that all these heroes that they claim to be afghan i.e lodhi dynasty behlol lodhi was born in multan. While ahmad shah baba was born in multan and the sher shah suri was also born in present day pakistan. Not only this theer is not even any sur tribe members in afghanistan ,not even lodhis and most durranis are in pakistan . How come they say that they are there heroes . they should thank you pakistan pakhtuns for producing ahmad shah baba who created afghanistan for them .ITS BECAUSE OF KP PAKHTUNS THAT AHMAD SHAH BABA WAS BORN AND WHO CREATED AFGHANISTAN.
lodhis suris are now settled in punjab most of them and in other provinces in limited numbers but he will not accept the reality .

[KGODB]

Brother i am really tired of this guy who will never accept this fact and i m pretty sure he is not pakistani pakhtun . his ancestors were afghan refugeess and he was just born in pakistan and his family moved to some foreign country. But the truth is that all these heroes that they claim to be afghan i.e lodhi dynasty behlol lodhi was born in multan. While ahmad shah baba was born in multan and the sher shah suri was also born in present day pakistan. Not only this theer is not even any sur tribe members in afghanistan ,not even lodhis and most durranis are in pakistan . How come they say that they are there heroes . they should thank you pakistan pakhtuns for producing ahmad shah baba who created afghanistan for them .ITS BECAUSE OF KP PAKHTUNS THAT AHMAD SHAH BABA WAS BORN AND WHO CREATED AFGHANISTAN.
lodhis suris are now settled in punjab most of them and in other provinces in limited numbers but he will not accept the reality .

Lol @ this garbage. Such is the extent of your lack of identity and
Culture that you must steal ours

Be padar step child of the east, no nuclear weapon will ever change that shirina

[KGODB]

[SIZE="4"]

Well i guess ur ahmad shah baba was a worker of nadir shah a turkic again. Whereever he was born he is more close to pakistani pakhtuns than to afghans . dont link khiljis with ghiljis to prove that they were afghans . i have already given enough proofs about that, a scholar from that time barani cant lie i think. u r arguing for no reason. We dont want to claim ahmad shah baba who did nothing exceptional. Sher shah should be the one who u shud be proud of . a ruler who was strong and intelligent.
where does it state that u have a nation 5000 years old(stop making up things as u make up history that suits u . afghans have the history of being under rule of turks, persians ,hindus. u shud thank pakistan as this was the place all ur three heroes were born and raised ).

Be padar orphan step child

Can you please name me one indigineous leader from the land today considered Pakistan?

I will wait

[KGODB]

Afghanis He He, like many Pakistani nationalists, react passionately to pashtun nationalism because they are themselvrs culture less and identity less and disconnected from their history because of shame (due to
Hindu ancestors) and so the fact that Paki Pashtuns have a source
Of culture and identity and history that they have NO REASON TO BE DISCONNECTED FROM, this upsets them

Again i sincerely repeat that Paki Pashtuns can
Choose this destiny if they so wish

[Toramana]

There was a retired bureaucrat in Khyber Pukhtunkhwa with the name Abdullah (a Potohari speaker from Havilian Hazara) who was a die-hard member of Jummath-i-Islami (Akhwanul Muslimin of Pakistan). During Musharaf reign, he was the provincial minister of jail-khana-jath (prisons).

One a UNO member delegate concerned with the condition of prisoners visited him and discussed with him the situation of KP prisons. This guy being a die-hard Akhwani and by that implication a Pakistani patriot agitated and considering the delegate a Westerner started arguing with him e.g., "you don't know how the prophet (PBUH) and Hadrath Ummar and Ummayds, and Abbasayids treated prisoners? How come are you giving us lessons on the rights of prisoners?".

Now this guy Abdullah didn't know the delegate he was talking to was an Arab. The delegate politely told him "being an Arab I very well know my history i.e., Ummayds, Abbasays, etc. Here we are talking about the prisoners the way they are being treated in KP prisons". And humuliated sat this Pakistani patriot Abdullah.

But this is a general attitude of Pakistani patriots (mostly Punjabis and the allied ethnic groups like Kashmiris). Desperate to find themselves heroes and embarrassed about their Indian origin, they start identifying themselves Turks, Mughals, etc. and laying claims to other people heroes. In inferiority complex, they also try to steal history and historical figures of other people --- Or try to tarnish histories of other nations if their ridiculous claims are rejected (the inferiority complex that if you don't accept me as you, I am going to deny what you are).

Khiljis, Suris, Lhodis, Abdalis, etc. established Afghan dynasties and ruled the native people as masters and overlords. The Indics (later Muslims ) still were pre-dominantly Hindus when these dynasties ruled with status that of subject people. Most converted to Islam to escape the oppression of Hindu caste system.

Kindly, give me any Indic hero except Ranjit Singh.

[faye]

so much pride riding on other than ones own actions.
do most of you live in the west because you don't consider muslim countries adequate for your westernised needs?
the hindus had a very colourful, intricate and clever culture pre islam so why would anyone need to be ashamed or feel inferior due to hindu roots? india is now beginning to become a powerful country.

[afghanis_hehe]

There was a retired bureaucrat in Khyber Pukhtunkhwa with the name Abdullah (a Potohari speaker from Havilian Hazara) who was a die-hard member of Jummath-i-Islami (Akhwanul Muslimin of Pakistan). During Musharaf reign, he was the provincial minister of jail-khana-jath (prisons).

One a UNO member delegate concerned with the condition of prisoners visited him and discussed with him the situation of KP prisons. This guy being a die-hard Akhwani and by that implication a Pakistani patriot agitated and considering the delegate a Westerner started arguing with him e.g., "you don't know how the prophet (PBUH) and Hadrath Ummar and Ummayds, and Abbasayids treated prisoners? How come are you giving us lessons on the rights of prisoners?".

Now this guy Abdullah didn't know the delegate he was talking to was an Arab. The delegate politely told him "being an Arab I very well know my history i.e., Ummayds, Abbasays, etc. Here we are talking about the prisoners the way they are being treated in KP prisons". And humuliated sat this Pakistani patriot Abdullah.

But this is a general attitude of Pakistani patriots (mostly Punjabis and the allied ethnic groups like Kashmiris). Desperate to find themselves heroes and embarrassed about their Indian origin, they start identifying themselves Turks, Mughals, etc. and laying claims to other people heroes. In inferiority complex, they also try to steal history and historical figures of other people --- Or try to tarnish histories of other nations if their ridiculous claims are rejected (the inferiority complex that if you don't accept me as you, I am going to deny what you are).

Khiljis, Suris, Lhodis, Abdalis, etc. established Afghan dynasties and ruled the native people as masters and overlords. The Indics (later Muslims ) still were pre-dominantly Hindus when these dynasties ruled with status that of subject people. Most converted to Islam to escape the oppression of Hindu caste system.

Kindly, give me any Indic hero except Ranjit Singh.

Bro i didnt even read ur whole post. What u can do is just give me a link where barani the historian who had lived in that ear says that khiljii was afghan dynasty i can say that there culture was afghan as they had lived there for quite a while but the sultans like feroz , allah udin khilji were central asian turks so come on dont steal the history of proud turks .
Well i have already told u abt ghilzais who are either descendants of khiulji turks that came long ago and mixed up in the culture marriages and changed into ghilzai. or from bibi mato who married a turk and gave birth to lodhi and suri from who bahlol lodhi and sher shah came. Now u only have claim over ahmed shah baba.
Stop claiming them u have lodhi suri and ahmad shah baba. we all shudnt forget we have indic origin but that doesnt mean that we dont have foreign origin .well i beleive in genetic studies and i am not interested in your verdicts . so What ever you say i will ignore .
But fact it history was all of central asians turks and on the other hand all the lodhi suris and ahmad shah was born in pakistan area so paistani pashtuns have much better claim on him . give me links where the things that u have said hold some reality i will give u my links
on the other hand if u think that people that have dark colour can not be offsprings of invades well then u need to see these direct descendants of bahadur shah and tell me how much turk they look like now .

http://indiasfirstwarofindependance1857.blogspot.com/2010/12/mughal-emperors-descendent-gets-job-jul.html

[afghanis_hehe]

There was a retired bureaucrat in Khyber Pukhtunkhwa with the name Abdullah (a Potohari speaker from Havilian Hazara) who was a die-hard member of Jummath-i-Islami (Akhwanul Muslimin of Pakistan). During Musharaf reign, he was the provincial minister of jail-khana-jath (prisons).

One a UNO member delegate concerned with the condition of prisoners visited him and discussed with him the situation of KP prisons. This guy being a die-hard Akhwani and by that implication a Pakistani patriot agitated and considering the delegate a Westerner started arguing with him e.g., "you don't know how the prophet (PBUH) and Hadrath Ummar and Ummayds, and Abbasayids treated prisoners? How come are you giving us lessons on the rights of prisoners?".

Now this guy Abdullah didn't know the delegate he was talking to was an Arab. The delegate politely told him "being an Arab I very well know my history i.e., Ummayds, Abbasays, etc. Here we are talking about the prisoners the way they are being treated in KP prisons". And humuliated sat this Pakistani patriot Abdullah.

But this is a general attitude of Pakistani patriots (mostly Punjabis and the allied ethnic groups like Kashmiris). Desperate to find themselves heroes and embarrassed about their Indian origin, they start identifying themselves Turks, Mughals, etc. and laying claims to other people heroes. In inferiority complex, they also try to steal history and historical figures of other people --- Or try to tarnish histories of other nations if their ridiculous claims are rejected (the inferiority complex that if you don't accept me as you, I am going to deny what you are).

Khiljis, Suris, Lhodis, Abdalis, etc. established Afghan dynasties and ruled the native people as masters and overlords. The Indics (later Muslims ) still were pre-dominantly Hindus when these dynasties ruled with status that of subject people. Most converted to Islam to escape the oppression of Hindu caste system.

Kindly, give me any Indic hero except Ranjit Singh.

Well on the other hand ranjit singh is not our hero he is a sikh hero and on the other hand i guess even with small army they captured ur areas and broke durrani empire which u r so proud of . But i go with the truth , On the other hand the history of lodhis suris that u r linking , u shud thank the turks who gave birth to these lodhis and suris . living in some place speaking the same language doesnt mean that they dont have turk blood running through their veins.
look at the pictures of these direct descendant of bahadur shah who are dark like indians and bengalis but that doesnt change the fact that they are mughal blood may be v much closer to central asians as compared to any of u . its not the phenotype that needs to be looked . genetic studies completely contradict ur statements as u yourself was quite into the genetic thread .where u can fin dthe table and remove ur misconceptions.
We indics according to u have produced jinnah who liberated us from britishers not like u making a looter father of afghanistan. Jinnah is enough as compared to ur so called heroes. on the other hand bacha khan a gaddar is ur hero . And most of the descendants of lodhis and suris are living in the indic region my brother and those are also the people that u call indics .. they have turned dark by living an through intermarriages with indians as well as others but as they now have lost their language and culture and have assimilated into other culture, u call them indic hahah . the peopel who gave u history are the ones being called indic. Give me some good ammount of liodhis in afghanistan or even suris.

[afghanis_hehe]

Be padar orphan step child

Can you please name me one indigineous leader from the land today considered Pakistan?

I will wait

Well i can say that lodhi was born in pakistan and his granfathaer had settled in multan . So was the case with Ahmad shah baba. So was the case with sher shah. On the other hand ur fav Ranjit singh may also have been born in pakistan . Jinnah was Born in pakistan .
well all the other leaders from ghaznawi to ghauri and to aibak mde lahore their place of centre. And i guess if they lived there they married also. Pakistan is a new born country and yes it has been invaded by a lot of turks , and persians .On the other hand i know that even though we might be having the blood of these invaders or there armies u wil not accept it as it is ur thinking . I can just say that there are alot of mughals mirza beg taimuri, chagtai , qizilbash , khiljis , shahs, gujjars who are living in this indic region are the offsprings of the locals and the invaders . Well i have already given the link of the direct descendanst of bahadr shah zafar who are much more darker like indians or bengalis but that doesnt mean that they dont have mughal bloooood. Well this is the only land and region where most of the leaders were born . thugh they were outsder i m talking abt turks mongols and persians but still they have their descendants in these indic region. On the other hand pakhtuns like lodhi suri and abdali were born here too so pakistani pakhtuns have a better claim over them as 70 percent pakhtuns are in pakistan

[afghanis_hehe]

Be padar orphan step child

Can you please name me one indigineous leader from the land today considered Pakistan?

I will wait

Well i m not proud that i have partial hindu ancestry too as u also have taht but let me tell u that janjua rajput empire was i guess in ur eyes indic even though they also might have come from outside .he ruled parts of afghanistan india pakistan until was defeeated by ghaznawi a turk and not afghan.
on the other hand Kabul shahi dynasty was hindu and they ruled afghanistan till kabul and pakistan part of india . i guess they might b indics too and they ruled these areas from 6 century till 11 century till mahmud ghaznawi came. And u guys were hindus too u dint straight away becamse muslims right

[Michin Khel]

Also this friend has proven that all Pashtuns who ruled were from the Pakistani Pashtun side or Pakhtunkhwa so we have the major part in any history. On one hand you claim all Pashtuns are one and now you are self-hating on your own Pakistani Pashtuns? Just look at the hypocrisy. It proves you have adopted Afghan policy of hating Pashtuns from Pakhtunkhwa even though you're one yourself. This is his comment:

This means Afghans have effectively either been ruled by the Pakistani Pashtun or someone else.

Brother i did'nt expact such BS from you. There was no such thing as "pakistani" or "pakistani pashtun" during times of lodhi and suri. It wont make you less of pakistani if you accept that Afghan=Pashtun. As "A" in pakistan stands for afghania according to chahaudry rehmat ali. Read urdu history books written by pakistani authors, they use terms like "sarhadi afghan", "hindostan par afghano ki hakomat", "sher shah suri naslan afghan ta " etc. I may not use title afghan for myself (due to some reasons) but i am actually an ethnic afghan , along with 30 million lar pashtuns.
And pakistan did'nt come into being with advent of mohamad bin qasim, neither it has any thing to do mughal and other dynasties. Muslim league original aim was not partition. Upto 1935 jinnah was strong supporter of hindu muslim unity. The term "pakistan" was used for the first time in 1946 by chaudry rehmat ali. It was in late 1946 and eary 1947 that jinnah begin to think of partition. According to him it was inevitable in 1947, before that he wanted proportional representations of muslims within india. Muslim league were never islamists, they used islam for political purpose.
And somehow we pashtuns have ended up in pakistan which was the idea concieved by and for hindostani muslims, who became paranoid that hindu majority would finish them from surface of earth. The same hindostani muslims are bullying us in karachi, are mocking sindhis, the real sons of sindh dharti.