Pakistan

[roadrunner]

Alright. I didn't read any of that as it was just a personal attack.

If you would like to discuss Dravidesh, please start a new thread. I don't want it on this one.

[khushal]

However that is all history now, and I wish to focus on things more relevant to Pashtuns. The people of Afghanistan have every right to be hostile to a state and military, that of Pakistan, which seeks to keep Afghanistan within its sphere of influence including if necessary by the sponsorship and patronage of radical militant groups ultimately supported by the ISI.

Afghanistan is a multi-ethnic state but the feeling of being an Afghanistani is something very real. An Uzbek in Afghanistan is loyal to Afghanistan and not to Uzbekistan, a Farsi speaker is loyal to Afghanistan and not to Iran or Tajikistan, and a Pashtun in Afghanistan is proud of his country. This is the state created by Baba Ahmed Shah Abdali (rahmatullahi alaih) and which unlike Jinnah’s (a British agent and grandson of a Hindu whose grandchildren are now non-Muslims in India) artificially created state of “Pakistan” (land of the pure, sic.) is a land where the people very much identify with that country. In “Pakistan” (sic.) the constituent ethnic groups however have not formed a pan-Pakistani identity. Punjabis view other races as inferior and themselves as the real Pakistanis and call Indian-origined “Mohajirs” as “kalu” (black) and despise them as inferior and discriminate against them, Punjabis dislike Pashtuns and call them “Khan Sahib”, “Pathan”, “gay Pathan”, “stupid Pathan” etc. Balochis will kill a Punjabi who enters into certain areas of Balochistan.

Afghanistan can be compared to Switzerland where each of the constituent peoples there, the French, Germans and Italians have countries which they could align themselves to i.e. France, Germany and Italy but are in fact loyal to the concept of Switzerland. Pakistan cannot be compared to anything, it is simply suis generis, a failed third world terrorist state run by a brutal and greedy feudal-military elite who misuse religion for their own selfish political aims. If Afghanistan can be compared to Switzerland, Pakistan can be compared to a toilet.

I'm forced to say this is very well said. Pakistan's creation was a crime against humanity and I think the Bangali leaders that decided to succeed from it would go down in history as the first ones to see that its creation was a mistake and only served western interests over its inhabitants interests.

[Alchemist]

^ roadrunner, you are the troll who questioned his statement. If you didn't want to discuss it you wouldn't have responded but since you are such a good paki e-soldier you had to ask for it ...and now that you got it...you don't want it. Be a man and take your own advice ...don't be a kid. You don't have to have the last word in every argument.


You can always tell how good a person is by asking his neighbors about him.

It's not only Afghanistan that "hates" pakistan but also India and Bangladesh and even Iran. Why?

Simply because Pakistan exists as a Parasite in the region.
It exists today because of US Aid and IMF debts. During the war with the soviets, they received 10s of billions of dollars. Now they are home to 43 terrorist "organizations...never mind "the taliban". Everything from drug and guns smugglers and grave robbers, animal poachers come to pakistan to make money.
I am not going to sugar coat it like admin Khan....straight up - Pakistani people have no principles - more than 80% of them are reshowat khor, living off of bribe money. Their whole economy functions on bribe.
And last but not least... ISI ...**** of the universe.

I think there's many on here that don't realize this distinction. Pay attention to this, those that don't.



I think what you're saying here is that Pakistan has used Afghanistan for strategic depth.

Let me ask you to consider this.

When the Soviets invaded, did Afghanistan not use Pakistan as strategic depth so that military/militant centres were still able to fund the resistance? Were you against the anti Soviet resistance? (open question btw, I sometimes wonder if it was a bad thing to do).

the anti soviet resistance that Pakistan backed was Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an infamous criminal warlord.
Pakistan didn't want to help the real heroes of Afghanistan because those Afghans would never accept the durrand line and would also work in the future to counter the militancy of Pakistan...which has continuously violated the sovereignty of Afghanistan. Most of the successful Afghan Commanders didn't even receive a tenth of the Aid given by the saudies and americans.


let's talk about the present. Here we have Pakistani backed terrorist organizations coming into Afghanistan to cause mayhem and destruction.

Suicide bombers recently detained by Afghan security forces have admitted to have received training in Pakistan. At a press conference, a spokesman to National Directorate of Security (NDS) told reporters that 90% of insurgency in the Afghanistan is planned in Pakistan.
And the remaining ten percent of the insurgent attacks are sketched in Afghanistan, but with equipment and ammunition provided by Pakistan.
Afghan forces have detained the facilitator of Jalalabad bank raid. The attack was mainly designed by Pakistani Taliban operating in lawless tribal belt across Afghan borders, NDS Spokesman Lotfullah Mashal told reporters.
"Insurgent attacks are designed in border regions, including Miranshah, Datakhil, Chaman, Bajawur, Wana, northern and southern Waziristan. Suicide attacks are mainly plotted by the leader of Pakistani Taliban Hakimullah Mehsud, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Taiba and Sirajuddin Haqqani network," Mr Mashal said.
Mutiullah, coordinator of Kabul bank attack in Jalalabad that led to the death of dozens, said "They sent me two kalashnikovs, 10 magazines, 6 grenades and one suicide vest. And I kept them for ten days in my house."
Officials in NDS believe that most suicide bombers are Pakistani citizens and a limited number of misguided Afghans are cooperating with insurgents.
Ghamai, a 19-year-old suicide bomber has been arrested by NDS in border regions while crossing into Afghanistan.
"I want to say to all suicide bombers that going to paradise or hell depends on the will of Allah. Suicide boming will never lead us to paradise," said Ghamai.
Akhtar Nawaz is a 14-year-old suicide bomber from Waziristan, who had been forced by Pakistani Taliban to carry out a suicide bombing in Afghanistan, but surrendered himself to Afghan security after crossing border into eastern Khost province.
Last week, in the insurgent raid in Jalalabad, more than 40 civilians lost their lives and scores were hurt.
A couple of days after the attack, video footage of Kabul Bank attack aired by TOLOnews and TOLO televisions outraged Afghan people.
The footage showed a Pakistani suicide bomber dressed in police uniform shooting civilians stuck in Kabul Bank building.
Pakistan has long been under pressure of international community for failing to root out insurgent sanctuaries and safe havens on its soil.
.

YouTube - World Youngest Suicide Bomber Aged 11; Pakistan ISI=Al Qaeda Send Them To Kill Afghans

^ pakistani involved in suicide bombings in Afghanistan.

Thank you pakistan ....

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Roadrunner, prior to the Soviet-Afghan Invasion, there was promise for Pashtuns in that country, the military was Pashtun, the political power, the intelligentsia had a large Pashtun populace. Had the Pashtuns been united under this state many of the interferences of the region probably would not have happened. Combine it with the resources of Pashtunkhwa there was a lot of promise. During Zahir Shah's time all the way down to the communists, higher education was free for Pashtunkhwa students, and many graduated from those universities.

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner, prior to the Soviet-Afghan Invasion, there was promise for Pashtuns in that country, the military was Pashtun, the political power, the intelligentsia had a large Pashtun populace. Had the Pashtuns been united under this state many of the interferences of the region probably would not have happened. Combine it with the resources of Pashtunkhwa there was a lot of promise. During Zahir Shah's time all the way down to the communists, higher education was free for Pashtunkhwa students, and many graduated from those universities.

I don't disagree at all. Sometimes Afghanistan is ahead of Pakhtunkhwa, sometimes Pakhtukhwa is ahead of Afghanistan (such as now).

It may go up and down in the future. HOW is that a problem? When one half of Pashtuns are going through economic hardship or warfare, they have another half that can help them out. This is not a bad state of affairs to be in.

Anything more about the referendum?

[Alchemist]

I don't disagree at all. Sometimes Afghanistan is ahead of Pakhtunkhwa, sometimes Pakhtukhwa is ahead of Afghanistan (such as now).

It may go up and down in the future. HOW is that a problem? When one half of Pashtuns are going through economic hardship or warfare, they have another half that can help them out. This is not a bad state of affairs to be in.

how is pakhtunkhwa ahead of afghanistan?

elaborate.

[khushal]

Roadrunner, prior to the Soviet-Afghan Invasion, there was promise for Pashtuns in that country, the military was Pashtun, the political power, the intelligentsia had a large Pashtun populace. Had the Pashtuns been united under this state many of the interferences of the region probably would not have happened. Combine it with the resources of Pashtunkhwa there was a lot of promise. During Zahir Shah's time all the way down to the communists, higher education was free for Pashtunkhwa students, and many graduated from those universities.

Exactly, this free education and other benefits that was available to KP was a threat to panjos.
The panjos viewed these benefits as tools that might inspire KP to separate or inspire KP to elevate as a society. They didnt want KP to feel too elevated where they feel equal or superior to the panjos.

To this day, the vast majority of KP population doesnt realize that the panjos policy of destroying Afghanistan actually depressed KP society.

[roadrunner]

Of course the Soviet invasion had nothing to do with anything.

In reality, the devilish Punjabis were controlling the Soviet 7th Company.

Seriously, grow up. I really am trying to understand the Nationalist viewpoint. But you lot are not doing a good job explaining it.

[roadrunner]

Not one of you have given an adequate explanation of how you would have stopped the Civil War of 1994 in Afghanistan.

[tor_khan]

I suspect that many Muslim Panjabees don't actually respect themselves as Panjabees. See with Pashtoons in Pashtunkhwa there is a recognition amongst the Pashto literate that language and literacy in Pashto is one of the keys to self-realisation. Even with their lower levels of literacy, essentially Pashtoons = Pashto. We are recognised by our language.

But even lower-middle-class Panjabees seem ambivalent to Panjabee in a way that I don't fully understand. If Pashtoons have been lax, it is fair to say that urban Panjabees have done even less for the development and promotion of their language (in original Gurmukhi script), for reasons that I've never been able to establish beyond resentment at anything that might vaguely suggest a recent Hindu past. I still find that odd considering that overall, Panjabees tend to go easier on religious interpretation than other ethnic groups in Pakistan. However, in having displaced their own language, some of the biggest pushers of Urdu as a "unifying" "Muslim" language are the Panjabees themselves. That too, knowing that Urdu isn't native to them either. Surely the Panjabees have more going for them culturally-speaking than to hang on to some artificial construct that they have created for themselves in order to make themselves feel good?

[Toramana]

Amin Khan, thanks ... I woul've joined but the discussion is almost over...and this da zra da zoor nisthwalai as BLS said that day....manana wrora

[Bengal_Tiger]

True to form Trollrunner, was unable to respond to any of the points which I mentioned. He was the one who brought up Bangladesh, and I have the right to comment when a Punjabi troll who has trolled on many different fora insults my nation.

Leaving Trollrunner aside, apart from the politics I feel that many Afghans dislike Punjabis because of their nature which is sly, arrogant and cruel.

The Punjabis as a race have never done anything (excluding the Sikhs) apart from cause trouble e.g. create Qadianism, kill Turkish soldiers in Mecca etc.



Son of Punjab, liar, false prophet, Punjabi and agent of the British, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian who created a false religion.

This absence of a history of any note, but a innate arrogance stemming from their culture, thus leads to an excessive emphasis on "Pakistan", since these losers have never had anything else in their history.

As for their "language", Punjabi. It is considered coarse and vulgar, and Punjabis being Punjabis true to their arrogant and mocking nature mock rural Punjabis who speak Punjabi as opposed to speaking "Urdu" e.g. in Lahore.

However the "Urdu" spoken in Lahore and elsewhere in Punjab is laughed at by real Urdu speakers e.g. in Karachi and India as a *******ized, mispronounced form of Punjabized Urdu.

Punjabis are a race who have contributed nothing and are hated by virtually all Muslim groups in South Asia e.g. Sindhis, Balochis, Indian Muslims, Afghan Muslims, Bengali Muslims and Pashtuns. Their source of pride is a state and an army created by the British.



First commander of the Pakistani Punjabi dominated army, Frank Messervy.

[roadrunner]

I suspect that many Muslim Panjabees don't actually respect themselves as Panjabees. See with Pashtoons in Pashtunkhwa there is a recognition amongst the Pashto literate that language and literacy in Pashto is one of the keys to self-realisation. Even with their lower levels of literacy, essentially Pashtoons = Pashto. We are recognised by our language.

But even lower-middle-class Panjabees seem ambivalent to Panjabee in a way that I don't fully understand. If Pashtoons have been lax, it is fair to say that urban Panjabees have done even less for the development and promotion of their language (in original Gurmukhi script), for reasons that I've never been able to establish beyond resentment at anything that might vaguely suggest a recent Hindu past. I still find that odd considering that overall, Panjabees tend to go easier on religious interpretation than other ethnic groups in Pakistan. However, in having displaced their own language, some of the biggest pushers of Urdu as a "unifying" "Muslim" language are the Panjabees themselves. That too, knowing that Urdu isn't native to them either. Surely the Panjabees have more going for them culturally-speaking than to hang on to some artificial construct that they have created for themselves in order to make themselves feel good?

You think that's how Pashtuns are recognized more like.

I recognize Pashtuns in an entirely different way. Anyone can learn Pashto.

Punjabis actually have quite a good history also. They too have been brainwashed like the Pashtuns into forgetting their traditions.

Anyhow, perhaps you can answer the question of what you would have done in 1994 to stop the massacres in Afghanistan? (since noone else wants to answer it).

[Admin Khan]

Greetings Roadrunner,

I hope you are in good health.

This is my reply to this. I did answer it before.

Do you mind showing me your answer to it?

Do you support the Taliban? Yes or No?

What would your answer be to the Civil War in Afghanistan from 1992-1996? How would you have solved it?

Educating the youth, and enlightening them about human rights. Whatever is the case, I wouldn't do what Pakistan did. The thread is about Pakistan, and what Pakistan did was unacceptable. It supported and funded a movement for it's strategic purposes.

I do think a stable Afghanistan is in Pakistan's interest.

No. A stable Afghanistan that serves Pakistani interests is in her interest. There is a reason why Pakistan begins to pull it's hair every time Manmohan Singh plans to visit Kabul.

I do feel you're incorrect in saying that it isn't in Pakistan's interest to have a stable Afghanistan though.

Let's try it again. If Pakistan wants a stable Afghanistan, it should refrain from meddling in Afghanistan's affair with it's strategic depth nonsense.

The Taliban are not a good form of governance and very few people would want to live under them. If I were in a country that was tearing itself apart through warfare, and someone came along that I could go to in order to get some justice, then it would be an improvement on no justice.

Awesome. Now the reason why most Afghans hate Pakistani officials is because they supported and funded the Taliban. Does it make sense to you now?

Pakistan sees Afghanistan as competition I think. But it wouldn't want it to be unstable. That would cause problems for Pakistan.

Afghanistan as competition? I beg to differ. I don't even think I have to elaborate.

This is one area I don't get about Pashtun Nationalists. The introduction of religion into the region was not even at the behest of the Pakistanis. The Pakistani government had many Pashtuns in it. They knew the Afghans would fight the Soviets. The introduction of this extreme form of Islam came about in order to secure funds from the Saudis for their support. There's a whole host of countries that supported this extreme religion entering the Af-Pak belt. But you're only fingering one country.

Logical fallacy? Let's look at my posts in the context of your thread. You made a thread about Pakistan, and I am telling you why most Afghans hate Pakistani officials. This thread isn't about why UAE recognized the Taliban. We can save that for another day. Pakistan supported and funded a movement that made Afghanistan on the verge of becoming the first stone-age nation. The aforementioned is exactly why most Afghans hate Pakistani officials. It's the foreign policy.

How can you use talents in Computer Science, Mathematics and other disciplines if you have a Civil War occurring?

When I made that comment, I was speaking in contemporary terms. As we speak, according to various sources, Pakistan is funding the Taliban. That is unacceptable to the Pashtun/Afghan people. As we speak, Pashtuns are victims of exoneration, that is also unacceptable. Rather then permitting foreign forces to attack the Pashtuns with drones, allow them to attain a higher education.

How do you solve the Civil War in Afghanistan?

Negotiation. Listening to each others causes. Educating the youth.

When you solve the Civil War, and bring stability, you can then build these universities.

Sure, but by funding and supporting a frankenstein that Pakistan itself didn't want for its own people, you are decreasing the probability of ever building universities.

I don't agree madrassas are alright. There's too much religion in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It needs to go.

With all due respect, that's pretty ignorant of you. Madrassas are not the problem. Religion is not the problem. I feel like I am repeating myself now, please refer to my previous posts. I elaborated on this.

Pakistan took advantage of the Afghans to fight the Soviets. The Afghans took advantage of Pakistan's strategic depth. Both rubbed each others backs. Both got burned by the creation of madrassas.

You think Afghans somehow benefited by Pakistan's strategic depth? How so? By being ruled by the Pakistani funded/supported Taliban?


You asked why many Afghans/Pashtuns hate Pakistan. The answer was given to you, but let me reiterate. The reason is because Pakistan supports and funds instability in Afghanistan. Pakistan funded a movement and a type of Sharia-law that she herself doesn't want in her nation. If Pakistan thinks the Taliban is the best form of government, she can test it and prove it to us first. She doesn't need to shove it down the throat of Afghans, nor does she have to brainwash innocent Pashtuns to legitimize and justify the movement.

[khushal]

Its not just afghans that hate pakistani officials and its policies, but its every one of pakistans neighbors, and now that hate is spreading to its own citizens.