Pakistan

[fzpz]

That certainly is true for afghanistani nationalists and indians. Not true for Iran or China. Which neighbors of afghanistan like it? You're treated like dog poop in iran, uzbekistan, tajiks refuse to recognize your tajikiness, and want partition. Hell pashtuns are in a state of civil war within their colonial buffer state construct of afghanistan. The only place you run to escape your wasteland is Pakistan. Where you're treated better than anywhere else. Pakistanis don't hate all afghans, just the incoherent and hard headed policies of certain sections of afghanistani society.

tor khan, urdu was taught in punjab before independence. Many poets of urdu are punjabis (ludhianvi, faiz, iqbal, jhalandari, gulzar etc). The original script of punjabi is shahmukhi, not gurmukhi. In addition the original punjabi literature was developed by punjabi muslims. I understand your agenda though.

admin khan, can you recognize that afghanistan started sponsoring a (failed) insurgency way back before the taliban were even created? Does not exonerate the subsequent reactions of the state of Pakistan, but it seems that the obsession with Pakistan amongst afghans (from afghanistan and non-representative nationalists) leads them to blame everything on Pakistan.

[khushal]

That certainly is true for afghanistani nationalists and indians. Not true for Iran or China. Which neighbors of afghanistan like it? You're treated like dog poop in iran, uzbekistan, tajiks refuse to recognize your tajikiness, and want partition. Hell pashtuns are in a state of civil war within their colonial buffer state construct of afghanistan. The only place you run to escape your wasteland is Pakistan. Where you're treated better than anywhere else. Pakistanis don't hate all afghans, just the incoherent and hard headed policies of certain sections of afghanistani society.
.

Your becoming too emotional. Calm down, read the Qaran, and be in peace. Nobody is attacking you, we are merely criticizing policies by the state. Its not very noble of you to insult defenseless afghan refugees, that is cowardly. The afghan refugees didn't go to Pakistan they went to Pakhtunkwa(pukhtun side) and Pakistani officials stole the UN Aid that was meant for those refugees. they stole food from starving children, that is very shameful.

But Iran is no friend of Pakistan. Iranian infuenced people and pakistani influenced people in afghanistan clash with each other. Pakistan and the Taliban are used by the saudi's and friends to counter Iranian influence eastward. China has no choice but is forced to using Pakistan to contain and create a headache for India.

[roadrunner]

You think Afghans somehow benefited by Pakistan's strategic depth? How so? By being ruled by the Pakistani funded/supported Taliban?

Strategic depth was used by Afghanistan during the Afghan-Soviet war.

During the Afghan-Soviet War, the Afghan resistance used Pakistan's NWFP as strategic depth. Supplies to the Mujahideen were safe from Soviet bombardment and spread over a broader area than just Afghanistan.

So strategic depth is nothing new and Afghans have used Pakistan as strategic depth for themselves.

The situation is this. If India invaded Pakistan, Afghanistan would be there to be used to supply the Pakistani resistance, in the same way Pakistan was there to supply the Afghan resistance.

Both countries have used each other for strategic depth. Do you disagree with this? Or are you adamant that only Pakistan tried to use Afghanistan for strategic depth?

Educating the youth, and enlightening them about human rights. Whatever is the case, I wouldn't do what Pakistan did. The thread is about Pakistan, and what Pakistan did was unacceptable. It supported and funded a movement for it's strategic purposes.

You would educate youth. But HOW? There was a civil war going on. Hundreds of thousands of Afghans were being killed. What was more important? To stop the violence, or to try and educate powerhungry people? Do you think if Pakistan had said to Masood or Dostum or Hekmatyar to stop the Civil War, that the Civil War would have stopped?

I think some background would be helpful here.

As far as I am aware, the UN under Sevan suggested a five point peace plan for power sharing. It did not work. The reason it didn't work was predominantly down to what? Pakistan? Iran? I don't think either were at fault. It was the UN expecting everyone would listen to them, and not bothering to enforce their resolutions. Where did Pakistan fit into this equation? Pakistan did enter the equation later on in trying to unify the maniacs that militant deobandi Islam's spread had created.

Now if I'm wrong on this, explain to me how Pakistan was responsible for the Civil War? You might be correct and I'm missing something.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Pakistan is an Imperial Invention; if Madeline Albright said such and such; it doesn't bear my weight, since clearly it's an attempt for Britain to distance itself and appear like the "good guy"; when they're the culprit.

Pakistan as a state institution is volatile and self destructive; not necessarily by desire but by action. Imagine if Pakistan handled Bangladesh diplomatically; Pakistan would be be massively powerful today, but instead imposing Urdu was more important than Islamic Unity.

We must recognize however, Pakistan as a state apparatus has always been multi ethnic. It's albeit centered within ethnicities of Northern Regions regions primarily. The issue should therefore not be about some imaginary Punjab-centrism. but Feudal Elite Centrism, which happens to be belted along Peshawar , Rawalpindi, Islamabad and Lahore. The Punjabis of Multan are just as sidelined as the Tribesman of FATA and the Balouch of Quetta.

The issue is that Nation-State Apparatus never work because they're intrinsically alligned with Elitism and thereby cannot serve the common people and in turn try to pit one group, in this case Punjabis or Pakhtuns against others.

[Admin Khan]

Dear RoadRunner,

You ignored half of my post. I asked you questions, and raised some points that haven't been answered.

[KingKhan]

I vote Admin Khan for President of Afghanistan. He's done more for his people then any Afghan politician in years. Also has a brain, unlike them as well. So that's my vote.

[roadrunner]

I'll answer them in a bit.

Those two points I would really like to see your answer to though if possible.

[khushal]

Dear RoadRunner,

You ignored half of my post. I asked you questions, and raised some points that haven't been answered.

Admina,
Roads brains is not advanced enough to take in any information that you have delivered already. He is asking you questions that you have already answered.
Your going to end up repeating yourself over and over again. A donkey is going to have a better chance of understanding it than he ever can.

[roadrunner]

that's good news if it's been answered. You can copy and paste the answers then.

I haven't replied because it's time consuming, and most of the post overlaps. I'll get round to it eventually.

But since it's been answered, no doubts the reply to those two points is extremely simple, and should be made available fairly soon....

[Admin Khan]

Greetings,

You said,

So tell me what it is that Pakistan does that is the problem.

That was the main topic of this thread. I told you exactly what the problem is. The problem is Pakistan supporting instability in Afghanistan. The problem is Pakistan meddling in Afghan affairs. Do you understand why Afghans/Pashtuns who inhabit Pakistan and Afghanistan hate the GOP and GOA? Pakistan played a hypocrites role.

During the Afghan-Soviet War, the Afghan resistance used Pakistan's NWFP as strategic depth. Supplies to the Mujahideen were safe from Soviet bombardment and spread over a broader area than just Afghanistan.

There is no doubt about that. The Mujahideen began to fight against the soviets because of American and Pakistani support. It was an American who landed in Pakistan and told the Pashtuns "Go free your country" little did they know they were fighting someone else's war, and serving someone else's interest all along. But that's not even the topic, nor concern here. The problem is with Pakistan, the Islamic brother of Afghanistan. How could the brother in Islam deceive the naive Muslim Pukhtuns?

The situation is this. If India invaded Pakistan, Afghanistan would be there to be used to supply the Pakistani resistance, in the same way Pakistan was there to supply the Afghan resistance.

You are being a bit naive here. You forget the fact that Pakistan made billions during the war on terror, and it has consistently received aid by the USA for carrying it's dirty work. What benefits did Afghanistan get from this "Strategic depth"? A powerful military? advanced infrastructure? All of what I mentioned is what Pakistan gained. Even today, Pakistan is supporting the Taliban, whilst receiving aid from the USA. I think the US is catching up to Pakistan's dirty game now. Pakistan is forcing Afghanistan to be dependent on her. That way, it can continue being Islamabads proxy.


Do you know understand why most Pashtuns/Afghans hate the government of Pakistan?

You would educate youth. But HOW? There was a civil war going on. Hundreds of thousands of Afghans were being killed. What was more important? To stop the violence, or to try and educate powerhungry people?

The violence can be stopped by educating the people. I am not asking you to pull out a notebook and teach them Linear Algebra. If Pakistan wanted to be play a positive role, it could've conducted UN meetings, and sat down with local Afghan cheifs to figure out ways to stop the war. But no, no! Pakistan took advantage of the weak Afghanistan. It made young, naive Afghans fight someone else's war, and they sort of made Afghanistan their 5th province for a good 6 years.

Do you think if Pakistan had said to Masood or Dostum or Hekmatyar to stop the Civil War, that the Civil War would have stopped?

Negotiation.

Now if I'm wrong on this, explain to me how Pakistan was responsible for the Civil War? You might be correct and I'm missing something.

I think I told you this already. I'm not one of those people that blames everything on ISI. I have answered the above way, way to many times now. Please, read all my posts in this thread and you will realize how Pakistan's role ended up being poison for Afghans.

I hope you answer all my points. Also, let's not derail the thread. Your question was answered, and I have yet to see a rebuttal.

[KhalsaWarrior]

But even lower-middle-class Panjabees seem ambivalent to Panjabee in a way that I don't fully understand. If Pashtoons have been lax, it is fair to say that urban Panjabees have done even less for the development and promotion of their language (in original Gurmukhi script), for reasons that I've never been able to establish beyond resentment at anything that might vaguely suggest a recent Hindu past.

Tor Khan, as roadrunner pointed out, the Muslim Punjabis use Shahmukhi, which is a Nastaliq script derived from Arabic and probably introduced by the Mughals. The Nastaliq script predates Gurmukhi by about a 100 years.

[fzpz]

Your becoming too emotional. Calm down, read the Qaran, and be in peace. Nobody is attacking you, we are merely criticizing policies by the state. Its not very noble of you to insult defenseless afghan refugees, that is cowardly. The afghan refugees didn't go to Pakistan they went to Pakhtunkwa(pukhtun side) and Pakistani officials stole the UN Aid that was meant for those refugees. they stole food from starving children, that is very shameful.

But Iran is no friend of Pakistan. Iranian infuenced people and pakistani influenced people in afghanistan clash with each other. Pakistan and the Taliban are used by the saudi's and friends to counter Iranian influence eastward. China has no choice but is forced to using Pakistan to contain and create a headache for India.

Just trying to inject reality my main man. Don't get defensive. I do love you despite our disagreements.You're right, i should read the Qur'an. It would teach both of us not to make up crap.

[roadrunner]

I will answer your previous posts Admin Khan. I'm just interested in understanding Nationalists which is why further points creep up.

There is no doubt about that.

Then you agree that Afghanistan's government (in exile) USED Pakistan's KPW as strategic depth.

But the idea of Afghanistan being used as strategic depth for Pakistan is unacceptable to you.

Is this not hypocrisy?

I am not asking you to pull out a notebook and teach them Linear Algebra. If Pakistan wanted to be play a positive role, it could've conducted UN meetings, and sat down with local Afghan cheifs to figure out ways to stop the war. But no, no! Pakistan took advantage of the weak Afghanistan.

That's exactly what Pakistan tried to do.

Have you not heard of the UN 5 point plan and Peshawar/Islamabad Accords?

A lot of these meetings took place in Pakistan.

I'm looking at what more negotiations Pakistan should have done? It had tried to get the 5 point plan implemented, but lack of will by the UN caused it to falter.

I think I told you this already. I'm not one of those people that blames everything on ISI. I have answered the above way, way to many times now. Please, read all my posts in this thread and you will realize how Pakistan's role ended up being poison for Afghans.

If possible, I'd be greatful if you'd explain this to me as I'm trying to see things from your pov.

[roadrunner]

I have a question if anyone knows the answer btw.

Why were Rabbani and Masood given the role of Presidency and Defence Minister under the transfer of power agreement, and why did Hekmatyar oppose it?

[Admin Khan]

I will answer your previous posts Admin Khan. I'm just interested in understanding Nationalists which is why further points creep up.



Then you agree that Afghanistan's government (in exile) USED Pakistan's KPW as strategic depth.

No. Pakistan used it's own land to make sure it gains influence over Pakistan. Afghanistan had no proper government. Nor were Afghans smart enough to know what's going on. Pakistan trained them[willingly] and sent them off to fight. It's not like Pakistan did Afghanistan a favor. Pakistan found herself a 5th province. A province that was backwards, and had one of the worlds lowest literacy rate. Training Mujahdeen[with Pakistanis free-will]was a golden opportunity for their own strategic depth. So in other words, training Afghans in Pashtunkhwa was part of Pakistans strategic depth, not Afghanistan. And if you want proof for this, just look at the outcome of the war. Pakistan made billions, Pakistan got US aircraft, and it was the Pashtuns who suffered on both sides of the war. Pakistan gained the most out of the civil war. She found herself a destabilized, Pakistan dependent Afghanistan. You being a Thinktank, I don't even think I have to make you understand how beneficial the war that Afghans fought was for Pakistan.

That's exactly what Pakistan tried to do.

Pakistan did the opposite. Pakistan funded, and supported the Mujahadeen for her own benefit. And that outcome shows us what Pakistan's intentions were. Afghanistan served as a proxy for Pakistan, and even as we speak, Pakistan is continuing it's dirty game. That's not what Afghans want Roadrunner, let's be a bit more realistic. You still didn't answer me very basic, yet elementary question.

Do you support the Taliban? What do you think of the Taliban? I want a very basic answer.

Have you not heard of the UN 5 point plan and Peshawar/Islamabad Accords?

If Pakistan wanted something to happen, it could've executed. All that is nothing but smokescreen for the international media. Pakistan's intentions are very clear, it want's a friendly, and dependent Afghanistan. And that is exactly what it pursued, an even today it's supporting the Taliban to pursue that goal. You can tell me all you want about these meetings but the reality is what we see, and what we witnessed.

If possible, I'd be greatful if you'd explain this to me as I'm trying to see things from your pov.

Brother, I don't mind elaborating. However, can you at least read my first few posts in this thread? I really showed you how the Pakistani government played a hypocrites role.

I'm not in a rush. We can take this slowly, that way I can learn from you. And you can learn from me. That's whole purpose of this site, learning.