Toramana and the Secularized Imperialist Collaborators and avoiding posts/threads

[Dildar]

Valid questions here's my response:

What I mean by fragmentation is to fragment their Hegemonic (Imperial) apparatuses, which can often take the form of military. Weaking hegemony

Whatever you mean but their (the imperialists) tactics to rule the weaker. Which is their right if you being an Afghani or Muslimoon can do the same, do it.

Islamic Modernism/Sayyid Jamaluddin Afghani- there are no quick and easy solutions, but there are solutions which can help make things quicker and easier. I feel that the general thesis of Sayyid Jamaluddin Afghani is correct. Namely

I think there are many other theses too which I believe are correct.

1.) Islamic Unity (Shi'a/Sunni and whatever other group, of all ethnicities and nationalities).create strong interdependence instead of competition to free Muslims from imperial control and societal deterioration due to imperialist culture becoming predominant.

A good effort if you can eradicate the sectarian violence prevailing in our muslim societies. Muslims are killing muslims. This is very saddening that the most sectarian violence is there in stronger muslim societies like Pashtuns (e.g Parachinar, Hangu, Kohat etc).
My point of view on this issue is that the main cause of the sectarian violence is extreme poverty and ignorance.

The western imperilism has a very short history of about 2 centuries. They developed a system based on science and technology and other social values e.g democracy which were more stronger than other existing systems of the world. This gives the west an opportunity to rule many other countires of the world. This is the history of mankind the stonger survived and weaker disappeared. Look at the early ages of Islam, when Islam came into power there were almost no infidels left in Makka. Later many countries became their dominions e.g Egypt, India, Afghanistan, Africa, etc. Many thousands embarrassed Islam and consequently their lives improved by adopting the golden principles preached by Islam like justice, Zakat for poor and better governing organized them to further strengthening. At the end their was a greatest Kingdom of Islam ruling the world.

2.) Reexamining Islamic Texts and understanding them to apply to problems relevant to current conditions and circumstances; not focusing on issues which are not immediately pressing

A good point. However we also need to re-examing any text which can help to relevant current conditions and even focussing on issues which are immediatly required to be focussed on.

3.) Developing Technological and Scientific Innovation so we do not have to be reliant on capitalist products and can strengthen ourselves so we're self sufficient.

Although I dont like to refer from history but then sometimes cannot avoid.
In the colonial era when Muslims of india boycotted the products of the west and stopped sending their children to western schools..the once well educated and rich society of muslims lost their position to the weaker society of Hindus. In short, this did not affect the west economy but greatly the muslims. The clever Ahmad Khan rectified the mistake and called muslims not to do so.
Today we go to market to buy products not because that the market need us but because we need products. Then you find products which are often Chinese made. Indian's will be blessed if they can find the high tech products from America and so the americans. You pay you get services. Don't pay don't get. If you can develop your own resources do it. It will add to the market.

Ikhwan Al Muslimeen: is a movement, one of several which urge Muslims all over the world to put their foolish squabbles aside and work together for a common cause, Absolute Truth and Justice from the Source of Truth and Justice, God.

Why the name Ikhwan Al Muslimeen is a must for it then? If you can get such a big cause, this name is not necessary. Searching for the truth, justice and God do not need the symbol of any religion. The prophets showed it. Putting aside all squables among muslims is not possible unless they start to make their lives better. Eradicate poeverty, become honest worker to their nations, eradicate ignorance, improve their governance and make the law and order situations better instead calling each other infidels and mushriq. The west developed not because they were christians or that they learnt from christianity. They developed because of free thinking, honesty, and avoiding obsolete traditions. Tolerance and accommodation for others is a prominent value of the west if you compare them with todays muslims.

Copmetition is a good trend among todays nations and this trend prevailed among the western nations which caused them to develop simultaneously.

You strike an interesting argument, one that I have actually thought about before. Would galvanizing Muslims into becoming collaborative Muslim bloc lead to world destruction?

Well I think the premise is flawed, for two reasons, firstly Some might argue Capitalist societies are already a "bloc" of their own, so why are they entitled to run the show? or some might argue that they're split up into little nationalistic entities as well, so turning into a bloc would engender a massive world war.

I dont think Muslims can unite and galvanize their power to become a threat for todays capitalist nations. Indeed Islam is not any different in economic system to the capitalists nations except few names like we call zakat and western call it tax.

Muslims can develop only if their respective nations concentrate only on good education. For example todays gulf states who started investing on education. There no one want a strong islamic nation except the old dominions of arabs i.e afg and pakistan or yemin etc. Few Shiekhs may be adventurousome and can play in their old dominions but to no success.

But if you examine history During World War I and II there was no real "bloc" until Germany or whatever country started attacking all the others. So you can argue that already existing nation states are not anymore or less conflicting or devastating than a monolithic bloc. But also think of the cold war, they used Vietnam/korea/Afghanistan to fight as proxies but USA and the NATO Bloc never actually directly went to war with the Soviet BLOC.

What an Islamic "Bloc" will do is wane the Capitalist Bloc as a global force; and pressure the Capitalist Bloc into internal isolationism, so it can no longer try to manipulate world affairs in it's favor. This will reduce the chance of wars as militarily the Capitalist Bloc will be significantly reduced. The purpose of the Islamic Bloc is not Islamic Expansionism but Islamic Revivalism. If we have that we can have an exodus of Muslims back to Muslim countries and detoxify them from their addiction to capitalist brainwashings, rebuild and develop adequate infrastructures for healthy environment

Forgetabout any bloc, capitalistic or socilalistic or communistic or islamistic. Their will always be conflicts in this world. But what I think we need to be more concerned about pashtuns instead to make them as the centre for islam. Concentrate on thier education, work to eradicate poverty and ignorance. Then gradually make them a strong nation and if you become more strong then develop your own norms and dictate to others instead to recall your old historical masters. This is a mistake that history repeats itself, indeed new history is made.

What I cant understand about pashtuns that their children are dying due to hunger but some are trying to make them central for islamists.
Persian ruled the day before yesterday, islamists ruled yesterday and today is the west, think about who can rule the next?
Make your own place, let be small but your own. Try to evovle a free society of Pashtuns, try to liberate them from traditions which are bad, recall them those traditions which are good, try to involve them in good deeds instead to teach them about the old Khilafati Usmania like movements.

[ghundal]

To the above poster: the American/ Western era is over. dead, gone, finished. get over it, and accept it.

I am pretty sure that anyone who supports US-NATO/ANA ops against Afghans in the South and East, are definitely not Pashtun.

It can be compared to Jews supporting SS against Jews in Germany. Never happened.

This is how easy it is to detect.

These people also refuse to accept that todays Taliban is made up of youth who have only known/seen war. 20-40years olds whose life has been war.

this refusal to accept that these people are a natural response to foreigners, leaves only questions.

Me being called a snake or scorpion proves how far they will go.

So , I should not point out the crimes of US/NATO/ANA forces?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Whatever you mean but their (the imperialists) tactics to rule the weaker. Which is their right if you being an Afghani or Muslimoon can do the same, do it.

Why is it their right? Who made it so? If it's their right, then it's similarly our right to disregard it and overthrow it.

I think there are many other theses too which I believe are correct.

His thesis is the most holistic and slap in the face of people who have become mentally enslaved to European Models of Ethnocentrism.

A good effort if you can eradicate the sectarian violence prevailing in our muslim societies. Muslims are killing muslims. This is very saddening that the most sectarian violence is there in stronger muslim societies like Pashtuns (e.g Parachinar, Hangu, Kohat etc).
My point of view on this issue is that the main cause of the sectarian violence is extreme poverty and ignorance.

Of course divide and rule was the Imperialist Scheme and still is, the Pashtun vs. Punjabi, Tajik Vs. Pashtun was something they would fuel. It's not a mystery for nearly 70 years, they have funded an establishment which butressed Punjabis specifically; they knew Pashtuns would react and blindly Pashtuns play into it and react rather seeing the external players in the scenario. This happened in middle east too with Kurdish and Arabs and Turks and Kurds. If we are to break free and liberate ourselves we need to overcome such manipulations by realizing it allows us to be exploited.

The western imperilism has a very short history of about 2 centuries. They developed a system based on science and technology and other social values e.g democracy which were more stronger than other existing systems of the world. This gives the west an opportunity to rule many other countires of the world. This is the history of mankind the stonger survived and weaker disappeared.

That's incorrect., Western Imperialism has at least half a Millenia of time span. You're only looking at how it has affected Asia and even then 2 Centuries isnt short considering the lifespan of humans. The Problem with Western Imperialism, which actually in 2011 context is no longer Western Imperialism but Capitalist Hegemony, is that it adversely affects the Habitat of the Planet Earth for not only Humans but all other species. For the future of planetary survival such a society must be brought under control and weakened, if not disassembled. The reason why I say it's no longer "Western Imperialism" is because albiet it's Centered on Western Societies and derived from there, it's globalized now and has no distinct geographic boundary.

Democracy and technological development/science are not identical. Also it's not even a democracy it's an Oligarchy. That's why In American Politics Legislation is not within the hands of Populous, it must be ratified through hierarchal institution. The technological development were largely from exploitation of nature and masses to work under industrial capitalist oligarchy.
However this does not mean this is the only way to gain technology or science.

We must also understand the evolutionary role of technology and science, it was to accord us with Nature; the use of technology and science and science in Modern Context is no longer consistent with Evolution; because it is grossly destructive; we over develop and it adversely affects our habitat (less breathable air, potable water, biodiversity, land distribution etc)

You're right, In Nature Strong Survive and Weak disappeared; so here we should make Muslims strong so they can survive, and Capitalist Imperialism weak so it disappears. What's wrong with that?

The fact Islam is still here despite 200 years of Imperialism, shows that even when we are weak we are strong. So Imagine what potential there is if we were fully strong.

Look at the early ages of Islam, when Islam came into power there were almost no infidels left in Makka. Later many countries became their dominions e.g Egypt, India, Afghanistan, Africa, etc. Many thousands embarrassed Islam and consequently their lives improved by adopting the golden principles preached by Islam like justice, Zakat for poor and better governing organized them to further strengthening. At the end their was a greatest Kingdom of Islam ruling the world.

Sure, Islam was once a fresh and fluid system of processes; that was lost somewhere around the 12th Century when Traditionalist Scholars became afraid of applying itjehad because they feared that it would lead to gross deviation of the fundamental teachings of Islam. This was a misgiving however; because They didnt understand Islam holistically as the Early Muslims did, they didnt realize it's a system of thinking not just a legal system, the legal system gives framework for the system of thinking but is not intended to impair it.


A Perfect example is in current debates I have with other Muslims regarding evolution; their argument against Evolution is that it's not a concrete fact and misunderstanding of the meaning of Theory. At the time when Islam became decline there was tension over the idea of whether or not the Earth was actually a sphere, the Early Muslim Scholars did not have a problem with the concept, and even the concept of Evolution was not new to Muslims and many were able to reconcile it within the framework of Islam. The reason being is that the early Muslims understood certain verses and hadith in certain contexts, they only applied literalism when it applied to Legal Actions, not practical understanding of Nature.

A good point. However we also need to re-examing any text which can help to relevant current conditions and even focussing on issues which are immediatly required to be focussed on.

Although I dont like to refer from history but then sometimes cannot avoid.
In the colonial era when Muslims of india boycotted the products of the west and stopped sending their children to western schools..the once well educated and rich society of muslims lost their position to the weaker society of Hindus. In short, this did not affect the west economy but greatly the muslims. The clever Ahmad Khan rectified the mistake and called muslims not to do so.

This is an interesting example; but it lacks a good depth of the hiistorical climate of those times; Both Ahmad Khan and the Traditionalists made a huge mistake they actually didn't rectify anything. This is exactly why I endorse Sayyid Jamaluddin Afghanis method over Ahmad Khan. The Traditionalists west wrong because they shunned Muslims developing their own Scientific Endeavors because they viewed Science itself as "Western"; and thus instead of Promoting Muslims to break free from dependency, they made Muslims more dependent on the Colonial System and Structure. Science is based on natural methods and principles; no culture or society owns society; So the virtue of a culture is not scientific development itself but how they use and apply science.

Ahmad Khan made an equally detrimental but contrary mistake; he advocated becoming subservient and dependent on the West rather than Muslims acquiring their own abilities and resources by developing their own models and paradigms for how it should be applied. This is exactly why Sayyid Jamaluddin Afghani critizied both Ahmad Khan and the Traditionalists.

Today we go to market to buy products not because that the market need us but because we need products. Then you find products which are often Chinese made. Indian's will be blessed if they can find the high tech products from America and so the americans. You pay you get services. Don't pay don't get. If you can develop your own resources do it. It will add to the market.

Actually I would argue that we buy products and the products are sold because of a vicious cycle. Most of the things we buy in the fundamental sense we dont actually need. It's the psychology of consumerism; and this is implanted upon the environment by the institutions we live in; and these institutions are organized by capitalist oligarchal control.

Think for example why we all use Microsoft? and not other types of OS systems when they are probably better and more efficient? Because Microsoft the Oligarchy.

Now expand this concept in a Global Societal sense; why are we buying these products, not because we need but because we are disposed to them.

Why the name Ikhwan Al Muslimeen is a must for it then? If you can get such a big cause, this name is not necessary. Searching for the truth, justice and God do not need the symbol of any religion. The prophets showed it. Putting aside all squables among muslims is not possible unless they start to make their lives better. Eradicate poeverty, become honest worker to their nations, eradicate ignorance, improve their governance and make the law and order situations better instead calling each other infidels and mushriq. The west developed not because they were christians or that they learnt from christianity. They developed because of free thinking, honesty, and avoiding obsolete traditions. Tolerance and accommodation for others is a prominent value of the west if you compare them with todays muslims.

Are we knitpicking on a name? If it's not a big deal then why make a big deal out it?

Personally I like the term Ikhwan Al Muslimeen, it's a non sectarian Term and also it's fresh and Modern term. It makes sense as it is Universal enough that any Muslim from anywhere can identify with it.

Again we may disagree, Our lives wont be better unless we put away our squabbles, No more of the Tajik vs. Pashtun or Punjabi vs. Pashtun nonsense; we need to look at the bigger picture. Our Survival. No use of being Pashtun if we just end up slaves.

I understand right now this argument is hard to see, Pakistani Establishment which is highly concentrated around Ethnic Punjabis are embroiled in activities which are nefarious. But they are largely funded and their power structure is maintained by America and the UK and even their entire institutional hierarchy was made by the British establishment from British colonial era. All Britain did was leave those structures in place. So we end up seeing a Punjabi face, even though the control switch is actually elsewhere. What's happening now is exactly what happened in Iraq. America was funding and supporting Saddam and even told Saddam to Gas the Kurds; then later when he was no longer useful they destroyed Saddam and now prop up the Kurds so Kurds think America rescued them; they dont know what was happening behind the scenes. This same strategy will be used on Pashtuns ....but will Pashtuns fall for it? I hope not

However these cycle of manipulation is exactly why we need to be taken out of this process entirely; why a Universal Islamic System needs to be in place or else we'll be fighting these squabbles forever.

Copmetition is a good trend among todays nations and this trend prevailed among the western nations which caused them to develop simultaneously

.

Competition is good when You're doing it cooperatively; For example in the Qur'an it says "compete for who does more good deeds"; But it's bad when you're squabbling over resources or land use. This keeps people disabled.

The Competition for Nuclear Armament for example could have left the Entire Planet a wasteland if it was fully met. If we compete against each other as nations we can never develop because we'll always be working to undermine each other.

Remember that's how world war I and II happened; competition.

I dont think Muslims can unite and galvanize their power to become a threat for todays capitalist nations. Indeed Islam is not any different in economic system to the capitalists nations except few names like we call zakat and western call it tax.

Sure if we have people telling us we must copy the west, that we have to be nationalistic ...that we shouldnt work together, pool our resources together ...develop science together, develop technology together. Yes in that case we'll be always doomed and enslaved.

However; if we Cooperate and realize we need to not try to undermine each other but work towards MUTUAL development. Then we can progress indefinitely and become a Powerhouse. We can break Entire Global Markets, and we dont even need to compete in those markets we can just trade with each other and Never have to look outside of ourselves. That will weaken capitalist societies for sure. They depend on us more than we depend on them if you really examine things on a fundamental level.

I wouldnt say Zaka'at is merely equal to tax, Zaka'at is specifically for social program and alleviation. Western Taxes are not for Zaka'at, mainly for allocating to Oligopolistic Control. That's capitalism.

Muslims can develop only if their respective nations concentrate only on good education. For example todays gulf states who started investing on education. There no one want a strong islamic nation except the old dominions of arabs i.e afg and pakistan or yemin etc. Few Shiekhs may be adventurousome and can play in their old dominions but to no success.

I agree; everything I'm saying is education; what is Education but Knowledge and what is Knowledge but realization of Truth; So good education is something that promotes the Truth, enlightens people and brings reality. This is what the goal is. What you're saying isn't accurate Arab Spring is happening because people want something better than being perpetual Slaves of farangiyan. Everyone wants strong Islamic Society; the only problem is , Muslims arent strong so people are disheartened. If we want to invest in Education, we have to make Muslims strong. Or else there wont be success.

Forgetabout any bloc, capitalistic or socilalistic or communistic or islamistic. Their will always be conflicts in this world. But what I think we need to be more concerned about pashtuns instead to make them as the centre for islam. Concentrate on thier education, work to eradicate poverty and ignorance. Then gradually make them a strong nation and if you become more strong then develop your own norms and dictate to others instead to recall your old historical masters. This is a mistake that history repeats itself, indeed new history is made.

Well we can conflicts even if they're inevitable. I'm sure these idiot nationalists will always try to stir problems with other ethnic groups and same with Nationalists with other ethnicities.

Our Pashtun-centeredness is precisely why we're failing in this world, we're too egotistic. Too proud because of our ancestors Accomplishments, yet we're either Manipulated by Punjabis who themselves are Manipulated by british, or we're manipulated by America or Russia.

how are we going to get educated and strong in such a condition? You're right we need education but we need the Right conditions for education; You wont be educated if all you can think about is How much you hate another ethnicity or when your goals for being educated are shallow.

What I cant understand about pashtuns that their children are dying due to hunger but some are trying to make them central for islamists.
Persian ruled the day before yesterday, islamists ruled yesterday and today is the west, think about who can rule the next?

That's because we're hungry because we lack a sound system which works for our benefit. That's why Islamists want to work to something which works for our benefit

We dont want traditionalist Mullahs who are blind to reality and live in a world where only Beards and Miswaks and who listens to music matter. We want a society where our resources are applied Rationally and Cogently so that we dont have a problem with Hunger.

This is why people are focusing of Islamic Movement. We prefer Ikhwan Al Muslimeen over the Taliban.

Make your own place, let be small but your own. Try to evovle a free society of Pashtuns, try to liberate them from traditions which are bad, recall them those traditions which are good, try to involve them in good deeds instead to teach them about the old Khilafati Usmania like movements.

Good deeds only come from good conditions; if You want good deeds then you have to Liberate them from bad conditions; and Disunity is bad condition. YOu cant have good deeds when every good deed you do is fruitless. Therefore we must examine things from a perspective of reality.

You have to make a good structure of society to create a society performing good deeds. So teaching them is the Khilafah is exactly what we need to do.

[Pashtun_Ultranationalist]

Toramana, you noticed the guys who thanked Mr Edge turn out to be Pro Pakistanis or Taliban supporters such as Luffy, UnknownPrince and the Fzpz.

Toramana I have only one answer to this thread as follows:

Mr Edge, at the end of the day, we support Secularism and Progression and we choose to live under such laws and Political theory, you support an Pan-Arabist Arabian Imperialist Agenda and oppose a Secular one, you continue to live in a Secular society and enjoy the freedom to express your deluded thoughts.

I think you are a Hypocrite and a ranting loony! Everything you say is illogical and a conspriacy. Your an Imperialist yourself, as you want all us Pashtuns to follow the Arab way of life instead one of our own choosing, Your ranting from the US of A and telling Pashtuns too avoid the life for which your enjoying, HYPOCRITE!

Finally to end this note, Your half a Pashtun, but you seem to be more interested in your Arab side, always remmeber,

"we maybe Muslims by faith, but we are Pashtun by blood, no way in hell will be drop our Rabab for your Arab Drum!"

There is a limit to things, and you go above it. Your comments are filled with hypocritical language.

I want my Pashtuns to be Pashtuns, to follow a Reform and modernised Pashtunwali system, I would never wish upon my Pashtun people to follow a Wahabi/Arab/Bedione style justice system.

I would rather impliment a Israeli Democracy model in Pashtun Hewad, than the wicked corrupted Arabian Bediione Monarchy mixed with Wahabi Sharia.

The Arab world is probably the only part of the world that supports Backward praticies such as Slavery,its the only part of the world that has never heard of a trade unionist and is probably the only world of the world with such a low research and development level,

Mr Edge, even though the West has had a imperialist past, but it comes nothing to the Arab Imperialist past, The West may invade countries, but its Arabs who request them to do so, Iraq,Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar,Oman and Libya.

Even with all its wealth it has not invented, produced a single thing or developed anything besides Terrorism. Bosnia saved itself from the Wahabis from using them and then booting them out, why cant we Pashtuns do the same?

Plus, Mr Edge, no where on this planet would you find a country such as Dubai who expoits young Muslims with no wages but clear modern day slavery, atleast in the west, employees and employers have rights, they have unionists defending them, they have a set mininum wage and payment is always made unlike in the Arab world where protests against the Sheiks is deemed Sinful but exploiting Non Arab Muslims and paying them pennies for hard labour is considered good.

Mr Edge, nobody cares about the Middle East

[Pashtun_Ultranationalist]

What is it with Mr Edge and the term Collaborators. No offence dude, you wouldnt have been born if it wasnt for your other half collaborating with CIA. lol!

[ScimitarXEdge]

Hi Pakistani Ultra Nationalist;

Here's my response

Toramana, you noticed the guys who thanked Mr Edge turn out to be Pro Pakistanis or Taliban supporters such as Luffy, UnknownPrince and the Fzpz.

Toramana I have only one answer to this thread as follows:

Mr Edge, at the end of the day, we support Secularism and Progression and we choose to live under such laws and Political theory, you support an Pan-Arabist Arabian Imperialist Agenda and oppose a Secular one, you continue to live in a Secular society and enjoy the freedom to express your deluded thoughts.

If Aab-e-Hayat/Luffy, Unknownprince or whoever else thank me, it's because Your arguments and claims lack concrete evidence in support of them. It has nothing to do with whether we're Pro-Pakistani, Anti Pakistani or Pro American. Logic Depends on Merit of Evidence and doesn't depend on who's beliefs or ideas one has.

As a matter of by using Arguments of this Nature; you're committing a Logical Fallacy of Ad-Hominem.

And also you're wrong, Randolph also thanked me, and he's neither pro Pakistani nor American.

Ghundal is neither pro Pakiistani or Pro American;

So people thanked me not because of their agenda; but because it's the Truth.

Mr Edge, at the end of the day, we support Secularism and Progression and we choose to live under such laws and Political theory, you support an Pan-Arabist Arabian Imperialist Agenda and oppose a Secular one, you continue to live in a Secular society and enjoy the freedom to express your deluded thoughts.

Then you admitting to Double Talk and Contradiction; In other threads you have claimed that Pashtuns should follow their own culture; here you want Pashtuns to "change and modify" their culture and specifically Pashtunwali, Your ideals of progress and modification are wholly defined by Corrupt Imperialist Models of society, which are against nature and dysfunctional.


Pan Arabist is Secular; Ba'ath who were Pan Arabists were secular. But most of all there's no such thing as Arab Imperialism ; because Arab countries are presently occupied by Imperialists; so whatever alleged Imperialism you view is really an extension of Capitalist Imperialism. Pan Arabists are not Imperialists; their goal is to unite Arabs in the Arab world, not work towards other parts of the world; irregardless of religious identity. Not expand outside of the Arab world. They're at best tools of Imperialists in that they divide Muslims based on ethnicity.

So not only is your premise of the existence of Arab Imperialism logically false; it is also a false accusation you made against me, which clearly intended to Divert the Contradictions and Distortions which work in the Favor of Imperialism in the Middle East and Central Asia from Capitalist Hegemonic Agenda.

So based on the evidence; if anyone is deluded here it's you; you base your arguments on Fallacies, Logical Inconsistencies and Fabricated Propaganda, that is the epitome of delusion.

I think you are a Hypocrite and a ranting loony! Everything you say is illogical and a conspriacy. Your an Imperialist yourself, as you want all us Pashtuns to follow the Arab way of life instead one of our own choosing, Your ranting from the US of A and telling Pashtuns too avoid the life for which your enjoying, HYPOCRITE!

"Illogical and conspiracy" But Yet somehow you believe Pan-Arabism isn't Secular and that Arab Imperialism is a reality even though Such a claim has no evidence. What you demonstrate in your arguments is Precisely what a Conspirary Theory is; baseless arguments of clandestine activities. The things I state are overt and have been demonstrated by history.


If you want to discuss logic; your posts are full of logical fallacies; just examine the topic above to examine how your conclusions have Logical Contradictions in them. What is evident

Your claim here is similarly intellectually dishonest; Because even if we take your premise that AlQaeda are an Arab Imperial Movement rather than Simply Misguided Extremists; there's nothing in AlQaeda which would be described as promoting Arab Lifestyle. Arabs generally listen to music; and have arts and crafts. Alqaeda seemingly oppose those both in Arab societies and elsewhere. The things you attribute to Arabs are actually Pashtun; even confirmed by Pashtun thinkers such as Ghani Khan and Pashtun historical chronicles; This meaks your assertions false. What you appear to be doing is fabricating this False Distinction as mechanism to promote Imperialist way of life.

Perhaps that's why you believe others are Arab Imperialists; becauise you yourself are a British/Capitalist Mentally colonized Slave of Imperialists, hence believe others are too.

What is the life I am enjoying? For you to make this claim you'd have to know precisely what sort of lifestyle I lead. Which you don't

BUT LET"S for the sake of argument assume that you're right that I am a hypocrite Double Talking phony. So what? Truth is not based on Human Flaws, Truth is Based on reason and how it corresponds to Intrinsic realities. If I were somehow indulging in some lifestyle engrossed in some sort of extravagant lifestyle; it wouldn't negate any of my arguimennts

Also; living in the West doesn't mean the motive for living in the West is to enjoy the benefits of the west; Western society imposed dependency on the East by imposing their global institutions so living in the West is merely a product of that; this doesn't mean that the west is ideal or that what the West has should be in the East, it means the Imperialists destabilized the habitat of the East so it must depend on imperial institutions to compensate for that.

Yet despite your accusations we have evidence that You Extol Britain and embrace British Identity all despite the fact that it's the British who divided Pashtuns and who's culture is totally in contradiction to the normative morals of Pashtunwali, it is the British who created Pakistan; it's the British who established the Pakistani ISI and it's the British and their Imperialist Collaborators who are exploiting and benefiting from the circumstance of maintaining divisions to propagate their Hegemony.

There's no hypocrisy in anything I espouse here; I'm transparent. It only seems that way to you because you're Brainwashed by Superficial understanding and promote false dichotomies that serve Imperialist propaganda.

I want my Pashtuns to be Pashtuns, to follow a Reform and modernised Pashtunwali system, I would never wish upon my Pashtun people to follow a Wahabi/Arab/Bedione style justice system.

In essence you're willing to alter Pashtun values for the worse by corrupt standards of an imperialist entity While simultaneously claiming that you want Pashtuns to follow their forefathers. The Pashtun forefathers never followed your Imperialist Secularist mentally colonized slave model of Pashtunwali; so you'll have some problems there.

Bedouin,Arab and Wahhabi are not identical things. Bedouin women drive trucks and are usually very involved in domestic and public life; This contradicts Wahhabi doctrine. Arabs have a culture all their own and Wahhabis want to mute that as much as anyone elses culture. It has no ethnic biases.

I would rather impliment a Israeli Democracy model in Pashtun Hewad, than the wicked corrupted Arabian Bediione Monarchy mixed with Wahabi Sharia.

The Arab world is probably the only part of the world that supports Backward praticies such as Slavery,its the only part of the world that has never heard of a trade unionist and is probably the only world of the world with such a low research and development level,

Mr Edge, even though the West has had a imperialist past, but it comes nothing to the Arab Imperialist past, The West may invade countries, but its Arabs who request them to do so, Iraq,Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar,Oman and Libya.

Using the examples of present day Arab Monarchs or Aristocracy doesn't prove your case. You're creating a false dichotomy trying to affiliate Arab Rulers with Pan Islamism. Arab Monarchs are puppets of Imperialist Powers and thereby would not be favored in Pan-Islamic Paradigm. The problems you highlight against Arab monarchs exist in opposition to Pan-Islamic Ideals and have nothing to do with them.

The problems of the Arab world are at least in large part facilitated and reinforced by Imperialist intrusion which support these rulers to maintain the status quo. In reality Israel and the Arab Aristocracy are both apart of the same Imperialist paradigm; just as Secularists are and Ethnic Nationalists elsewhere. So the problems you highlight aren't problems of Islam or problems of Arab values; it's product of Imperialism which you endorse. Which makes your argument a red herring.

Mr Edge, even though the West has had a imperialist past, but it comes nothing to the Arab Imperialist past, The West may invade countries, but its Arabs who request them to do so, Iraq,Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar,Oman and Libya.

The West are still Imperialist; now their Imperialism is called Global Hegemony and they stopped calling themselves the West but Eurocentric Capitalist Bloc because they no longer are centralized in geographic terms.

What you're highlghting here is not Arabs as a populace but rather the Imperialist Puppets of Saudi and Kuwait collaborating with the Imperialism to legitimize their neocolonial conquest.. That's what happened in Iraq and this is why the Arab spring has emerged. Case of Libya is different they're acting out of desperation; but not Imperialist compliance. The West or Capitalist Hegemonic Imperialist Agenda is only trying to take advantage of the situation Just like they did in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Even with all its wealth it has not invented, produced a single thing or developed anything besides Terrorism. Bosnia saved itself from the Wahabis from using them and then booting them out, why cant we Pashtuns do the same?

Again the claim of wealth is a fallacy; Most of the Wealth in the Middle East is only controlled by the Puppets of the Imperialists so development doesn't occur. This isn't the peoples fault as they are suppressed by Imperialist Military backing. Mubarak had 70 Billion dollars; where did he get all this money? The Imperialists, Bosnia is a unique situation, not many Arabs or anyone else went there; just a handful and they're still there from what I understand. The reason Pashtuns cant or wont do the same has more to do with who are real enemy is; and it's not the Arabs; it's the Western Imperialists

and the fact you side with them. makes you the enemy of Pashtuns too.

Plus, Mr Edge, no where on this planet would you find a country such as Dubai who expoits young Muslims with no wages but clear modern day slavery, atleast in the west, employees and employers have rights, they have unionists defending them, they have a set mininum wage and payment is always made unlike in the Arab world where protests against the Sheiks is deemed Sinful but exploiting Non Arab Muslims and paying them pennies for hard labour is considered good.

Again Dubai is an imperialist puppet regime; so most of what you see there is an extension of Maintaining divide and rule in the region. Prop one segment against the other and reap and exploit the resources. This red herring you present is a diversion from that and thus is used to overlook Imperialism's role in supporting the status quo. In the West the labor laws are mainly for people who are middle class or wealthy. Poor families and Immigrant workers are used and exploited. Just look at what happens to Workers in Mexico. or what American businesses do in third world countries.

Mr Edge, nobody cares about the Middle East

Everyone cares about the Middle East if no one cared there wouldnt be so much focus in the media over it; it's important because unity of Muslim countries will be crucial for our future and for the advancement of our society scientifically, economically and spiritually.

[ScimitarXEdge]

What is it with Mr Edge and the term Collaborators. No offence dude, you wouldnt have been born if it wasnt for your other half collaborating with CIA. lol!

Because that's what you are; collaborators

Anyone can make a claim like if it wasnt for such and such or so and so. If it wasnt for British colonizing India; you wouldnt be their slave right now collaborating them.

This is irrelevant what matters is what their doing is ultmately detrimental so thereby they should be opposed; doesn't matter if their actions created the effects of why we exist today. Honestly I'd that slaves like you never existed.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I wonder how Dagarwal pays for his rent and food when he lives on this forum and just spends all his time searching past threads.

are you on welfare?

[ډګروال]

Toragaddana Khudai di mrsta waki

ghaib wum? mana lari chi put wum? senga? za wraz pa wraz delta shawai yum aw delta walar shum chi sta pa jawab bande gorum magar jawab neshta Yemen ta talalai na wum lakin yemen zema pa zra ki sat dai

kom dodai la yemen aw markaz-e-mashreq ghwarai?

says the guy who claims to be born here "delta shawai yum"

[RevolutionThroughReason]

so you live on welfare?

[khwazun]

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with honest people receiving welfare, if an individual genuinely needs it due to situations and circumstances beyond their control. But for someone seemingly always online, constantly propagating venomous anti-Western/pro-Taliban rhetoric from Europe, being content as a certified state parasite co-dependent on the government probably isn't the best approach. It's just bad for public relations and image... The irony is staggering.

[ډګروال]

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with honest people receiving welfare, if an individual genuinely needs it due to situations and circumstances beyond their control. But for someone seemingly always online, constantly propagating venomous anti-Western/pro-Taliban rhetoric from Europe, being content as a certified state parasite co-dependent on the government probably isn't the best approach. It's just bad for public relations and image... The irony is staggering.

there seems to be something inheritly wrong with you.

lets counter your lies ,one by one.

- i dont get any welfare. I got a job and pay taxes.

- always online ? another blatant lie. prove it.

- im not anti western and being against war in Afghanistan doesnt mean being anti western. if that was so than Ron Paul is the biggest anti western. You dont own Europe.

the rest of your post you are just having a diarria,go to the doctor.

[Kushan Prince]

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with honest people receiving welfare, if an individual genuinely needs it due to situations and circumstances beyond their control. But for someone seemingly always online, constantly propagating venomous anti-Western/pro-Taliban rhetoric from Europe, being content as a certified state parasite co-dependent on the government probably isn't the best approach. It's just bad for public relations and image... The irony is staggering.

Majority of these goons receiving welfare are young African Americans living in housing projects. Of course half the taxes go to welfare to these no job people.

[khwazun]

there seems to be something inheritly wrong with you.

Are you just now coming to that conclusion?

lets counter your lies ,one by one.

Let's not.

if that was so than Ron Paul is the biggest anti western.

I could've told you that. Ron Paul is the greatest threat to Western civilization on the planet right now. This man must be stopped.

You dont own Europe.

Another blatant lie, prove it.