what is nationlism?

[akbarkhan]

if we speak the cruel regime of pakist we are blamed to be racist.

You should be careful with how you spell "pakistan" on this forum, its one of the seven deadly sins if you make spelling mistakes or if you provide an alternative spelling for Pakistan which best describes that-soon-to-be region of Greater Afghanistan.

[pir_Rokhan]

Originally Posted by akbarkhan

I don't subscribe to any of the current march or marsh of caliphate banners.

I believe in classic endeavors that brought forward the dawn of Andalus and the era where Afghans reigned over a vast region with fists of iron on oppressors and offering helpful hand to the oppressed - where the Muslim youth were at the forefront of technological and scientific advances as a result of which the world is what it is now.

We reminisce and hence struggle for the the coming of such an age. You can mock or mark my words, this age is round the corner and its radiant rays can be witnessed by eyes trained to see the tides of history and the promise of Allah is not like a glass that could be shattered. I understand the ground realities and the task ahead. I understand that too many have used and abused the name of Islam and I understand that too many have subscribed to Islam without knowing what it is or what it stands for. I am not here to shove faith or political Islam down your throat nor do I have the liberty of time to explain my stance elaborately.

But in the trenches of humble counsel I have learnt that in the midst of turmoil and chaos those who offer a helping hand (Pakistan, iran, saudi arabia etc) do so for one or more of the following reasons.

1. National interest.
2. Regional ambitions.
3. Common enemy.
4. Ideological commonalities. (Rare amongst the Ummah)

The statesman who can understand and decipher these four points and the applications thereof will be able to maneuver and turn the table around for Afghanistan without compromising Islam and Muslims.
I appreciate your courage however all of those who use one or another banner claim that they believe in the classic endevours.Their literature is full of this claim. You can check it for yourself.

The dawn of Andulus with the advent of Abdur Rahman ad dakhil, who was an Arab or the arrival of Mohammad bin Qasim to India were all aimed at increasing the radius of the arab empire not to invite people to Islam.


Afghans established their organized state in 1747 under Ahmed Shah Baba not by inviting the Afghan tribes to pan caliphate but by inviting them to Pukhtunvali and to unite them. It was only the battle of pani pat which was fought at the advice or request of Shahwaliullah but he left India after defeating marhattas and came back to Kandahar.


Your suggestion is purely the strategy of ISI for Afghanisatn.They want to make Afghanistan their fifth province and keep it dependent on ISI by telling Afghans and specially the Pashtuns of South that:


It is in the national interest of Afghanistan that Pashtuns should fight and sacrifice their lives for Islam [while basically they mean for Pakistani/Punjabi imperialism].


They tell Afghans that our regional goals are also common as Afghanistan is land locked and we will give trade route to the exports of Afghanistan through gwadar.Hence we have common regional goals of mutual trade.[Not knowing that there is a freedom struggle in Baluchistan and the Pakhtun belt literally hates Pakistan due to Punjabi domination]


ISI tells that we are Muslims and India is our common enemy we need to cooperate [by cooperate they mean that we need to destabilize Afghanistan and use it for our strategic depth against India so Afghans might go to hell and keep living in hell but the Punjabi generals in the army should not weaken the India phobia propaganda in Pakistan and hence keep the reigns of power by giving no chance to political process to prosper and encourage the army puppets like the raiwind based ISI stooge Nawaz Sharif]


Final pill of hypnotism to given to the religion infected disillusioned Afghans by the ISI is that they tell them we are MUSLIMS and hence brothers. While the death and destruction which these brown slaves of the Brits have brought to Afghan people is immense. Thirty years these brown sahibs have destroyed Afghanistan and killed their kids, women, youngsters and elderly by rewarding some bigots with some bucks which they got from CIA and looting the rest of the money to strengthen their army and hence Punjabi elite in Pakistan.

The latest proof of this brotherhood and akkhuwa is that Pakistan demonize the Tribal Maseeds Taliban in Pakistan while project the Taliban of Afghanistan as angels who have come from the heavens. The reason is that the Maseed Taliban are against the banana republic of Pakistan while the Afghan Taliban are against Afghanistan. They are happy if Afghan Taliban makes a chaos in already disturbed country of Pashtuns as it is in their interests to keep Afghanistan backward in the name of religion and brotherhood but they do not want that the Maseed Taliban break the buildings of Lahore and Islamabad which have been constructed at the cost of Pashtuns blood.


Fatabir ya sahibaul absar


Good luck with your pearls of wisdom for the Afghan nation and bad luck for the Afghans. I am done.

[afghan]

You should be careful with how you spell "pakistan" on this forum, its one of the seven deadly sins if you make spelling mistakes or if you provide an alternative spelling for Pakistan which best describes that-soon-to-be region of Greater Afghanistan.

i try very hard to spell it correctly, but when i see "pak" means pure i cannt write it completely dont wanna say the rest.

[akbarkhan]

Akbar Jaana, welcome here.


how do you describe Nationalism? In your own words.


pleasure to meet you.

Salam alaikom,

In short, nationalism is a pretension that tries to fill an ideological vaccum sowing potent seeds that leads a nation-state to aggression and imperialism i.e Thomas Jefferson's America, Israeli Zionism, Bonaparte's France.

Where individuals are concerned nationalism leads to narcissism and individualism, hence it is a selfish pseudo-religion that goes against all the principles of Islam and Islamic brotherhood.

Let me put it this way, the Israelites knew that Mohammad pbuh was the final Prophet but they did not accept him because he was a gentile (non-israelite). They didn't accept Mohammad pbuh because of their nationalist creed, they said "we have a richer history than Arabs" how can we accept an Arab as the last prophet when we are a greater civilization.

[akbarkhan]

The dawn of Andulus with the advent of Abdur Rahman ad dakhil, who was an Arab or the arrival of Mohammad bin Qasim to India were all aimed at increasing the radius of the arab empire not to invite people to Islam.


Afghans established their organized state in 1747 under Ahmed Shah Baba not by inviting the Afghan tribes to pan caliphate but by inviting them to Pukhtunvali and to unite them. It was only the battle of pani pat which was fought at the advice or request of Shahwaliullah but he left India after defeating marhattas and came back to Kandahar.


Your suggestion is purely the strategy of ISI for Afghanisatn.They want to make Afghanistan their fifth province and keep it dependent on ISI by telling Afghans and specially the Pashtuns of South that:


It is in the national interest of Afghanistan that Pashtuns should fight and sacrifice their lives for Islam [while basically they mean for Pakistani/Punjabi imperialism].


They tell Afghans that our regional goals are also common as Afghanistan is land locked and we will give trade route to the exports of Afghanistan through gwadar.Hence we have common regional goals of mutual trade.[Not knowing that there is a freedom struggle in Baluchistan and the Pakhtun belt literally hates Pakistan due to Punjabi domination]


ISI tells that we are Muslims and India is our common enemy we need to cooperate [by cooperate they mean that we need to destabilize Afghanistan and use it for our strategic depth against India so Afghans might go to hell and keep living in hell but the Punjabi generals in the army should not weaken the India phobia propaganda in Pakistan and hence keep the reigns of power by giving no chance to political process to prosper and encourage the army puppets like the raiwind based ISI stooge Nawaz Sharif]


Final pill of hypnotism to given to the religion infected disillusioned Afghans by the ISI is that they tell them we are MUSLIMS and hence brothers. While the death and destruction which these brown slaves of the Brits have brought to Afghan people is immense. Thirty years these brown sahibs have destroyed Afghanistan and killed their kids, women, youngsters and elderly by rewarding some bigots with some bucks which they got from CIA and looting the rest of the money to strengthen their army and hence Punjabi elite in Pakistan.

The latest proof of this brotherhood and akkhuwa is that Pakistan demonize the Tribal Maseeds Taliban in Pakistan while project the Taliban of Afghanistan as angels who have come from the heavens. The reason is that the Maseed Taliban are against the banana republic of Pakistan while the Afghan Taliban are against Afghanistan. They are happy if Afghan Taliban makes a chaos in already disturbed country of Pashtuns as it is in their interests to keep Afghanistan backward in the name of religion and brotherhood but they do not want that the Maseed Taliban break the buildings of Lahore and Islamabad which have been constructed at the cost of Pashtuns blood.


Fatabir ya sahibaul absar


Good luck with your pearls of wisdom for the Afghan nation and bad luck for the Afghans. I am done.

For your information, I am an advocate of Loy Afghanistan. I wholeheartedly see Pakistan as an illegitimate British child and I see Iran as a little kid that needs to be smacked in the mouth to be reminded of its position.

Good luck with your nationalist agenda, you might be able to fool a few gullibledim-wits but those who count will be not fooled with such fallacious dogmas.

[pir_Rokhan]

Akbar Khana

You are equating racism with Nationalism. Jews disapproval of Muhammad was due to racial supremacy [racism] not due to their struggle for self determination ,fight for the rights, resistecne against agression ,explloitation etc.

[akbarkhan]

Akbar Khana

You are equating racism with Nationalism. Jews disapproval of Muhammad was due to racial supremacy [racism] not due to their struggle for self determination ,fight for the rights, resistecne against agression ,explloitation etc.

I am not equating them, I am reinforcing an established fact - nationalism is an early stage of racism.

[pir_Rokhan]

For your information, I am an advocate of Loy Afghanistan. I wholeheartedly see Pakistan as an illegitimate British child and I see Iran as a little kid that needs to be smacked in the mouth to be reminded of its position.

Good luck with your nationalist agenda, you might be able to fool a few gullibledim-wits but those who count will be not fooled with such fallacious dogmas.

I totally agree with your idea of Loy Afghanistan. I am dead sure you are just misunderstanding what I am saying due to your apprehensions of faith.

Trust me I have absolutely no issues with what you believe in personally. I just think we should keep religion away from Politics knowing that Afghans are predominanatly muslims and I have no objection over it.

I just asked you if you think religion offers a SOCIO-POLITICO-ECONOMIC solution then let me know we can discuss it.

[pir_Rokhan]

I am not equating them, I am reinforcing an established fact - nationalism is an early stage of racism.

Nation state and nationalism are recent concepts - a modern one - some hundred years old while racism is thousands of years old. How on earth can nationalism be an early stage of racism. Please read any book on political science it defines nationalism as an ideology to safeguard national interets of a state ,its sovergnty,sef determination etc. Racism is a different ball game altogeter.

Stanford dictionary of Philosophy for example defines it as:

The term “nationalism” is generally used to describe two phenomena:
(1) the attitude that the members of a nation have when they care about their national identity and (2) the actions that the members of a nation take when seeking to achieve (or sustain) self-determination.

What you have stated are your personal judgements instead of recognised defintitions ,and this is common in all religios people unfortunately that they are highly judgemental.

[akbarkhan]

I totally agree with your idea of Loy Afghanistan. I am dead sure you are just misunderstanding what I am saying due to your apprehensions of faith.

Trust me I have absolutely no issues with what you believe in personally. I just think we should keep religion away from Politics knowing that Afghans are predominanatly muslims and I have no objection over it.

I just asked you if you think religion offers a SOCIO-POLITICO-ECONOMIC solution then let me know we can discuss it.

If you are going to discuss law & anthropology then you should understand semantics. You can not just utter words and terminologies impulsively and then state you are being misunderstood.

According to Augustine religion is a ritual or a repetitive action to praise a deity. Islam is not a religion, its not as simple as repetitive rituals observed to praise a Allah swt. Islam is a Deen - a complete way of life that encompasses all aspects of human life be it political, social, marital, financial or spiritual.

When Allah swt revealed the verse "and today we have perfected your Deen", it meant that laws and legislations governing all aspects of human life have been laid down. Even the Western disbelievers can not argue that fact, that is why Mohammad PBUH is number 1 on the list of The 100 Most Influential Persons in History. He appear on the number one spot because he covered all aspects of human life, political, social, financial, marital and spiritual.

When you say that Islam and politics should not be mixed, you are indirectly stating that we human beings have a better knowledge of anthropology than Allah swt. This is Shirk.

You think that Allah forgot to teach us politics and prematurely said that "today we have perfected your deen(complete way of life)"?

[akbarkhan]

Welcome Akbaar Jaana to PashtunForums.

It's an honor and pleasure to have you here.


My question:

you stated you advocate for loy Afghanistan.

Loy Afghanistan requires nationalism.

How do you expect to achieve your dream of Loy Afghanistan?

I find it really absurd when our intellectuals promote secularism yet they fail to see that every single move that the Kufar make are based on Islamic principles! Loy Afghanistan does not require nationalism, nationalism is obsolete that is why the once warring and belligerent nationalist European states are now forming a political union called EU. The Kufar are implementing what Muslims should be implementing, a political union aka khilafa.


Freedom is the most expensive possession in the world, it costs and we must be ready to cough up for it. Loy Afghanistan requires faith in Allah swt, solidarity, sacrifice and above all clear vision. There are precendents for everything in history, if the Sahaba made it all the way to Spain why can't we achieve something that is a stone's throw away from us using their methodology and approach?

[pir_Rokhan]

Your definitions are all based on your faith and its specific interpretation. One has to be a muslim [and believing in your interpretation] to get convinced while it sould be otherway round.You should have sufficient logical arguments to convince someone to be a muslim and to be convinced about your interpretation.

let me tell you that whatever ALLAH says has to be interpreted in the terms of man and this defining depends upon man level of intellect and knowledge which he has discovered over the years.

This is the reason that the interpretations of almost every word has evolved over time.Read te exegesis of those Arabs bedoins and now a days modern scholars you will see the difference.

They even did not approve of translating the quran unless Shah waliullah did it into farsi.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

For your information, I am an advocate of Loy Afghanistan. I wholeheartedly see Pakistan as an illegitimate British child and I see Iran as a little kid that needs to be smacked in the mouth to be reminded of its position.

Good luck with your nationalist agenda, you might be able to fool a few gullibledim-wits but those who count will be not fooled with such fallacious dogmas.

Ok...Lets leave Aside Western terms such as Nationalist and Nationalism. I am also a advocate of Loy Afghanistan, and see Pakistan as a threat to our interests and unity, I also can not neglect Islam as our faith and a strong role in our tribal unity as one Pashtun, but however, I feel that people such as me and you are labelled Nationalists on bad terms, we can have a strong unified nation, follow Islam, and be one people, but logical things need to be looked at as well, meaning, in todays world, its very hard and extremely political to even think of a Khalifate, plus there is the issue of the 1000's of different approaches as Pir rokhan stated.

In regards to my comment about Arabs, I basically was trying to say, that our identity and culture outdates the Arabs who push their identity onto us by using Islam, taking the Algerian Professor as an example, I wasnt in anyway trying to be Racist.

The racist kind of Nationalism for which you are speaking about,is the National Socialism such as Nazism etc, In regards to Pashtuns unity, if we fight for our land, our culture, our language, our people, the same pashtun people who are being slaughtered by fellow Muslims in Karachi, the same Pashtuns who are arrested and subjected to unwarranted searches of their homes in Punjab,how can we allow these people to subject us to such cruelty and on the other side and then unite with them under the name of Islam, the world is cruel and one shouldnt day dream, there threats everywhere, there are empires everywhere, we need to establish our own empire which consists soley of our whole region which are prodominately Pashtun.

Our Pashtunism, does not preach imperialism onto smaller minorities or out of our prodominately pashtun areas.

Remmeber this Akber Jan, we are just like Kurds, stuck in the middle of empires who feed on us, how long will it take before we realise this?

When we fight foreigners on our Land(I.E Nato etc) we shouldnt need Arabs and Punjabis etc to be within our units, its our land, the problem is solely ours, So no Alqueda etc has a right on our land or to mess in our affairs. Afghanistan government is packed full of corrupted rapists, drug warlords, ISI agents, CIA agents etc, these people feed on our misery, so why encourage this misery? If we unite as Pashtuns and soley Pashtuns instead of pulling the Islam card because not all Pashtuns follow the same school of thought, then we will reduce the risk of furthur infighting amongst us and work to develop our land to make it strong.

Always remmeber this, Pakistan always wants a strong Islamic loyal Party in the Afghanistan governmment, and the Taliban government was a great example, many known taliban figures across the durrand line(imginary border) were FC officers and Paksitani soliders such as turkistan bhittani and zainudeen mahsud,even Ilyas Kashmiri a Militant commander of a Punjabi militant group was a SSG commando, all these people will always have a Pakistani Agenda in Afghanistan, but how should we face them?

The only cure is to fight for our Unity, Protect our womans from people outside our borders, preserve our culture and national unity, protect our borders form agencies etc, we should also stop fighting amongst us and through this unity, issues such as tribalism would vanish, its due to lack of rule and law, we have this whole tribalism issue, I dont trust a Wazir, simple as that, because i know if i go to a wazir dominated area, they would kill me, if our unity works, then maybe one day i could visit a wazir area without concern of my life and we would greet eachother as Pashtuns instead of tribes.

regards

[akbarkhan]

Your definitions are all based on your faith and its specific interpretation. One has to be a muslim [and believing in your interpretation] to get convinced while it sould be otherway round.You should have sufficient logical arguments to convince someone to be a muslim and to be convinced about your interpretation.

let me tell you that whatever ALLAH says has to be interpreted in the terms of man and this defining depends upon man level of intellect and knowledge which he has discovered over the years.

This is the reason that the interpretations of almost every word has evolved over time.Read te exegesis of those Arabs bedoins and now a days modern scholars you will see the difference.

They even did not approve of translating the quran unless Shah waliullah did it into farsi.

Take it with a pinch of salt or leave it. I knew I had not misunderstood you, I meet individuals such as yourself very often in my line of business hence I am fully accustomed with tricks of such trade.

[akbarkhan]

Akbar Jaana, may I ask you a question dear brother?

Please do, dearest sister.