Pakistan debate

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Do you hate Pakistan?

Sayyaf, how can you support Northern Alliance when they hate us Pashtuns ? I agree with most of yourpost.

Pakistan never supported Northern Alliance. Yes we did support the men who later on created and led the Northern alliance but we never supported the Northern Alliance, we supported Hizb-e-Islami and later on the Taliban.

Back when Russia was occupying Afghanistan, Pakistan supported Mujahideen such as Gulbudin and Ahmed Shah Masood. After Soviet withdrew these factions fought each other and finally when Taliban came, many of these factions formed Northern Alliance, others joined Taliban.

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Do you hate Pakistan?

Sayyaf, would you support NA? Would you?

nice to meet you brother.

Nice to meet you too brother.

I don't see any hope in war, i want their to be peace in Afghanistan. I used to support Taliban, but when i hear terrible stories regarding what Taliban did and how they brainwash little kids to blow themselves up, it really really hurts me.

I don't support war, i support progress towards peace.

[njgirl]

Re: Pakistan debate

I am an ally with Sayyaf on what he said above.

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

I am an ally with Sayyaf on what he said above.

Thank you sister!

[tor_khan]

Re: Do you hate Pakistan?

As for india, its been our enemy since partition. And not only is it our enemy, but its the enemy of every Muslim. We've fought 3 wars with them, we Pashtuns gave our blood for this country and Kashmir, why wouldn't india have a problem with us?

I live in the Arabian Gulf and can tell you that when it comes to a choice between India and Pakistan as a trading partner, India wins hands down.

Pakistan has a poor international image and the only established culture that it has one of international disrepute.

It cannot be said - the way you put it - that India is the sworn enemy of Muslims - the Arabs sell Indian products, be it their spices, their films etc.
Iran, Afghanistan the central Asian Muslim states have very strong ties with India.

Of course this bothers Pakistan, and there you have it, they play the Islam card.

Interesting that you mention partition - Jinnah's two nation theory holds very little credibility anymore, because (a) Muslims are not a nation in the racial sense (neither are Hindus), (b) if they were then the Hindu nation remained as one, whilst the Muslims splintered into at least three (Pakistan, Bangladesh and the vast majority who remained in India). It's no irony that today, Jinnah's living descendants chose India over Pakistan.

India is a colossal giant and needs to fix its relationships with its neighbours, but it is outwardly looking and upwardly mobile. Pakistan is a fascinating place to travel through, but it remains a paranoid state with little trust in its neighbours and quite sadly, is viewed as an international pariah.

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Do you hate Pakistan?

I live in the Arabian Gulf and can tell you that when it comes to a choice between India and Pakistan as a trading partner, India wins hands down.

Of course india wins, it hasn't been plagued by corrupt politicians who are appointed by America.

Pakistan has a poor international image and the only established culture that it has one of international disrepute.

And what wrong did Pakistan do? detonate nukes? Do you know who controls 96% of world media? Jews.......

And do you think jews would accept a Muslim country with nukes? NO! so yeah they will do anything to defame us, and all this "shining india" cr@p is only to use india against Pakistan. You should read David Ben Gurions statement regarding Pakistan and its threat to israel:

“The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. “This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. “Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. “It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.”

-David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister.His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967:

It cannot be said - the way you put it - that India is the sworn enemy of Muslims - the Arabs sell Indian products, be it their spices, their films etc.
Iran, Afghanistan the central Asian Muslim states have very strong ties with India.

lol, your joking right? India is a back stabber i hope you know! Iran was a good ally of india, but when America offered india civilian nuclear tech india voted against Iran in the IAEA and ditched Iran for America.

As for these Arabs, don't expect them to care about your or me. They only want $$. As long as they are able to watch bellydancer and smoke hookah they don't care about who is dying, even if its their own Muslim brethren. Heck, these Arabs go to mumbai to spend a night with their indian mistresses. These same Arabs watched israel slaughter Palestinians, these same Arabs of Saudi called india their second home, the same india that occupies Kashmir with brute force, these same Saudi gave Conaleeza Rice a full gold and diamond jewelry set, the same Conaleeza who supported massacres of Afghans and Iraqis. So if these Arabs make friends india it doesn't surprise me.

Of course this bothers Pakistan, and there you have it, they play the Islam card.

I guess you haven't learned history have you? Pakistan sacrificed and did more for Islam then any other Muslim country! We helped the Arabs fight israel during the Arab-israeli wars of 1967 and 1973, Pakistan helped to liberate Kashmir, we helped the bosnians fight the serbs, we supported Afghan resistance against Russia and allowed over more than 5 million refuges into Pakistan (don't forget how iran was kicking you people out). Pakistan gave Iran and Libya nuclear know how.

Interesting that you mention partition - Jinnah's two nation theory holds very little credibility anymore, because (a) Muslims are not a nation in the racial sense (neither are Hindus), (b) if they were then the Hindu nation remained as one, whilst the Muslims splintered into at least three (Pakistan, Bangladesh and the vast majority who remained in India). It's no irony that today, Jinnah's living descendants chose India over Pakistan.

What??????? :?:

So your saying Pakistan shouldn't have been created? My friend, educate yourself. Do you know what these hindus do to Muslims in india? They don't consider Muslims as their own countrymen.

http://www.markthetruth.com/minority-is ... dians.html

http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2008/12/1 ... -massacre/

India is a colossal giant and needs to fix its relationships with its neighbours, but it is outwardly looking and upwardly mobile. Pakistan is a fascinating place to travel through, but it remains a paranoid state with little trust in its neighbours and quite sadly, is viewed as an international pariah.

so your saying india has no problems with its neighbors? Do you know how many innocent Bengalis were killed recently by indian BSF (Border Security Force)? Do you know that india was supporting the LTTE in Sri Lanka who are recognized internationally as a terrorist organization? Do you know that india was supporting the MAOISTS of nepal to overthrow the Nepalese Government?


India doesn't care about you Afghans, they are only USING your soil against Pakistan and that's it.

[khansahab]

Re: Pakistan debate

This is getting interesting here.

welcome to PF Sayyaf Khana oh and Tor Khan is from Pakistan lol.

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

Sayyaf raised some interesting points.

Welcome to PF wrora, Afghans love Pakistani itizens they are our brothers.

Pakistan ka matlab kya? La ilaha illallah

Thank you brothers, your too kind, i really appreciate your hospitality. May Allah bless both our countries and may Allah bless us with a prosperous future. Ameen!

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

I'm looking forward to others contributing to this debate! Anyone?

[Roshina]

Re: Do you hate Pakistan?

When a Pashtun who was born on the eastern side of Durand Line says, "I hate Pakistan," those Pashtuns who love Pakistan say, "How can you be a Pakistani and hate Pakistan, your OWN country?" This is a matter of identity -- a political identity, that is -- and we shouldn't forget that. What REALLY does it mean to say you hate a certain country? Much of the world hates America; does that mean they hate American people or the American government/army/officials? I doubt it means they hate the American people, the average American person. And if they do, they must not know any Americans in person or have never had any direct contact with Americans other than through the biased media. (This is the case with Muslims as well, the way Muslims are represented in the biased media.)

As for me, I have a problem with the way Pakistan was created. It still haunts me that the Pashtuns were NOT given the option of choose an independent state for ourselves OR to choose to be reunited with Afghanistan. We were given only two options: Choose either Pakistan or India. Being Muslim and fooled to believe that Pakistan was "an Islamic state built to give freedom to pious, Islam-loving Muslims," we went with Pakistan because we were/are not Hindus.

Pakistan is a *Muslim* state, not an *Islamic* one. We shouldn't forget that. Many a times, we tend to confuse the two.

I also have a problem with Pakistan's government, its army, and all its other officials. I don't have to elaborate the government side, 'cause I'm sure everyone agrees its government is sick and greedy. Its army is/was supposedly the 7th largest in the world, and how long did it take them to help the Taliban-dominated region? Even now, how many *real* Taliban have they killed? How many Taliban *leaders* have been killed? I don't buy the "hey, they imprisoned Muslim Khan! Woot woot" crap; we need him, Muslim Khan, and the other main leaders dead. Killed. They caused the displacement of over 2.5 million Pashtuns, and what did Pakistan do about it? Every day, we hear that they killed such and such militant; oh, really?

I do *not* have a problem with Pakistanis -- the people of Pakistan, that is. It's never the average person who is a threat to any particular or all groups within a nation. Neither is it ever the average person who represents the country; it's always a certain elite member of a certain class who usurps power, *claiming* to represent *the people*. In reality, that's rarely, if ever, true.

So when we say we hate Pakistan, it shouldn't come off to mean we hate the people who live there; it means we disapprove of the leadership of those who claim to represent the country. Or at least that's what I mean. Can't speak for all.

It's another thing, however, when people say, "I hate Punjabis," or "Punjabis are bad." That's just generalization and racism, in my opinion, and I think it's narrow-mindedness as well. It's unfair to blame an entire group of people for the faults of a certain faction among them.

[Roshina]

Re: Pakistan debate

@ Sayyaf Khan wror, you do not give evidence for any of the claims you make. Please cite them so we can confirm them ourselves, kana. For instance:

So this is why we Pakistanis get worried when india comes into Afghanistan, we shouldn't forget that it was india who funded the terrorist group "Mukhti Bahini" in East Pakistan and then finally violated and crossed the international border of East Pakistan with its army.

You're not implying, I'm sure, that India is the only country that funds terrorists groups, right? And that Pakistan doesn't support terrorism, right? (Ignore what they tell us in the media; look into its distribution of the funds it receives.)

I have no problem with Afghans, your my brothers and sisters, but ever since Afghan governments in the past began to intervene in Indo-Pak conflict we had no choice but to resort to supporting groups such as Taliban.

This is unclear to me. Please re-phrase it when you have time; I really want to understand what you mean and don't wanna make any assumptions.

Pakistan is trying its best to stabilize Afghanistan today

Evidence for this?

we want both Karzai, Northern Alliance, and Taliban to merge together and form a strong and friendly Afghanistan that will stay neutral in Pakistan-india conflict. We can't have a Afghanistan that the indians will use against us because this will force us to fight on two fronts, Afghanistan and on the other front india's million man army. We don't have resources and economy to fight such a war.,

Who's "we"? Who are you speaking for? The average peace-seeking Pakistani citizen/resident, or the government of Pakistan?

India doesn't care about Afghan blood, they only want to destroy Pakistan

To the Pakistan-loving being, it's "India hates Pakistan and wants to destroy it."
To the anti-Pakistan Pashtun, it's "Pakistan hates Afghans/Pashtuns and wants to destroy us, whether we're in Pakistan or Afghanistan!"

We've discussed Pakistan's role in the creation and nurturing of Taliban in another thread; it's a commonly accepted fact that Pakistan, through funds from the U.S., nurtures Taliban and created them as well. I will provide evidence if I need to.

[pekhawar]

Re: Pakistan debate

lets see what Sayyaf has for a rebuttal.

[Roshina]

Re: Pakistan debate

Oh, and as they say, History is recorded by the victorious.
That means whatever we read is always biased. ALWAYS. It's always one-sided, and to find a neutral perspective on historical records, you have to look really, really hard but even often in vain.

Now, since it's always someone's perspective and someone's interpretation of certain events, and we know that what we read about Pakistan's history is *always* pro-Pakistan (in our schools in Pakistan, I mean), let's try to take some time out of our lives to read other perspectives of Pakistani history as well. There's a book called Facts are Facts (also titled Facts are Sacred) by our own Khan Abdul Wali Khan. It's the untold story of India's partition, another version of a history related to the Pashtuns.

I've heard it's available in Urdu, Pukhto, and English, and I read it in English. It's accessible online, too, and I'm tryina find it. If anyone else finds it before me, please give the link here. Thanks in advance.

The book offers a *completely* different outlook on Pakistani history, and your impression of the very much revered Qaid Azam might change as well. He provides evidence for whatever he says, too, so that makes it more credible and trustworthy.

[Roshina]

Re: Pakistan debate

Oh! Here's the link to an online version of Facts are Sacred by Wali Khan.

It is a must-read for all Pakistanis and Pukhtuns, regardless of their feelings for Pakistan and Pukhtuns.

[njgirl]

Re: Pakistan debate

Qrratugai,
Damn, You went in.