Are Pan-Islamists covert Pan-Arabists?

[ScimitarXEdge]

This thread is intended to deal directly with the claim of Imperialist collaborators such as Toramana and MI6 that Pan-Islamist movement is covertly an attempt at Arab ethno-centric conquest; which of course as many of you know is a propaganda tactic made by Imperialists to forge a wedge against Islamic unity, their biggest threat and turn Muslim populations against Islam to make them more compatible with IMperialist conquest and enslavement.

Here's some interesting material I have been finding which shows empirical data that such a claim is and has always been largely exaggerated or unfounded.

Muslim Brotherhood in Syria was founded in the late 1930s or mid 1940s. In the first decade or so of independence it was part of the legal opposition, and in the 1961 parliamentary elections it won ten seats. After the 1963 coup brought the secularist, pan-ArabistBaath Party to power, it was banned.[1] The Brotherhood played a major role in the mainly Sunni-based resistance movement that opposed the Baath Party

We can also see that a similar debate exists on this forum; in which The Author, Toramana's, own sources refute the claim.

I advise readers to examine the post below for details; and evidence of Toramana's claim being refuted.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...ndex2.html#top

This argument should be explored further to examine which claim has the most evidential merit.

Feel Free to discuss.

[ScimitarXEdge]

http://www.gulfwar1991.com/Gulf%20Wa...0El-Najjar.htm

Actually, Christian Arabs have played a pioneering role in the revival of Arab nationalism throughout the twentieth century. For example, the two major Arab nationalist political organizations, the Arab Nationalist Movement and the Arab Ba'ath Party, were founded by two Christians: the Palestinian George Habash and the Syrian Michelle Aflaq, respectively.

this is extremely crucial to note.

[graveyardofempires]

who gives a ****

[ScimitarXEdge]

we do; because this is being used as a propaganda tactic by people who's sole wish is so that Imperialists can culturally and economically maintain it's hegemony and conquests of Asia and the Middle East by using this as a scapegoat.

[graveyardofempires]

^^
bro when i see your comments it seems that you want to suggest everyone is bad except for you and the "pan islamists".

those people who want to use this "arab imperialism" story to put forth their anti Islamic agenda are exposed,by themselves so there is no need for explaination especially on a pashtun forum.

the same way you are using the "pan islamist" card to paint everyone not in your way of thinking as somehow criminal.

[ScimitarXEdge]

That's not true; I don't see traditionalists as all criminals; I don't agree with their approach but I don't see them as criminals. I don't see people who want Pashtun unity as criminals, but I find that those who have exploited the idea of Nationalism have done so against the betterment of their nation.

I see Hekmatyar, Rabbani and Massoud as criminals; and they claimed to be about Islamic Brotherhood. My goal here is to demonstrate whether the ideology itself was crafted for the purpose of ethnocentric goals; and the reason I observe that individuals believe this fallacy is because their ideology is based on ethnic divisions. This is directly crafted by the British.

[khushal]

^^
those people who want to use this "arab imperialism" story to put forth their anti Islamic agenda are exposed,by themselves so there is no need for explaination especially on a pashtun forum.

There are many people that buy into it if they don't hear the other side of the story. Nationalism is the main weapon against the interests of all people. Look at how people are pitted against each other for the interests of others. You have Tajik nationalists pitted against Pashtun nationalist, Pashtun nationalists against Panjabi nationalists. Instead of working against each other it is more beneficial to work with each other. Nationalists never work with each other, it is contradictory of nationalists ideology.

Nationalists compete for kissing the imperialist masters *ss more than the opposing nationalist. In the game of nationalism the winner is the one that kissed the most *ss. This is the reason that Pashtuns are not nationalists at heart because they refuse to bow down to any master.

Toraman's argument that Arab imperialism is the real threat to Pashtuns is actually destructive to Pashtuns and Arabs. He wants to mobilize the pashtuns under a nationalistic agenda and create a scenerio for opposing nationalist societies that are pitted against each other and each competing to be the better slave for the imperial master.

This is a disservice to all people. To the conquered people and to the ones doing the conquering. It just creates suffering of the masses while the few individual elites prosper materially but still are destroyed spiritually.

[ScimitarXEdge]

exactly Khushal; people like Toramana don't just appear, they're created whatever their predecessors brainwashed them into thinking, they carry on and so on.

Their target is to create enmity with people who given the current global circumstances; should be our allies.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Toramana and other Imperialist collaborators; please provide a response to the contents of this thread.

[khushal]

They can't respond, they don't even believe in the stuff they preach. They are a bunch of kiss *ss lakies. If you can't defend what you preach, you are truly a bunch of hypocrites.

YouTube - 30 Signs of the Hypocrites

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Hi Toramana remember this thread? It's back

[Pashtun_Ultranationalist]

Mr Edge

I personally do not wish to debate on this topic as it would make me vulnerable to being banned as some of my views regarding Islamists are quite known.

I can only point to one reason why I believe Pan-Islamists are Pan-Arabists or supporting an Arab Nationalist Agenda is as follows:-

"A Pashtun, being alien to the Arab way of thinking, is being threatened, lashed and expelled(called an Kaffir) because he/she refuses to pray towards Mecca or adopt 1200 ad Arab customs." That is Real Imperialism.

I mean not to offend, but in defence of myself and Toramana, that is the real Imperialism. Its called Cultural/Spirtual Imperialism.

Having our Historical sites blown up, having our history washed away and languaged replaced with Arabic words, having our region introduced to laws of Arabia, whereby Women are not spared excuted in public or lashed over minor petty reasons.

That is Imperialism not America or the West. Nobody is forcing Pashtuns to follow Secularism, on the other hand, we see 1000s of Arabs in Pakhtunkhwa and Afghanistan enforcing their "Brand of Sharia" upon Locals who have never seen such brutality and barbarity.

Mr Edge, I have not seen a single Pashtun secularist roam around the streets in 4 by 4 pick up trucks executing even women.

Your Pan Arabists followers and the deluded Militants who think being brutal upon their own people to please a bunch of deluded Semitic Loonies from Arabia including those Jews too.

Pashtuns have their own brand of Islam, and its very secular by nature, as I said before, we have protected Sikhs and Hindus, even when India broke up, the raging Punjabi Mullahs went on a rampagin to slaughter any Hindu they can find, it was the Pashtuns who protected their escape.

We have never practiced Jizya on our minorities and neither have we ever blown ourselves up and slaughtered innocent people, until Arabs came over and brought their slaughter culture with them.

Our region was peaceful, people prayed whenever they wanted, there was no Clerical rule and neither was there any trouble between Shias and Sunnis, as I said before, that was until Arabs came over and runined things.

Pashtuns should continue to follow their own reformed Islam as their forefathers did and not be infleunced by Tehran or Ridyad.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Pakistani Ultra Nationalist; I'm sure you and Toramana have been contemplating on how to reply back to my threads and posts; Toramana generally runs away like a coward when asked for support his claims with evidence or when confronted with evidence which show the contrary of the claiims. I was almost willing to commend you for responding, but your response itself is so saturated with Logical Fallacies and outright Intellectual Dishonesty; this is more like veiled cowardice at it's core.

Lets examine exactly WHY you're wrong?

Firstly; there is no spiritual or cultural imperialism as done by the Arabs; Based on the issue of punishment for criminal acts; there are numerous existing examples of similar or identical penalties already existing in Pashtun culture; If you ever read Ghani Khan's writings or any cultural analysis regarding Pashtunwali from Anthropological and Sociological Studies; penalties for things such as Adultery and consuming Alcohol or Intoxicants were already existing. Ghani Khan says capital penalty for adultery is an ANCIENT Pashtun practice and most specifically he emphasizes such practices Relate to the balance of Nature..i.e. which indicates it has nothing to do with any cultural view but a Principle of Natural Law for regulating society. Wazir Akbar Khan had all the Kabul women who had relations with the British executed during the first Anglo-Afghan War.

Secondly; The things which are associated with "Arab Influence" have nothing to do with Arab Viewpoints, or bedouin viewpoints. The Arabs who come to Afghanistan are generally not bedouin, so the association is false. . Things like the banning of music is not an Arabic custom; simply because in Arabic countries they have their own music and arts. None of that music or arts were being transmitted to Pashtuns. The banning of music and arts has to do with an extremist Interpretation of religion which is absent of Cultural Features. If you examine the Origins of Wahhabism, it arose because the Founder was disturbed by the cultural practices of the Arabian Peninsula. If Wahhabism was Arab culture, there wouldn't be a backlash towards Arab culture. So the claim you make is patently false. Whether you do this deliberately I'm not sure about. I believe you purposely pass inaccurate information hence this is intellectual dishonesty.


Arabic words have been used in the Pashto language for centuries. there was no Arab motivated Agenda to do this; look in any Old Dictionary of Pashto and it's replete with Arabic words. Even the name of the tribes of FATA, WAZIR and Mehsoud(Maseed) are using Arab names for their tribes. It was their choice to do so. Furthermore things which have been cultural vestiges

Regarding Historical relics. You mean the Bamiyan Statues? Well although blowing up statues proved nothing; it's false to say "these are our cultural relics"; Those who made the Bamiyan Buddha were Indo-Prakrit Speaking people; If we';re going to advocate the Sanctity of Pashtun culture, Pashto Language and Pashtun heritage then there's No sense in claiming such relics as Our own. Furthermore historically even Pashtun Rulers of the past showed little to no respect for it. If you're trying to preserve culture and heritage that is fine; but don't claim some other culture which just happened to exist in the same region was Pashtun. If anything that demonstrates that would be an example of imposing cultural imperialism.

It's also not true that it was some intrinsic cultural feature that Pashtuns went around protecting Sikhs and Hindus, Pashtuns had major wars with Sikhs and Hindus for centuries. Ahmad Shah Baba destroyed the Sikh Golden Temple in Amritsar , . Also it's not true that every Punjabi went around killing Sikhs and Hindus; and this is evident by the fact there are More Hindus in Bahawalpur , Punjab than there is in all of Khyber Pashtunkhwah.

It's also not true that Pashtuns have historically had a "secular form" of Islaam; Ahmad Shah Abdali established Shari'ah courts and a Shari'ah system. Mir Wais Khan Hotak, would rely on the advisement of religious doctrine to engage in his political decisions. All demonstrate Non-Seculairm. Shi'a-Sunni conflicts have existed even amongst Pashtuns prior to any alleged modern Arab involvement. Mir Wais Khan Hotak's rebellion was against Shi'i doctrine in Qandahar. The Toori and Zazi were combating each other over these issues.

Other inaccuracies; is that you claimed Our areas were peaceful? We have had tribal and interethnic conflicts for centuries; Even Pashtun history is mainly battles between this tribe against that tribe.

Yaw matal shta chi wayi "da Pakhtun pa solay dai kala chi jang kawi" If Pashtuns were merely peace loving people this saying would never exist.

Your whitewashed portrayal of Pashtun Secularists as not harming Pashtuns is false. Numerous accounts of KHaD members kidnapping women, raping women, cutting off womens breasts, Najibullah used to take orders from the KGB Office directly. Meaning he was a stooge and not independent and only worked for Russian Interests.

Najib's own brother indicated that Najib went against Pashtun standard and moral principle. So can secularists be fefending Pashtuns? When they're the ones who contradict the morals of Pashtuns in whatever way shape or form.

Even if we say people were made or forced to do something; the issue of what makes something IMperialism or not s not what whether is something is forced or not; but Whether what's being propagated is Valid or not And how something is Valid or not is determined by how it Corresponds with the The Natural Balance of life. This is what makes Secularism a vestige of Western Imperialism and why pan Islamism is not,

[ScimitarXEdge]

Pan-Arabists and their ideals are more or less the same as Pan-Islamist ideals because apart from Islam, Gulf Arabs do not have a culture as such.

As for "scantily clad Lebanese singers" with "Christian names", there is no such thing as "Christian names". Biblical names are often adapted into the follower's language, eg, Arabic: Yaqub (English: Jacob) Arabic: Haroon (English: Aaron) and many Lebanese people are actually Christians.

This is not true and Pan Arabists and Pan Islam cannot be the same because of what you mentioned, the existence of Christian Arabs. This would nullify Pan Islam.

[ghundal]

I am not an Islamist, I am a Muslim. Islamist term has been made up by the west.

you guys need to stop disguising your hatred for the pure Islam which is a religion for all of humanity. It taught equality and freedom. It is a religion of the just. If it was not for Islam, your backside would not be clean (maybe some of you dont wash in the name of being modern LOL hahahah)

Arabs today have lost their Islam for the most part, so no pan-Muslim thought is not part of Arab culture.