poisonous ways of snakes and scorpions-50 killed in KPK

[randolph85]

military personnel are legitimate targets. this is one of the few high profile attacks where the ttp has killed more army personnel than civilians. this doesn't excuse their past murderous rampages though, they should keep their fight against the army and not civilians.

[Toramana]

Ah, Idiot Saib watch this... this is the other ANP tactic... shift the blame to others not on the holy soil.

To answer you Toramana, we are not. If they want to stop... so be bit. The Taliban fighters and insurgents can become doctors, lawyers, karzai's foot stools, jiggalos etc. I would not be upset at all with a single one of them.

However, if they do decide to respond in a human fashion and pick up the gun, I wont do as you do and ignore why they do so.

So even if you want to criticize me for "being in America" you still have not addressed that boy in Khost or in Wana who picks up the gun. What is your criticism of him?

You still are evading the fundamental point....How is the indiscrimate killing of those that have got nothing to do with the militancy of US and the counter rabbid militancy and the associated savage ideologies of the insane Islamists justified?

If asymetric warefare is moral and justified why don't you join it? On ethical grounds something that is futile rather self-destructive should never be justified let alone prescribed for others...

I wonder what these 50 poor guys that got a job and may be were the only earning hands for their families had got to do with one girl killed by US (I don't justify that but it is evident it could be called collateral but not indiscriminate)?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

unfortunately, he is resorting to now false words. He never disappoints.

He has not ever protested drone strikes, or Pak army operations. He supports US-NATO.

Is this not strange. He talks of this and that, but almost all KP and FATA Pashtuns are are against US NATO, but he is not.

He never seems to care about the deaths in Afghanistan.

Just spam his posts with that article from the Cambridge professor. That is your mission. Until he answers it and as long as he spams the forum in a manner similar to those he criticized before for doing the same thing (the late unknownprince) he ought to answer the argument.

[ghundal]

Ah, Idiot Saib watch this... this is the other ANP tactic... shift the blame to others not on the holy soil.

To answer you Toramana, we are not. If they want to stop... so be bit. The Taliban fighters and insurgents can become doctors, lawyers, karzai's foot stools, jiggalos etc. I would not be upset at all with a single one of them.

However, if they do decide to respond in a human fashion and pick up the gun, I wont do as you do and ignore why they do so.

So even if you want to criticize me for "being in America" you still have not addressed that boy in Khost or in Wana who picks up the gun. What is your criticism of him?

You have managed to determine everything he says.

I highly doubt I will ever come across people like this face to face. Its very absurd.

I am utterly suprised at their mindset. I even wonder if ANP actually feeds them this crap. Anyone doing so, has no respect.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You still are evading the fundamental point....How is the indiscrimate killing of those that have got nothing to do with the militancy of US and the counter rabbid militancy and the associated savage ideologies justified?

If asymetric warefare is moral and justified why don't you join it? On ethical grounds something that is futile rather self-destructive should never be justified let alone prescribe it for others...

I wonder what these 50 poor guys that got a job and may be the only earning hands for their families have got to do with one girl killed by US (I don't justify that but it is evident it could be called collateral but not indiscriminate)?

No, it is you that is evading the fundemental point the professor raises... its not about the morality or immorality of assymetric warfare.

Did you know that when you run... your hear beats harder and your heart rate goes faster?

Do you ask the heart why it beats faster?

Do you know that when your heart is dying from a blocked vessel... it attempts everything it can to save the damaged tissue... even to its detriment.

Did you know that an army of inflammatory cells invades certain regions of the body after acute insults and that this inflammation can actually be harmful... yet the body has evolved to do such things.

In this same way, the professor outlines what you miss out on, because you could care less about the people. You care about onething... and one thing alone... your agenda being supreme and you winning. He outlines that asymmetric warfare is an innate response to an asymmetrically powerful force invading a region. he provides you countless examples from history away from even the Muslim regions to buttress this.

So no Toramana, it is you that has to justify why an imperial force whehter it be the British, or the Americans has the right to force themselves onto a people.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You still are evading the fundamental point....How is the indiscrimate killing of those that have got nothing to do with the militancy of US and the counter rabbid militancy and the associated savage ideologies of the insane Islamists justified?

If asymetric warefare is moral and justified why don't you join it? On ethical grounds something that is futile rather self-destructive should never be justified let alone prescribed for others...

I wonder what these 50 poor guys that got a job and may be were the only earning hands for their families had got to do with one girl killed by US (I don't justify that but it is evident it could be called collateral but not indiscriminate)?

Regarding the prescription issue... you are dancing a dance with me and not doing so elegantly at all. Everyone sees it. You are basically saying the same thing I answered above: There is no prescription. I advise those boys to get an education and to basically do whateever it is they want. IF they want to be street graffitt artists, the next great Afghan rapper, Karzai's brother's butler... etc. If they want to attend harvard, princeton... so be it.

However, if they refuse and say they want to fight... I will not spit on them and run along ANP party lines solely because I have an agenda.

If a group of Pashtuns tomorrow invaded a small town in America and the Americans started shooting at them... I would tell teh pashtuns the same thing: What did you expect?

So now Toramana, produce your rebuttal and quit squirming. The repetition is not doing you justice.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I find it fascinating that Toramana cannot see what even Neoconservative Victor Hanson has understood:

As Victor Davis Hanson comments, "we in the West call the few casualties we suffer from terrorism and surprise 'cowardly', the frightful losses we inflict through open and direct assault 'fair'."

[Toramana]

In Pashto, they say "thindar pa Talash olaido, khra yai da Ramorai waiwra..."...An innocent girl was killed in Afghanistan, which is very bad---and the savage kill 50 people (Pashtuns) in Shabqadar(if it were not for the Arab honour---)---so you kill more of your people to take your revenge...

[BarakzaiAbdali]

In Pashto, they say "thindar pa Talash olaido, khra yai da Ramorai waiwra..."...An innocent girl was killed in Afghanistan, which is very bad---and the savage kill 50 people (Pashtuns) in Shabqadar(if it were not for the Arab honour---)---so you kill more of your people to take your revenge...

Once again, I killed no one. A boy in Afghanistan or Northern Pakistan armed with little more than fertilizer and a detonator (not laser guided or satellite guided or heating seeking missiles) decided that he was mad enough to want to eject a foreigner from his land. Perhaps he experienced something similar to what Mr. Ghundal posted. Perhaps not...
He however was there first... Tim, Bob, Steve etc was in Memphis Tennessee.

So if you feel that his tactics are so problematic, you ought to even the playing field to give him higher resolution weaponry or do what makes the most sense... ask politely, the US and NATO to leave.

So now you are telling me: But but but you are in the US.... you are comfortable... how DARE you kill people in a market place.

And I am telling you: Sure, thats a bad act... but it wasnt me

You are saying: But you agree with it... you are a proponent of it!

I am saying: Noooo, I am saying that it happens for a reason... as Dr. Barkani shows... its not specific to Muslim countries. In Batista's Cuba suicide attacks occurred as well. It appears to be a response to a heavier handed power. We see this phenomena occuring in Chechnya as well.

The more lopsided a force is in facing a superpower, the more likely it will resort to such tactics.

So now, answer the article and quit wasting my time with recycled arguments.

Do you blame the rape victim or the rapist? It appears to me that you prefer to blame the raped

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Come on Toramana, lets do this a paragraph at at time. Deal with this section first and rebut it... why are the british here the innocent ones and the Chinese barbaric?:

Asymmetric warfare is the result of conflict between the powerful and the powerless, reinforcing a cycle of violence.

In an earlier moment of resistance against the Western world order, the Hong Kong Chinese opened a front in the bakeries. They nearly wiped out the entire European community on the island by kneading arsenic into their bread. But the bakers were too generous with the arsenic, which caused the Europeans to vomit before the poison could take effect.

The British were trying to open up Chinese markets for the sale of Indian opium. It took them two wars to do so in the mid-nineteenth century and the "terrorist bakers" provided part of the excuse to get the second war started. The prime minister, Lord Palmerston, railed against those who would kill British subjects by "murder, assassination, and poison".

The irony that he was practising narco-colonialism on a grand scale by force of arms, addicting Chinese in order to balance payments, perhaps never occurred to him.
When those who are weak in conventional military terms seek to fight the strong, they often do so through unconventional tactics and ruses. To do otherwise is to be stupid and risk being mown down by superior firepower. Yet tactics like poisoning families as they break bread expose the weak to charges of barbarity.

[Toramana]

Regarding the prescription issue... you are dancing a dance with me and not doing so elegantly at all. Everyone sees it. You are basically saying the same thing I answered above: There is no prescription. I advise those boys to get an education and to basically do whateever it is they want. IF they want to be street graffitt artists, the next great Afghan rapper, Karzai's brother's butler... etc. If they want to attend harvard, princeton... so be it.

However, if they refuse and say they want to fight... I will not spit on them and run along ANP party lines solely because I have an agenda.

If a group of Pashtuns tomorrow invaded a small town in America and the Americans started shooting at them... I would tell teh pashtuns the same thing: What did you expect?

So now Toramana, produce your rebuttal and quit squirming. The repetition is not doing you justice.

This verbal jugglary again to evade the main question i.e., if you cannot shoot at the Americans, how come you blow any X, y, ..., Z in Khyber Bazar ( just to assuage your insane emotions of revenge). Rationally and ethically, if the asymetric warfare cannot succeed, why justify it (to harm your own people)?

Furthermore, it is not that simplistic...The Arab should not have targetted a super-power from Afghan soil for an Arab cause....If they had not done what they have done and not sheltered that person, UN would have not mandated US/NATO forces...Now why don't they stop the violence to leave US/NATO without any excuse to be in Afghanistan...

[ghundal]

you don't care about the girl, and nor do you care about 50 people. You only care about yourself.

If you cared about Pashtuns, you would be opposed to drone attacks (which you are not), and you would be opposed to the US NATO war of aggression against the Afghan people. In its last stages, they are creating mayhem as punishment for being defeated.

Just few days ago, you were championing the US side quite fervently in regards to Kandahar. Go to Kandahar and do that, and I am sure you will be running.

You are not snake or scorpion. You have praised me with such reference. They are noble creatures.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You have managed to determine everything he says.

I highly doubt I will ever come across people like this face to face. Its very absurd.

I am utterly suprised at their mindset. I even wonder if ANP actually feeds them this crap. Anyone doing so, has no respect.

Just keep posting parts of the article to force him to rebut it paragraph by paragraph.

The issue here is very simple... its to force Toramana to comment on who has the moral imperitive.

His attempt and why he became so hot and bothered is that you posted that video of the young girl... he saw the Afghans here becoming upset and he quickly tried this as a ruse to try and take back the moral imperitve.

Why? Because he knows that the Afghans will begin to question the NATO presence.

This then undermines his agenda, which has nothing to do with feeding people or taking care of people etc... rather it is to utilize one populace (the Americans) against another populace (the Panjab) to further his ends.

IF, for a second, he admits that the boy in Quetta, Kandahar, Khost, kalat e ghilzai decided to pick up a gun because he sees an outsider force in his land... he loses the moral imperitive.

He then puts himself in the absurd situation that the Professor describes that the British politicians were in... they referred to the Chinese as barbarians... yet the British were the outsiders occupying Chinese land and destroying the Chinese nation... in response to their assymetric power the Chinese used such tactics.

So now... why should the Chinese be seen as barbaric and the refined occupant british not be questioned regarding what he heck he is doing occupying China?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

This verbal jugglary again to evade the main question i.e., if you cannot shoot at the Americans, how come you blow any X, y, ..., Z in Khyber Bazar ( just to assuage your insane emotions of revenge). Rationally and ethically, if the asymetric warfare cannot succeed, why justify it (to harm your own people)?

Furthermore, it is not that simplistic...The Arab should not have targetted a super-power from Afghan soil for an Arab cause....If they had not done what they have done and not sheltered that person, UN would have not mandated US/NATO forces...Now why don't they stop the violence to leave US/NATO without any excuse to be in Afghanistan...

Ah now you are talking some sense. Lets go further.

1) If a force is randomly hitting bazaars... we must discuss with said force what caused them to hit the bazaar. Was Mr. Sherpao, Mr. so and so, Mr. Wardak's chief supporter in the bazaar that day? Was Gul Agha there? Who knows.

2) If the bazaar was being hit, would it have been hit had NATO/US not created the ripe environment for asymmetric warfare to initiate. Per Hoh's Afghan study group findings, such attacks cease when the forces leave hte area.

3) The now deceased Arab per this:

http://english.aljazeera.net/program...338715787.html

was pursued by force from his home country --> pursued by force in Sudan --> took refuge as a last resort in Afghanistan.

So now, let us ask the imperial power why they stationed themselves in his homeland?

If your response is, well he should have attacked them there... it appears per the record he did so.

The end result Toramana?
If the Americans listened to Dr. Paul and had not foolishly utilized the Arab Kingdoms as their pawns... had they worked on energy self sufficiency and had they not played the Arab Israeli game... said deceased Arab might not have found his way to the region in the first place.

So now... please discuss the moral imperitive and quit skirting the issue. If the initial intervention post gulfwar 1 resulted in this mess... who initiated gulf war 1?

[ghundal]

the sad thing is I could have posted a million articles about Afghans who have been murdered. The fact remains that all Afghans are innocent. All the blood is sacred.

but Toramana will want people to think otherwise. How dare they continue to insult the man from Kunar who stands up to defend his homeland.

The old Taliban is mostly gone. I posted a documentary from Canada. The youth of Afghanistan (mostly the rural areas) have grown up with war.

This is the Afghans who are standing. 20-40 years olds. This is the age group. People who have known only war. This failed war of aggression has been imposed on them, so they have responded as any free man would.