WHy is Pakistan supporting war against Afghans?

[BLS_1919v2.0]

so all your points are based on assumptions?

Captain Obvious, every individuals opinions are based on primary assumptions...otherwise how on earth would you formulate a coherent opinion/viewpoint?

[faye]

ghundal, i admire your optimism and i hope good comes out of all the chaos but there are so many conflicting stories about the pakistani government, the isi, the taliban the afghan government and the northern alliance that i doubt that anyone can predict what will happen. it reminds me of the spy vs spy vs spy situation. i have seen a video showing that america deliberately did not capture bin laden when they invaded afghanistan and allowed him and many taliban and al qaeda to escape to pakistan. an article saying that pakistan flew them out with americas go ahead. i saw a video where an ex us army guy turned reporter, claims that the americans took truck loads of taliban to fight in iraq.
of course i don't know how true any of these are but there are too many theories. i think we will just have to wait and see.

[ghundal]

You make an assumption about the Taliban. Every other supposed rationalistic thought rests on that assumption. Thiss fantastic. You think US-nato will and wont do this, but you do not afford the same perception to the Afghan Resistance. As if they will even agree to a safe withdrawal? Same thoughts existed during the war against the Soviets, and they were, and remained only thoughts. Remember, the Soviets also had no intention of withdrawing too. What did that do for them?

Blood and treasure are not in endless supply. Mothers seeing their children come back home in body bags is not acceptable for people. Tax-payer money (trillions) drained into a failed war is most importantly not acceptable. So you have this loss of blood and treasure which is due to the Afghan insurgency/resistance- whatever they want to call it. Economics dictates the failure here, and hence, the withdrawal. Sugar coat it as transition. As costs go up, reality sets in.





About you and Comrade chatting. Well, I can't be direct here. in a month I could reply, but then I will forget about this anyways

[ghundal]

Captain Obvious, every individuals opinions are based on primary assumptions...otherwise how on earth would you formulate a coherent opinion/viewpoint?

well, I have actually given you the reality in regards to the Taliban and US-nato. You have given assumptions.

But, you have not told me that people do not like US-nato. Now that you left out. And well that is a fact, supported by several polls.

[ghundal]

ghundal, i admire your optimism and i hope good comes out of all the chaos but there are so many conflicting stories about the pakistani government, the isi, the taliban the afghan government and the northern alliance that i doubt that anyone can predict what will happen. it reminds me of the spy vs spy vs spy situation. i have seen a video showing that america deliberately did not capture bin laden when they invaded afghanistan and allowed him and many taliban and al qaeda to escape to pakistan. an article saying that pakistan flew them out with americas go ahead. i saw a video where an ex us army guy turned reporter, claims that the americans took truck loads of taliban to fight in iraq.
of course i don't know how true any of these are but there are too many theories. i think we will just have to wait and see.

faye, I think you are reading too many hippie magazines LOL. The US-nato has brought disorder to Afghanistan. This is true. The Taliban are bringing order to Afghanistan. This is true, and is supported by Afghan support for Afghan resistance, and resentment to US-nato.

My points don't rest on assumptions. There is loads of evidence, including polls. Just read yesterdays New York Times about Afghan resentment to US-nato in Paktika.

[faye]

well, up you too, ghundal maybe your 'proof' is on limted information. you don't know for sure that any info outside you sphere of knowledge, is not true, or do you have 'proof' that is isn't? you actually sound naive to me. what hippy magazines? you mean from the 60s? i don't think so, bro

[BLS_1919v2.0]

well, I have actually given you the reality in regards to the Taliban and US-nato. You have given assumptions.

But, you have not told me that people do not like US-nato. Now that you left out. And well that is a fact.

Huh? Come again? So you are trying to tell me, that you know all about the situation in Afghanistan? You just jumped head on in and came up with the "truth"? Amazing.

I just did offer them. I never made a definitive presumption about the future of Taliban (in the event they take over). Did I not tell you, I am not sure? I think certain scenarios can happen and I base it on the information I have. I am willing to accord Talibs more leeway on their future as I am not part of their apparatus, so I don't have a lot of info on them (other than the limited they post or what locals say). That is why I am unsure. US and NATO is a little different. You have access to more documents, think tanks, journalists, etc. And you have the previous history of other super powers. Those things tend to help when formulating an opinion.

You seem to have a very short memory span. Thousands have died before for America and before that for other powers. Mothers have seen their babies die for wars many times over. That never ended wars. If you can name one, please do? Even Vietnam didn't end by hippies protesting the streets. So let me try to understand your line of logic....soldiers die --> costs of soldiers and war --> economic breakdown --> failure --> withdrawal. Right?! This war has been going on for ten years plus, and was still considered the good war in America until very recently. The real economic crunch has not come from Afghanistan or Iraq, although they are very costly....the real crunch came from the banking and real estate collapse. That is when things really were rearing its ugly head. This is where the real internal problems are within America. Costs are already going up and so is unemployment. They aren't calling this a global recession for no reason. It is one and some are calling it a global depression. In times of joblessness, where do you think kids will turn to in order to get jobs? Military is an option.

Khaana I gave you my opinion on the issue, this is what I thought considering the information I have.

[ghundal]

Making an argument based on assumptions and making one based on facts are two very different things. I have done the latter whereas you by your own admission, have done the former. I am not boasting of any supernatural knowledge. I am merely witnessing my nations defeat in Afghanistan, as money and blood continue to be lost without any accomplishment of objective. Loss and failure have been admitted by several military experts, NOT me, and certainly, and understandingly, NOT you.

My main point is the Afghan resistance is a natural response to any foreigner, and has forced US-nato to start withdrawal. Your nation of Canada is already starting to pack up, disguising their exit with a one year training mission. My nation can sugarcoat it all they want with the words transition, and enduring strategic partnership, but at the end of the day, its all talk.

Withdrawal would have never even been mentioned had it not been for Afghan resistance. We would already be on our way to become a slave state like Japan and Germany. Not to worry, our independence will be safe.



this is unrelated to anything said>>>

As my father says, once you think you will lose, you have already lost.
Withdrawal? A thought?

good night

[BLS_1919v2.0]

My main point is the Afghan resistance is a natural response to any foreigner, and has forced US-nato to withdraw. My nation can sugarcoat it all they want with the words transition, and enduring strategic partnership, but at the end of the day, its all talk.

Withdrawal would have never even been mentioned had it not been for Afghan resistance. We would already be on our way to become a slave state like Japan and Germany. Not to worry, our independence will be safe.

As my father says, once you think you will lose, you have already lost.

Withdrawal? A thought?

good night

There is always resistance in the face of a foreign occupation. However that doesn't always end in withdrawal or terms that are beneficial to the local population. The best example is our own history (Pashtuns that is), where we successfully defeated the British in 2/3 wars but were strategically, politically and socially worse off. We gained a lot less, and ending up starting a dangerous point which eventually led to where we are now.

Maybe, maybe not. We can't make that assumption. Germany and Japan slave states lol. Maybe to an extent, but they are far better off than many others and will secure themselves a very good future even without the US. Don't bring those as examples, when they are capable of the opposite.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Making an argument based on assumptions and making one based on facts are two very different things. I have done the latter whereas you by your own admission, have done the former. I am not boasting of any supernatural knowledge. I am merely witnessing my nations defeat in Afghanistan, as money and blood continue to be lost without any accomplishment of objective. Loss and failure have been admitted by several military experts, NOT me.

My main point is the Afghan resistance is a natural response to any foreigner, and has forced US-nato to start withdrawal. Your nation of Canada is already starting to pack up, disguising their exit with a one year training mission. My nation can sugarcoat it all they want with the words transition, and enduring strategic partnership, but at the end of the day, its all talk.

Withdrawal would have never even been mentioned had it not been for Afghan resistance. We would already be on our way to become a slave state like Japan and Germany. Not to worry, our independence will be safe.

As my father says, once you think you will lose, you have already lost.

Withdrawal? A thought?

good night

Khaana I didn't come up with some mumbo jumbo either. I, too, have employed facts. However as I am human, I am limited and have a starting point when formulating my opinion. In doing so, I, like every other human, have certain initial assumptions. That is how any opinion or viewpoint is formulated. You can't be this delusional. Even those military experts have assumptions and then build their case up on facts. They don't just drop from the sky....as these things are not an exact science. Whenever you are dealing with humans, there is no exact formula that we have. Therefore, there are one too many factors and our own limitations.

My nation is not Canada, it is my second home. My nation is Afghan/Pashtun. Canada is not fully withdrawing, it is wrapping up military operations in the south and will concentrate on training the Afghan police/army and other institutions (whatever that means).

It amazes me that you can speak so arrogantly about such a complex problem.

[ghundal]

I want Comrade Pashtun, BLS, Toramana to answer this before Barakzai or Khushal break your arguments to pieces.

Thanks in advance.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...6d29de9f3e.181

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...73N0MR20110424


Why is Pakistan allowing supply routes to US forces in Afghanistan? Isn't Imran Khan taking good action to 1) halt drone attacks against his people, and 2) block the US-nato supply route.

He is concerned for the welfare of our people.

I expect proper answers without the usual snide remarks that are signs of failed and weak points <<<

So all answers to this involved speculation. Well, Pakistan is allowing supply routes because they get money from the US. Imran Khan is the lone man, both Muslim and Pashtun who is taking a stand against drone attacks against HIS people. No gimmicks here, but maybe jealousy on part of ANP/PMAP.

The Taliban are an Afghan resistance movement. It has evolved into one with the US-nato War against the Afghans. Most of its rank are filled with people that have lost family. and many are also motivated purely as always with resentment to foreigners-something that is a very Afghan attribute.

This is the common sense answer supported by polls and expert military personas such as Mathew Hoh and Dr. Shuer.

Facts, not delusions, and assumptions!

[ghundal]

training mission is just a means of trying to not go out with a complete whimper. Same thing Poland is trying to do.
LOL

[BLS_1919v2.0]

So all answers to this involved speculation. Well, Pakistan is allowing supply routes because they get money from the US. Imran Khan is the lone man, both Muslim and Pashtun who is taking a stand against drone attacks against HIS people. No gimmicks here, but maybe jealousy on part of ANP/PMAP.

The Taliban are an Afghan resistance movement. It has evolved into one with the US-nato War against the Afghans. Most of its rank are filled with people that have lost family. and many are also motivated purely as always with resentment to foreigners-something that is a very Afghan attribute.

This is the common sense answer supported by polls and expert military personas such as Mathew Hoh and Dr. Shuer.

Facts, not delusions, and assumptions!

How sure are you that these two are right? They have their own thesis/arguments which have assumptions within them. Now if you want to believe what you say is entirely the truth, then that is your hubris.

Pakistan gets money for the supplies because this is documented. We know this.

Lol@Imran. Why don't you go and check his party's constitution and then in the event he gets into power, see how that goes. Kiyani is also against the drones, but then again his military gets billions. That doesn't stop him, does it. Imran Khan should then kindly take a stand against FCR as well. If he is willing to do that and hold his own country's military apparatus responsible for their crimes, then he might have promise. How do you its not a gimmick or rhetoric? What proof do you have?

We all speculate. We don't have the future sitting smack in front of us. Are you clairvoyant by any chance?

[BLS_1919v2.0]

training mission is just a means of trying to not go out with a complete whimper. Same thing Poland is trying to do.
LOL

Really how do you know this? Do you have internal documents to back this up?

[ghundal]

Khaana I didn't come up with some mumbo jumbo either. I, too, have employed facts. However as I am human, I am limited and have a starting point when formulating my opinion. In doing so, I, like every other human, have certain initial assumptions. That is how any opinion or viewpoint is formulated. You can't be this delusional. Even those military experts have assumptions and then build their case up on facts. They don't just drop from the sky....as these things are not an exact science. Whenever you are dealing with humans, there is no exact formula that we have. Therefore, there are one too many factors and our own limitations.

My nation is not Canada, it is my second home. My nation is Afghan/Pashtun. Canada is not fully withdrawing, it is wrapping up military operations in the south and will concentrate on training the Afghan police/army and other institutions (whatever that means).

It amazes me that you can speak so arrogantly about such a complex problem.

training mission is just a means of going out without a complete whimper. At least be realistic here. Poland is trying to do the same thing.

I am not being arrogant. I asked specific questions to you and Comrad in which you responded with a side chit-chat with him (knowing very well who I am- something grandmothers do) and mere assumptions.

With the situation in Afghanistan, there are clear facts in terms of support for Afghan resistance, and control of areas that point towards reality. These Bonn agreements, well when push comes to shove means nothing. I mean, there were so many of these SHAM agreements during the Soviet war against Afghans. What did that do? Enduring strategic partner this, partner that.

the fighting Afghan is no man's pawn, except their own.

You can call me a cheerleader, but you are no different with your talk about what you think nato will do.