Pakistan

[BarakzaiAbdali]

barakzai saab inter-tribal differences and clashes r not as such as you r assuming. Wazir and mehsud do have differences and enemity but they quickly become one outside waziristan and their unity is examplary.
Recently marwats and bhittanis had war but both associate with each other than with others because they are neighbours and r similar tribes in terms of dialect and culture.
We fight with each other but we also love each other, sorry its hard for me to explain the point in my broken english.

Salaam Luffy Khan Saib,

Dont worry, your English is not broken and you are doing fine. I dont disagree on their ability to unite. In fact the current insurgency shows that the durand line divide is torn asunder when a common cause against an invader is seen. However, the Kharoti Wazir rivalry is undeniable and it actually straddles the durand line. As an example, not too long ago, some Kharotyaan utilized the US firepower to launch a missile across the border into a Waziri household.

Whatever the case is, I wish for the best, but when you have Commander Azizullahs in the ANA, and other mercenaries you have a lost cause.

[khushal]

Road,
Your calling it a government in exile, when in fact they were just proxies used to destroy the afghan state. If it was an actual government in exile, the civil war would not have ensued. Helmatyar, Rabanni and Masood were all opportunists that just wanted power but neither of them had any motivation to work for the afghan people interests. These opportunists were intentionally chosen by the Pakistani state because they served Pakistani interests and they were completely dependent on pakistan.

[roadrunner]

Road,
Your calling it a government in exile, when in fact they were just proxies used to destroy the afghan state. If it was an actual government in exile, the civil war would not have ensued. Helmatyar, Rabanni and Masood were all opportunists that just wanted power but neither of them had any motivation to work for the afghan people interests. These opportunists were intentionally chosen by the Pakistani state because they served Pakistani interests and they were completely dependent on pakistan.

Do you know anything about Afghanistan out of interest?

Rabbani had nothing to do with Pakistan. Hekmatyar was the only one for a period of time.

They all wanted power, yes, but they were also armed with the most powerful militias during the Afghan-Soviet war. Why do you think they would just lay down their arms following the Afghan-Soviet War? Because Pakistan says so?

[khushal]

WE are well aware of the Pashawar accords.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war_in_Afghanistan_(1992%E2%80%931996)

Foreign Intrusion and Responsibility for the War

After the Soviet withdrawal in 1989 and the collapse of the Afghan communist Najibullah regime in 1992 the Afghan political parties agreed on a peace and power-sharing agreement (the Peshawar Accords) in early 1992. An Afghan interim government was appointed by the Peshawar Accords to initiate a process leading towards national elections. Pakistan was strictly opposed to the new developments in Afghanistan.
Afghanistan expert Neamatollah Nojumi states: "These new political and military developments in Afghanistan forced the Pakistani intelligence agency ISI to organize a military plan with forces belonging to Hekmatyar's Hezb-i Islami ... This militaristic plan aimed to capture Kabul and was in full force when ... the rest of the Muhajideen leaders in Pakistan agreed to the UN peace plan. On the eve of the successful implementation of the UN peace plan in Afghanistan the ISI, through Hekmatyar and non-Afghan volunteers, led hundreds of trucks loaded with weapons and fighters to the southern part of Kabul."[1] Well-known Afghanistan expert, Amin Saikal, concludes in his book which was chosen by The Wall Street Journal as 'One of the "Five Best" Books on Afghanistan': "Pakistan was keen to gear up for a breakthrough in Central Asia. ... Islamabad could not possibly expect the new Islamic government leaders, especially Massoud (who had always maintained his independence from Pakistan), to subordinate their own nationalist objectives in order to help Pakistan realize its regional ambitions. ... Had it not been for the ISI’s logistic support and supply of a large number of rockets, Hekmatyar’s forces would not have been able to target and destroy half of Kabul."

It was in Pakistans interests to destroy Kabul. Rabani, Hekmatyar, and Masood were Pakistan proxies since 1973 working against Daud's regime. The underlying causes of this whole mess started during Dauds regime. the rest were just effects of the decisions he made.

[randolph85]

i don't get why roadrunner is defending a state that would gladly kill him for money.

[khushal]

i don't get why roadrunner is defending a state that would gladly kill him for money.

Its called ignorance. the house slave always defended the ones that bought, sold, raped, and killed them as commodities.

[salahuddin]

Road Runner

Pakistan supported Anti Govt Afghan rebels, there name was the Peshawer 7.

Pakistan supported them way before any soviet entered Afghanistan.

Pakistan supported the Panjshir valley rebellion against Afghanistan Government.

Sadly, Most Afghans joined hands with the ISI and choose superstitious beliefs over Modernisation and progressive, and now Afghanistan is one of the worlds most failed states due to this wrong decision.

Its time we tell all sides to go away, including the clerics.

Ban Wahabism and Ban Salafism, Reform Sufism and keep Shiaism to a limit. Encourage progressive thought, love all mankind, work with other countries in technology and education, do research and development, replace the 1000s of mosques and madrassahs into care shelters for the homeless and sick, keep one mosque per neightbourhood instead of 50 per street.

[randolph85]

Its called ignorance. the house slave always defended the ones that bought, sold, raped, and killed them as commodities.

its sad, really. when one tries to find a sense of belonging by siding with man made notions of nation states, especially those that are more sound in ideology than reality. if pakistan was really created for muslims, than those very same muslims would be very much opposed to the artificial state that was created for them.

as with afghanistan, i feel a sense of belonging but i understand that it is a man made entity and afghanistan or no afghanistan i am still a muslim. the thing about afghanistan is that historically we have had some good leaders, some bad, and some downright awful. so an afghan can relate to the good, the bad or the ugly depending on their ideology, whereas pakistan has always been ruled by awful people since day 1.

[randolph85]

Road Runner

Pakistan supported Anti Govt Afghan rebels, there name was the Peshawer 7.

Pakistan supported them way before any soviet entered Afghanistan.

Pakistan supported the Panjshir valley rebellion against Afghanistan Government.

Sadly, Most Afghans joined hands with the ISI and choose superstitious beliefs over Modernisation and progressive, and now Afghanistan is one of the worlds most failed states due to this wrong decision.

Its time we tell all sides to go away, including the clerics.

Ban Wahabism and Ban Salafism, Reform Sufism and keep Shiaism to a limit. Encourage progressive thought, love all mankind, work with other countries in technology and education, do research and development, replace the 1000s of mosques and madrassahs into care shelters for the homeless and sick, keep one mosque per neightbourhood instead of 50 per street.

now u just sound like that clown najib. blame pakistan and america but not even a peep about russia. except today the names have changed. u are not a genuine person and ur opinions hold no weight. i may agree with some of what u say but i would also agree with george bush if he were to say the sky is blue.

also, what is ur idea of modernization? because mine is higher living standards, education, security, infrastructure, and stability. whereas ur idea of the word is more likely than not night clubs, mcdonalds, ***** houses, herpes, fag marriage, winos, and abortions galore.

dont hijack a word like "modernization" to suit ur perveted and backwards idea of what society should look like.

[khushal]

Do you know anything about Afghanistan out of interest?

Rabbani had nothing to do with Pakistan. Hekmatyar was the only one for a period of time.

They all wanted power, yes, but they were also armed with the most powerful militias during the Afghan-Soviet war. Why do you think they would just lay down their arms following the Afghan-Soviet War? Because Pakistan says so?

You forcing me to call you an idiot when you say things that make no sense.

It is a fact that reading makes you less of an idiot.
Ghost wars: the secret history of ... - Google Books

"Some of our brothers deem armed struggle necessary to topple this criminal government." Rabbani declared at one meeting at the Faculty of islamic Law a few months later. They aquired weapons and built connections in the Afghan Army, but lacked a path to power. When daud cracked down on the Islamists a year later, Masoud, Hekmatyar, Rabbani, and the rest of the organizations member fled to Pakistan.
The Pakistani Government Embraced them. Douds nascent communist support had the Pakistan army worried. The exiled Islamists offered the army a way to pursue influence in Afghanistan. Massoud, Hekmatyar, Rabbani, and about 5000 other young exiles began secret military training under the direction of Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's Afghan affairs adviser, Brigadier General Naseerullah Babar. Babar and Hekmatyar, both ethnic Pashtuns, soon became confidants, and together they harched a plan for an uprising against Daud in 1975. They drafted Massoud to sneak back into the Panjir and start the revolt from there. He did so, and the episode ended badly. Massoud fled to Pakistan for the seond time in two years.

[roadrunner]

WE are well aware of the Pashawar accords.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_w...2%E2%80%931996)

Foreign Intrusion and Responsibility for the War

After the Soviet withdrawal in 1989 and the collapse of the Afghan communist Najibullah regime in 1992 the Afghan political parties agreed on a peace and power-sharing agreement (the Peshawar Accords) in early 1992. An Afghan interim government was appointed by the Peshawar Accords to initiate a process leading towards national elections. Pakistan was strictly opposed to the new developments in Afghanistan.
Afghanistan expert Neamatollah Nojumi states: "These new political and military developments in Afghanistan forced the Pakistani intelligence agency ISI to organize a military plan with forces belonging to Hekmatyar's Hezb-i Islami ... This militaristic plan aimed to capture Kabul and was in full force when ... the rest of the Muhajideen leaders in Pakistan agreed to the UN peace plan. On the eve of the successful implementation of the UN peace plan in Afghanistan the ISI, through Hekmatyar and non-Afghan volunteers, led hundreds of trucks loaded with weapons and fighters to the southern part of Kabul."[1] Well-known Afghanistan expert, Amin Saikal, concludes in his book which was chosen by The Wall Street Journal as 'One of the "Five Best" Books on Afghanistan': "Pakistan was keen to gear up for a breakthrough in Central Asia. ... Islamabad could not possibly expect the new Islamic government leaders, especially Massoud (who had always maintained his independence from Pakistan), to subordinate their own nationalist objectives in order to help Pakistan realize its regional ambitions. ... Had it not been for the ISI’s logistic support and supply of a large number of rockets, Hekmatyar’s forces would not have been able to target and destroy half of Kabul."

It was in Pakistans interests to destroy Kabul. Rabani, Hekmatyar, and Masood were Pakistan proxies since 1973 working against Daud's regime. The underlying causes of this whole mess started during Dauds regime. the rest were just effects of the decisions he made.

Do you realize what wikipedia is? I'm just asking since you quote so often even after i point out to you that you yourself probably wrote this.

You've got one whole reference there, over something irrelevant actually, made by someone who has conveniently ignored that Masood had surrounded Kabul on the eve of the peace plan implementation (a slight bias I would say).

Worse still. You've not realized that Massoud and Hekmatyar were attacking Kabul in order to wrestle control from Najibullah. That wasn't the problem. Najibullah was to be removed as part of the UN peace plan. The Peshawar Accords were broken by Rabbani.

You really don't have the slightest clue about Afghanistan, do you? Are you really a non Pashtun?

[roadrunner]

Road Runner

Pakistan supported Anti Govt Afghan rebels, there name was the Peshawer 7.

Pakistan supported Hekmatyar for a time, but not all the "anti-government rebels". The anti government rebels were supported by Iran, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Tajikistan etc. The "government rebels" were supported by Moscow.

Pakistan offered its territory to allow discussions for the smooth transition of power from the pro-Moscow regime of Najibullah to the powersharing regime of the warlords as part of the UN peace plan.

WHAT WENT WRONG? Where did the UN peace plan fail? The pro Moscow government had agreed to go. Who do you think instigated the problem afterwards, and why?

Pakistan supported them way before any soviet entered Afghanistan.

Pakistan did support the anti-Soviet factions, yes. But mainly to allow those factions strategic depth from where to launch attacks from.

Those anti-Soviet factions had their loyalties elsewhere.

Sadly, Most Afghans joined hands with the ISI and choose superstitious beliefs over Modernisation and progressive, and now Afghanistan is one of the worlds most failed states due to this wrong decision.

Its time we tell all sides to go away, including the clerics.

Ban Wahabism and Ban Salafism, Reform Sufism and keep Shiaism to a limit. Encourage progressive thought, love all mankind, work with other countries in technology and education, do research and development, replace the 1000s of mosques and madrassahs into care shelters for the homeless and sick, keep one mosque per neightbourhood instead of 50 per street.

You believe Afghanistan should have been part of the USSR, which is one option.

[roadrunner]

You forcing me to call you an idiot when you say things that make no sense.

It is a fact that reading makes you less of an idiot.
Ghost wars: the secret history of ... - Google Books

"Some of our brothers deem armed struggle necessary to topple this criminal government." Rabbani declared at one meeting at the Faculty of islamic Law a few months later. They aquired weapons and built connections in the Afghan Army, but lacked a path to power. When daud cracked down on the Islamists a year later, Masoud, Hekmatyar, Rabbani, and the rest of the organizations member fled to Pakistan.
The Pakistani Government Embraced them. Douds nascent communist support had the Pakistan army worried. The exiled Islamists offered the army a way to pursue influence in Afghanistan. Massoud, Hekmatyar, Rabbani, and about 5000 other young exiles began secret military training under the direction of Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's Afghan affairs adviser, Brigadier General Naseerullah Babar. Babar and Hekmatyar, both ethnic Pashtuns, soon became confidants, and together they harched a plan for an uprising against Daud in 1975. They drafted Massoud to sneak back into the Panjir and start the revolt from there. He did so, and the episode ended badly. Massoud fled to Pakistan for the seond time in two years.

That uprising amounted to nothing, so it did not contribute to Afghanistan's instability.

If you must know, Daud was supporting the Baloch insurgency of the early 70s. He had an interventionist policy on Pakistan (a Nationalist's dream). The objective was just to get him to back down. (Daud Khan had sent Afghan troops disguised as tribesmen into Pakistan's Bajaur before also). So one side was not much better than the other (probably Daud was worse as he was more aggressive over these incidents).

This is all irrelevant to what we're discussing though. You've not really got a clue it would seem.

[roadrunner]

i don't get why roadrunner is defending a state that would gladly kill him for money.

i'm not defending anyone. Accuracy instead of blurting Pakistan to everything that goes wrong is what I support.

I don't really care if the Durand Line stays or goes. It wouldn't make any difference anyway since everyone ignores it.

[khushal]

Road,
you have a hard time following a debate.
you said the Peshawar 7 was a government in exile, I proved to you they were not, but a proxy of Pakistan.
You said that Rabbani had nothing to do with pakistan, I proved to you that he was pakistan's proxy since 1973.

I am aware that rabani broke the peshawar accords, but thats not the point, any one of the parties would have eventually broke it because they were all power hungary opportunists. My point about that quote is that the ISI supplied Hekamtyar knowing full well he was going to use it to destroy Kabul.

The point is the pakistan purpose and interest was to destroy the afghan nation and thats what happened.