WHy is Pakistan supporting war against Afghans?

[ghundal]

Really how do you know this? Do you have internal documents to back this up?

well, its common sense as well as fact. US forces (ALL US forces are leaving Iraq at the end of this year, after their "training" mission)

If Afghanistan had welcomed all these foreigners, there would be no talk and actual withdrawal. Get with it now


Can't guarantee safety of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan: Harper

[BLS_1919v2.0]

training mission is just a means of going out without a complete whimper. At least be realistic here. Poland is trying to do the same thing.

I am not being arrogant. I asked specific questions to you and Comrad in which you responded with a side chit-chat with him (knowing very well who I am- something grandmothers do) and mere assumptions.

With the situation in Afghanistan, there are clear facts in terms of support for Afghan resistance, and control of areas that point towards reality. These Bonn agreements, well when push comes to shove means nothing. I mean, there were so many of these SHAM agreements during the Soviet war against Afghans. What did that do? Enduring strategic partner this, partner that.

the fighting Afghan is no man's pawn, except their own.

You can call me a cheerleader, but you are no different with your talk about what you think nato will do.

Like I told you before. We all base our arguments on a set of arguments, but due to our limitations we have assumptions within our arguments (yours do as well). Now since I am not clairvoyant (I am willing to bet you are not as well), then none of us know exactly what will happen. We can only speculate with the information present. Just simply saying x will withdraw means very little when there are other actors in the region who will have a say as well. Can you guarantee what will happen in regards to them as well? If so based on what?

What Bonn agreements? Can you be more specific? Those soviet agreements become worthless since it collapsed. Obviously they had little to no worth then. You can't have such partnerships when the opposing party does not exist anymore.

There is also something called Fog of war (go ahead google it). So I don't know where these prophetic visions come from. Again it is possible that you are right and I am wrong and vice versa.

How do you know who or what an Afghan is? Shouldn't the Afghan nation decide who or what they want to be?

I don't think you comprehend the concept of cheerleading. See a cheer leader normally is on the sidelines rooting for one side and acts as if they have a stake in that victory or said loss. Morale booster if that and eye candy. By me having an opinion on NATO makes me a cheer-leader in what way?

[BLS_1919v2.0]

well, its common sense as well as fact. US forces (ALL US forces are leaving Iraq at the end of this year, after their "training" mission)

If Afghanistan had welcomed all these foreigners, there would be no talk and actual withdrawal. Get with it now


Can't guarantee safety of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan: Harper

How is it common sense? What are you basing this on? Give me previous history or proof to back it up.

See Canada is not withdrawing though. Full withdrawal means every one of them are out of the country. The fact that they are staying shows they have or want a stake. That isn't withdrawal rather a play on words.

Harper has backed on a lot of things, the man has been in contempt of parliament.

[ghundal]

How sure are you that these two are right? They have their own thesis/arguments which have assumptions within them. Now if you want to believe what you say is entirely the truth, then that is your hubris.

Pakistan gets money for the supplies because this is documented. We know this.

Lol@Imran. Why don't you go and check his party's constitution and then in the event he gets into power, see how that goes. Kiyani is also against the drones, but then again his military gets billions. That doesn't stop him, does it. Imran Khan should then kindly take a stand against FCR as well. If he is willing to do that and hold his own country's military apparatus responsible for their crimes, then he might have promise. How do you its not a gimmick or rhetoric? What proof do you have?

We all speculate. We don't have the future sitting smack in front of us. Are you clairvoyant by any chance?

Lol at Candada not withdrawing. You seem to be disappointed. They are phasing out along with Britain who will completely withdraw by 2014.

So, you should put in a request to him. Imran Khan is taking a stance against the Pakistani establishment (civilian and military). Google the latest news on Imran Khan. ANP-PMAP as usual sits on the sidelines.

Their jealousy of him will continue to grow as support for him increases.

I see something for what it is, a man raising an issue with the Pakistani government. You are the one who attaches conspiracy theory to everything

Bottom line: a man who is against drone attacks on his people is more credible than a man who is in favor of drone attacks against his people. No hoopla hysteria conspiracy jargon can deny this It is what is is, not what you think it is.

It matters what he wants now, and what he wants is a stop to drone attacks against his people. I see nothing to object. Anyone who does is either mad or supportive of attacks against their own people

Regardless of what is long term objectives are in terms of politics, the man seeks to put an end to drone attacks against his people- a noble and just cause.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Lol at Candada not withdrawing. You seem to be disappointed. They are phasing out along with Britain who will completely withdraw by 2014.

So, you should put in a request to him. Imran Khan is taking a stance against the Pakistani establishment (civilian and military). Google the latest news on Imran Khan. ANP-PMAP as usual sits on the sidelines.

Their jealousy of him will continue to grow as support for him increases.

I see something for what it is, a man raising an issue with the Pakistani government. You are the one who attaches conspiracy theory to everything

Bottom line: a man who is against drone attacks on his people is more credible than a man who is in favor of drone attacks against his people. No hoopla hysteria conspiracy jargon can deny this It is what is is, not what you think it is.

It matters what he wants now, and what he wants is a stop to drone attacks against his people. I see nothing to object. Anyone who does is either mad or supportive of attacks against their own people

Regardless of what is long term objectives are in terms of politics, the man seeks to put an end to drone attacks against his people- a noble and just cause.

You are so full of it, it is sad. You are one tracked and think what you believe is true because you managed to take a few articles or comments at face value. That is your fault, not mine.

I am being accurate about what is going on in Canada, since I am always updating myself on the news. The time dates have changed. And to me a withdrawal is when every single troop and foreign entity with military power is out of the state. Before that is just pleasing oneself over nothing. Why would I be disappointed?

Lol you don't think people have called him out on this? He has been many times over. And btw how is he against the military establishment when he had figures like Hamid Gul beside him and parties like JI who in the time of Musharraf came into power. That so-called anti drone rally was not entirely PTI, majority were JI and Sherpao. Both were in bed with Musharraf and the establishment. Hamid Gul is well known about his stands. He is a right wing Pakistani hawk. He, though, uses Islam to somewhat justify his patriotism.

ANP workers have been killed. More than a hundred by the same establishment, particularly in Karachi and Swat. Why don't you place a wreath or cry for them as well, lol?

As I told you before, I am not going to put my support on a man who says some rhetoric. I will see it when he really has the mandate and puts his money where his mouth is. Otherwise he is no different than the countless other demagogues. One issue and that too, which he is half-assed behind is not enough for me to endorse.

[ghundal]

You are so full of it, it is sad. You are one tracked and think what you believe is true because you managed to take a few articles or comments at face value. That is your fault, not mine.

I am being accurate about what is going on in Canada, since I am always updating myself on the news. The time dates have changed. And to me a withdrawal is when every single troop and foreign entity with military power is out of the state. Before that is just pleasing oneself over nothing. Why would I be disappointed?

Lol you don't think people have called him out on this? He has been many times over. And btw how is he against the military establishment when he had figures like Hamid Gul beside him and parties like JI who in the time of Musharraf came into power. That so-called anti drone rally was not entirely PTI, majority were JI and Sherpao. Both were in bed with Musharraf and the establishment. Hamid Gul is well known about his stands. He is a right wing Pakistani hawk. He, though, uses Islam to somewhat justify his patriotism.

ANP workers have been killed. More than a hundred by the same establishment, particularly in Karachi and Swat. Why don't you place a wreath or cry for them as well, lol?

As I told you before, I am not going to put my support on a man who says some rhetoric. I will see it when he really has the mandate and puts his money where his mouth is. Otherwise he is no different than the countless other demagogues. One issue and that too, which he is half-assed behind is not enough for me to endorse.

In regards to your opinion on Imran Khan, well, using your logic, you should also spit on that party you represent in your avatar because they have done nothing at all. Have they led a demonstration against drone attacks, or are they supporting it? Do KP and FATA pashtuns support drone attacks?


My friend, again, you think I am engaged in wishful thinking when you yourself are.

You speak in such a factual manner about US-nato, but when it comes to their own claims that they are withdrawing, you seem to not want to believe them on this? Why the change in regards to this? You think they will continue to bleed themselves to death in terms of money and blood? Afghans have forced them into this postion.

Maybe they like losing, and having their soldiers return home in coffins? As I said, the Soviets spoke of withdrawal, and withdrew.

You can't have it both ways. You can't take their actions and intentions for somethings, and not for others. Just because maybe you can't accept that they are actually withdrawing, there is no need to deny it. Keep it simple. The talk of withdrawal itself is embarrassing as it is.

Had it not been for the persistence and resilience of the Afghan, the talk of withdrawal would not have even been whispered. The same applies to the Soviet war against the Afghans.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

In regards to your opinion on Imran Khan, well, using your logic, you should also spit on that party you represent in your avatar because they have done nothing at all. Have they led a demonstration against drone attacks, or are they supporting it? Do KP and FATA pashtuns support drone attacks?


My friend, again, you think I am engaged in wishful thinking when you yourself are.

You speak in such a factual manner about US-nato, but when it comes to their own claims that they are withdrawing, you seem to not want to believe them on this? Why the change in regards to this?

Maybe they like losing, and having their soldiers return home in coffins? As I said, the Soviets spoke of withdrawal, and withdrew.

You can't have it both ways. Just because maybe you can't accept that they are actually withdrawing, there is no need to deny it. Keep it simple. The talk of withdrawal itself is embarrassing as it is.

Lol how many times can you fail in a single thread? I think you reached the limit. The party in my avatar is not ANP or PKMAP. It was a youth organization we started about two years ago. I made a photo-shop for it. Do you know anything about anything?

I can't speak for millions of people. However I discussed the issue of drones before in another thread. Go search for it, my answer is there. I don't repeating myself.

I didn't say they (Nato) are not going to withdraw, eventually they will and will have to leave. What I said was regarding Canada. As I am aware of the political scenario here (due to the closer access of media and internal politics), I am skeptical about their so-called 2014 withdrawal. Especially when they are not fully dis-engaging. I didn't at all. You are splitting hairs, because you have nothing substantial to debate.

Do you know for a fact that Soviets entire apparatus agreed on a set date of withdrawal>? Can you say for certain that they had agreed on one date and one date only and then withdrew? Can you say for certain that they didn't change their dates and numbers around during their period of downturn?

How am I having it both ways? More like it is you who are. You speak of US as your nation and yet feel the need to dictate and judge my nation (Pashtuns). That is having it both ways. Why don't you stick to one.

[ghundal]

Lol how many times can you fail in a single thread? I think you reached the limit. The party in my avatar is not ANP or PKMAP. It was a youth organization we started about two years ago. I made a photo-shop for it. Do you know anything about anything?

I can't speak for millions of people. However I discussed the issue of drones before in another thread. Go search for it, my answer is there. I don't repeating myself.

I didn't say they (Nato) are not going to withdraw, eventually they will and will have to leave. What I said was regarding Canada. As I am aware of the political scenario here (due to the closer access of media and internal politics), I am skeptical about their so-called 2014 withdrawal. Especially when they are not fully dis-engaging. I didn't at all. You are splitting hairs, because you have nothing substantial to debate.

Do you know for a fact that Soviets entire apparatus agreed on a set date of withdrawal>? Can you say for certain that they had agreed on one date and one date only and then withdrew? Can you say for certain that they didn't change their dates and numbers around during their period of downturn?

How am I having it both ways? More like it is you who are. You speak of US as your nation and yet feel the need to dictate and judge my nation (Pashtuns). That is having it both ways. Why don't you stick to one.

Accusing me of failing in a thread is another of your weak points. Just stick to what I am asking. You seem to want to believe certain things about US-nato, but not others. Canada is phasing out whether you like it or not. They are actually already packing up in Kandahar, and moving most things out this summer. No gimmiks. No hidden agenda. Blood is too much for them. Britain is leaving completely (all forces) by 2014. No hidden agenda. US wants to maintain an "enduring strategic relationship" with Afghanistan. This is again talk because even Karzai is against this. He knows that the Afghans have already decided, reason he spoke of the Quran burning, and brought it to the attention of the country was significant.

You want to believe the ferangi on some things, but not on others. ANd lets not miss the bigger picture, the Afghans are forcing them out. No wishful thinking. They are not pretending when they speak of withdrawal. The talk alone is humiliating enough. Afghans have sealed their fate. There were many naysayers during the Soviet war too.


Did I say it was ANP or PMAP? Well like Imran Khan stands for something, you seem to too. Everyone stands for something. Point being made, why question Imran Khan as an actor? So are you implying that it is wrong to stand against drone attacks? No, what you said to me was your usual: there are many things going on, blah blah. Nothing concrete at all. The same manner in which you answered me about the Taliban. The same manner in which you speak about anything: there are many many many things happening. This is no answer on your part.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Did I say it was ANP or PMAP?

You didn't have to. These are the two major parties. They have generally not been anti-drones. It basically speaks for itself. Which party did you think it was? Since you ingeniously pretended to know their policy?

[ghundal]

You bring too many irrelevant things up. If Pakistan is against drone attacks, so what? Is that not good? So what if Imran Khan's stance on dron attacks coincides with Hamid Guls SO WHAT? LOL

Do you support drone attacks? have any of your relatives or friends been killed by drone attacks?

[BLS_1919v2.0]

You bring too many irrelevant things up. If Pakistan is against drone attacks, so what? Is that not good? So what if Imran Khan's stance on dron attacks coincides with Hamid Guls SO WHAT? LOL

Do you support drone attacks? have any of your relatives or friends been killed by drone attacks?

How is that irrelevant? When you ally yourself with such political/military figures it speaks a lot about your future and current inclinations. So it does matter.

I didn't support drone attacks, I have mentioned my stance there. I didn't support Pakistans military operation but none of my relatives at the time were being affected. I don't need that as a motivation to care for my people.

BTW don't run away what party did you think my avatar was from. At least be humble to admit your faults.

[ghundal]

You didn't have to. These are the two major parties. They have generally not been anti-drones. It basically speaks for itself. Which party did you think it was? Since you ingeniously pretended to know their policy?

well, then they are pathetic, and lack any credibility, and thank Allah(swt), they will never see the light of day

I know they are lackeys.

I know they have been supportive of Pakistan's operations in Waziristan, and drone attacks against Pashtuns, but I did not know they were so open about it. Is it no wonder that no one takes them seriously

[BLS_1919v2.0]

well, then they are pathetic, and lack any credibility, and thank Allah(swt), they will never see the light of day

I know they are lackeys.

I know they have been supportive of Pakistan's operations in Waziristan, and drone attacks against Pashtuns, but I did not know they were so open about it. Is it no wonder that no one takes them seriously

They are skeptical about the operations. Mahmoud Khan Achakzai has stated his opinion in detail, go read it or check his interviews. And people do take them seriously. In Pashtunkhwa the major parties are ANP, PPPP, JI and PKMAP.

[ghundal]

How is that irrelevant? When you ally yourself with such political/military figures it speaks a lot about your future and current inclinations. So it does matter.

I didn't support drone attacks, I have mentioned my stance there. I didn't support Pakistans military operation but none of my relatives at the time were being affected. I don't need that as a motivation to care for my people.

BTW don't run away what party did you think my avatar was from. At least be humble to admit your faults.

Well, I thought it was another pathetic nationalist party. I mean, they are so insignificant, whats there to know about them other then that they support bloodshed of their own people by drones and Pakistan Army operations. Really, again, no wonder they will never see the light of day.

No, it is important because maybe if US-nato were dropping bombs on your home, you would think differently. Some people need it to be made personal for them to get the sand out of their eyes.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Well, I thought it was another pathetic nationalist party. I mean, they are so insignificant, whats there to know about them other then that they support bloodshed of their own people by drones and Pakistan Army operations. Really, again, no wonder they will never see the light of day.

No, it is important because maybe if US-nato were dropping bombs on your home, you would think differently. Some people need it to be made personal for them to get the sand out of their eyes.

Well then you were wrong (which is what 99% of the time). It speaks miles of your analytical capabilities.

It isn't, and it doesn't concern you. I just told you where I stand in regards to both. I didn't need family members to die for me to realize the importance of standing by my own. BTW did you lose any of your brethren? I mean it must hurt you that your countrymen and tax payers are gone with the wind. Did you lose someone personal who was fighting for Uncle Sam that has made you adamantly anti-war? Like I said stick to your nation, and I will worry about my Pashtuns. I care about their future as well. I could right, or wrong Allah u aalim.