Taliban

[MDresden]

You're not incorrect, but if those practices were used or assumed, we wouldn't have been here for 10 years.

[Pashtun_Ultranationalist]

First you have to realize its not just the Taliban who is fighting. There are insurgents who turn their guns on each other all the time. There are NA groups who turn their guns on each other also. The people are fighting and resources is not just raw resources. Freedom is a resource. The ability to practice your religion is a resource. The ability to live without being caught in a crossfire is a resource. The ability to live without the fear of being bombed by warplanes and being mistaken for insurgents is a resource.

Im no fan of the Taliban, just because I believe that America is better served spending its resources to build New Orlean which is an attainable goal than spend its resources on something that is not attainable like the Karzai government who does nothing for its people does not make me a Talib. But I do like to side with the facts. The Taliban did provide security at the cost of freedoms. As George Bush said "Freedom aint free." That also goes for security. Security is not free either. The Taliban did free the country from opium production. There was very little corruption with the Taliban. etc. etc.
What has the Karzai government accomplished besides stealing from its people. Isnt the incompetence of the Karzai government the reason why this mess exists.

What kind of Security did the Taliban bring? Publically executing Women, selling off the timber industry for pennies to Pakistan? Hosting some of the worlds worst terror groups?

Or opening Afghanistan to some of the world's most deluded and neglected outkast Clerics, to open a base to spread their hateful messages upon the world on the expense of the Afghan people?

I could turn Afghanistan into a Police state and bring 100 percent protection, but if thats done on the basis of Pakistan's interests, then its dodgy and corrupted.

[Pashtun_Ultranationalist]

You're not incorrect, but if those practices were used or assumed, we wouldn't have been here for 10 years.

The prolonged presence, is due to the wrong information given to your by your own allies i.e Pakistan. Look mate, there is a place called DI Khan in Pakistan, there is a part of it called medina colony, there is the base of the Abdullah Mahsud group led by Misdabudden Maseed, brother of slain commander Zainudeen Mahsud who happens to also be a former Pakistani Army border guard.

That base is infested with Pro Pakistan Afghan Taliban units, I am sure America knows this, but no strong response from them neither?

People assume, the public like these Taliban, rest assured, these Talibs rob and steal, kidnap and take what they want in DI Khan, Police and Army never interfear.

Locating their Logistics is the main weapon one can use against them. Taliban wont fight without a bullet or a gun, they are useless at politics and most are just fighters, the commanders are led by bigger commanders who happen to live in safe houses in Pakistan.

Pakistan should be the target, not Afghanistan.

[khushal]

That is why the Pashtun region is one of the most backward regions in the world,and due to this backwardness and vulnerability and all these stories of how Invicible Pashtuns are, we are misled and exploited by much realistic powerful people i.e Punjabi elite and Arab states.

Pashtuns can be reformed, and we was reformed until Warlords being sheltered by Pakistan were given space and freedom to regroup. Those developments were not a threat towards the way of the Pashtun people, actually infact, most of those who were communists were actually Pashtuns themselves especially the young lot at the time.

Khushal, this is where I stress alot, if it wasnt for Pakistan, those wars would have ever happened. Pakistan played a direct role in protecting Militia's and Warlords who opposed reformation and modernisation, and gave them the protection and training to become their future stooges.

Was the Civil war a result of the way of the Pashtun or the lifestyle of a Pashtun, the looting of hospitals? banks? killings of singers and teachers, expelling the educational board and scaring of the intellectual community? is this a result of the Pashtun way of life being threatened by reformation?

NO my friend, it is not, We was fooled into becoming stooges of others, its as simple as that, my hate for Pakistan is very much deep rooted, I know very well and I am not naive, If Pakistan never got itself involved with the likes of the Peshawer Seven and co, or Ahmad Shah Masood and Hekmatyar, Afghanistan's masses would have forcibly reformed themselves, just as we witnessed in Russia,when the working class booted the monarchy out hence a developed,equal unified Russia instead of one ruled by greedy kings and superstitious clerics.

In the case of Pashtuns, we are open to reformation, but I am afraid to say, we are the puppets of worser powers, i.e Arabian Spiritual Sqaud and the Punjabi Henchmen.

While I agree with you that reform can happen in pashtun society but the way to go about it is something else. Reform is a very slow process and it is usually done at urban centers first. Rural populations are very conservative and stubborn to change.
It was not Pakistan that created the mess in Afghanistan. Pakistan never had the ability to create such destruction to its neighbor. It was America entrapping the Soviets into a quagmire by forcing the Soviets to militarily expand its empire to a point where its economy could not sustain the expansion causing it to implode vastly decreasing its economic and military abilities. That is why I say that any present or future Afghan government will never trust the US, it will be more loyal to Russia, China, or Iran before regarding the US even though it needs the US more.

[Whisley 2-6]

MDresden,
That doesn't answer the questions I asked above.

Different American. I did reply to your post.

[khushal]

What kind of Security did the Taliban bring? Publically executing Women, selling off the timber industry for pennies to Pakistan? Hosting some of the worlds worst terror groups?

Or opening Afghanistan to some of the world's most deluded and neglected outkast Clerics, to open a base to spread their hateful messages upon the world on the expense of the Afghan people?

I could turn Afghanistan into a Police state and bring 100 percent protection, but if thats done on the basis of Pakistan's interests, then its dodgy and corrupted.

Your hate for Pakistan is gone to a point where it is unhealthy. Pakistan is naturally going to do what is necessary for its best interests. But the chaos that existed before the Taliban took over was far worse than after they took over. Those same people that created the chaos in the early 90's are now in power in Kabul who again have failed the afghan people.

It was America that gave Pakistan the opportunity to destroy Afghanistan, just like America gives Israel the opportunity to mistreat the Palistinians and the opportunity for Saddam to wage war on Iran etc etc. I can go on and on. America is hated in the region. It should work to better its image.

[MDresden]

Maybe Kushal...maybe. I'll PM you a sec ok?

[khushal]

What kind of Security did the Taliban bring? Publically executing Women, selling off the timber industry for pennies to Pakistan? Hosting some of the worlds worst terror groups?

Or opening Afghanistan to some of the world's most deluded and neglected outkast Clerics, to open a base to spread their hateful messages upon the world on the expense of the Afghan people?

I could turn Afghanistan into a Police state and bring 100 percent protection, but if thats done on the basis of Pakistan's interests, then its dodgy and corrupted.

Ultra.
You have to realize that the insurgency in Afghanistan is real with legit disputes against the government. Pakistan is not capable to wage such a strong insurgency whose main source of power is political not militarily. If Pakistan was capable to wage such an insurgency than they would have done it against India to wrestle Kashmir from them. How come they can not do the same in India who is far weaker than the US is. You can not compare what the US is capable of vs what India is capable of. You are marginalizing the disenfranchised Pashtuns who have legitimate concerns about their future in Afghanistan.

[Whisley 2-6]

As a soldier, you are able to exert influence. (1)The least you could possibly do is sit down with competent leaders, and sort of identify the root cause behind this "insurgency", as you might call it. You must view this problem in a much more broader sense, the people whom have picked up weapons are (2)simply attacking you because they have lost their children's, and witnessed the death of innocent civilians that were returning from school, etc. None of which, attacked our USA. (3)Pashtuns have a strict code of revenge. In fact, just to offer you a better image, 'grilling' someones wife could equate to getting punched in the face in that side of the town. Imagine what killing one equates too. You, as an American, must realize that there was (4)not a single Afghan involved in 9/11. Heck, just today the NYTIMES published an interesting article which I posted earlier elaborating on this.

I'll try not to selectively quote you here...

1)Influencing policy is not the"least I could do." Its out of the question. I am not a diplomat, nor do I hold elected office, nor do I posses sufficent military rank to create doctrine. In this, I am equally frustrated as you.

2)Not that simple and you know it. Like I said earlier, I fight and kill mostly foreign fighters and young, single Afghans. Its just disingenuious to portray the insurgency as a well meaning group of disenfranchised Afghans. Consider your audience here, and if you truly believe this perhaps you should come to Paktika.

3)Got it. Also as a westerner, we can agree to disagree on the treatment of women as property. Its not sustainable.

4)Got that too. No disagreement

But why have they picked up weapons? That's my question. Do you not think it's because of killing innocent people, and later apologizing for it? (1)You can't just wipe off a village, and later get upset as to why the elders of the village are walking around with weapons. When you demonize the Pashtun ethnic group, and accidentally kill a few innocent people, uproar that you might have witnessed is bound to happen. All those (2)anti-NATO protests you are witnessing is not because they "love" the Taliban. It's because some trusted you, and the US in response brought corrupt war-lords, along with the inception of uncalled air strikes in the broader image. I can personally tell you that there was a time when Afghans loved America with a passion. Which resulted in hundreds of thousands of educated Afghans settling in New York and California. (3)Some which are now 2nd generation Americans.

1) Again, can we please tone down the rhetoric. Its 10 years into this fight and even the Taliban understand we don't "wipe off villages."

2)Completely agree

3)We are a better country for it.

Well, someone has to be blamed, right? I agree that working on eradicating the problem is the primary objective, but (1)recognizing that a problem exists should be the first thing we should be doing. I am glad you agree that the USA had brought in corrupt powerful warlords into power, that have done nothing but flex their muscles in bribing the locals.

1) Step one: Complete
Step two: Rally the people to engage in the process that has been foisted upon them at gunpoint. Nevermind NATO has indelicately brought a broken democracy to Afghanistan. Arguing about how things came to be is like arguing with a camel. It makes one feel better but it won't change a thing. Get involved in shaping Afghanistan into something that you know in your heart is best for the people. If you truly feel that is Taliban rule than so be it. I hope for your sake and the sake of your countrymen they disagree with you in sufficent numbers.

Yes, it did happen and that served as a great tool to rally up anti-American support. (1)In fact, one American went as far as spewing a lot of nonsense.

" In order to make sure that all the citizens of Afghanistan have the opportunity to come to know Jesus, and hopefully convert to the “right” religion, a group called the Revival Fire Ministry had Bibles printed up in Pashto and Dari, the chief languages of Afghanistan. Al-Jazeera has captured footage of military chaplains in Bagram that were in possession of these Bibles, and also shot footage of one of the chaplains telling the soldiers to “be witnesses for [Jesus]. The special forces guys – they hunt men basically. We do the same things as Christians; we hunt people for Jesus. We do, we hunt them down. Get the hound of heaven after them, so that we get them into the kingdom. That’s what we do, that’s our business”. The missionary on the front porch may be wearing a smile, but he’s also wearing a gun…a very big gun, and he drove up in a tank. Honey, I think we’d better let him in, and maybe even invite him to dinner"
Printer-Friendly: One Military Under God

(2)There is not a single functioning University in the South.

1) There are just a ton of idiots everywhere, America is certainly no exception. In my opinion these people have more in common with the people the claim to oppose than they would acknowledge. There are plenty more where this came from as well. It is the voice of hate, no question about it.

2) Lets get on that then. I think you should be a professor there. Unless there are security concerns what with all the angry villagers who have "picked up guns". Please come here. Please see what is happening on the border. Please stop pointing fingers and start rolling up sleeves.

Respectfully,

Matt

[faye]

but isn't there a lot of work you could be doing in america to make your own country safe. don't you have rape there every 2 minutes? don't you have an abundance of homeless people? don't you have areas where a white person is not safe to walk?
why you need to go murdering afghans when you could be righting your own wrongs and get the killers and rapists off your own streets?

[MDresden]

True Faye. It's one of the reasons I wish we draw down asap. I'm one of those that wishes we would take the time to fix our own issues at home.

[Whisley 2-6]

but isn't there a lot of work you could be doing in america to make your own country safe. don't you have rape there every 2 minutes? don't you have an abundance of homeless people? don't you have areas where a white person is not safe to walk?
why you need to go murdering afghans when you could be righting your own wrongs and get the killers and rapists off your own streets?

Faye,

Why do you think there are Americans in Afghanistan? I know that must sound patronizing but its really not. I am genuinely curious. BTW there are a ton of problems in the US, not limited to the ones you mention. I'm not disagreeing that we shouldn't focus on those instead of trying to police the world. I do think however that there are imperfect things worth protecting and nurturing here. For what its worth, its easy to say things like I "need to go murdering Afghans" from the comfort of a computer that is obviously not here in Paktika. Frankly, that just hurts my feelings. Even as strangers, we can disagree without being disagreeable. Sufficed to say, your own life would be drastically different if you were here and I were wherever you are. I understand the anger, I just wish more people would focus it into productive energies rather than venting at some soldier on the internet.

Respectfully,

Matt

[Pashtun_Ultranationalist]

Your hate for Pakistan is gone to a point where it is unhealthy. Pakistan is naturally going to do what is necessary for its best interests. But the chaos that existed before the Taliban took over was far worse than after they took over. Those same people that created the chaos in the early 90's are now in power in Kabul who again have failed the afghan people.

It was America that gave Pakistan the opportunity to destroy Afghanistan, just like America gives Israel the opportunity to mistreat the Palistinians and the opportunity for Saddam to wage war on Iran etc etc. I can go on and on. America is hated in the region. It should work to better its image.

Zia Ul haq invited America, not America forced itself. Please get facts correct.

Don't get faye excited with your Anti-Americanism, Pakistan introduced America to the region, Plus Faye shouldnt get too excited, as Pakistan was trying to overthrow Afghan govenrment way before America ever was mentioned in the region.

What image should I better? Shouldnt we improve our image as Pashtuns, we go around killing eachother over petty issues and we still get misled and misused by people like Faye and all the other people with bad intent for us, such as the Paki-lovers and the wifes and husbands of Paki Punjabis.

If America leaves at this stage, then Taliban would take over by force, they will destory everything again and Pakistan would place their Haqqanis into power, is that what you want?

Like I said, the only way to stop the Taliban Insurgency, is to hit at Pakistan. They are hiding there and everybody knows this, Pakistan needs to be hit really really hard and taught a lesson, but as usual the left wingers and the Faye's out there in the West will always defend a Corrupted failed state terrorist supporting country like Pakistan, knowing very well, the destruction Pakistan has done to the Region.

[MDresden]

On the contrary...we probably will like a surgical steel blade remove Taliban after we leave Afghanistan. It's just a guess but I believe since our combat forces will be leaving soon...that will leave more cover and covert abilities to our troops.

The Taliban will never be allowed in numbers anywhere in Pakistan or Afghanistan after we pull out I believe, because we will not have any sort of footprint there.

[faye]

because you were sent by a moron, george bush, initially. because someone blew up the twin towers and blamed it on osama bin laden. because the taliban offered to hand him over if bush could provide proof the obl did the deed and mr bush had no proof and your government still has not provided the proof. because you are setting up bases so you can be close to iran and pakistan (just in case). because that is what israel wants you to do as good puppets for the state of israel.