Pakistan

[roadrunner]

This is what I see.

Pakistan and Afghanistan have been adversaries from day 1. Both sides were supporting resistances against their adversaries governments. From this environment, Afghanistan was forced to rely on the Soviet Union and Pakistan(adversary of India as well) was forced to rely on the US, China, and Saudi Arabia. It was pretty much of a stalemate until Saudi Arabia and Pakistan convinced the Afghan Leadership to leave alone the Pashtunistan issue and diversify its economic partners.
The diversification of its economic partners made the Soviets nervous which led them to support a coup against Daud. At the same time the US got involved into supporting the Pakistani backed Majahadeen intentionally increasing the chance of a Soviet invasion. When the Soviets invaded, then all the support of the free world was behind the Pakistani backed majahadeen.
Pakistan saw an opportunity to sanitize its western border from any future threat from Afghanistan by destroying Afghanistan and have it completely depend on Pakistan. Pakistan is continuing its policy of creating an Afghanistan which depends on it, but I believe these policies are a disservice to its own interests and ultimately will result in its own destabilization.

.. and back in the real world now.

[roadrunner]

The Durand Line does irk me a bit, and Pashtuns have a legitimate concern regarding the Durand Line's existence.

I would like to see a referendum carried out there under appropriate conditions. But as I said, the Durand Line is not a practical problem.

[roadrunner]

Just look at what they did to Pukhtoons, Bangalis, Balochis, and their beradaar Taliban and Mujahideen in Islam?

The Bangalis? What did they do to them?

It was the Bangalis that backstabbed Pakistan as far as i know. Even when they'd won by fighting shoulder to shoulder with India, they manipulated history and falsified accounts of genocide against them. Explain if you would?

[KhalsaWarrior]

I will hint on something that I have seen amongst Pakistani people, in person, in internet forums and in the media.

Conspiracy theory. An *overwhelming number of Pakistanis seem to revel in it. And more often than not these conspiracy theories seek to prevail the notion that most of the world is against Pakistan (=sole Muslim power in the world) and how every non-Muslim country is trying to sabotage Pakistan's rise. And above all Pakistan or Pakistanis are never to blame for the ills affecting their country. Taliban? Hey that was US and the Afghans problem! Zia and his radical Islamization? Well Zia was propped up by foreign powers! Its as if people are unwilling to believe that their own countrymen could be at fault for anything.

*Caveat - Not all Pakistanis can however be accused of the above crime. There are media people like Paracha and Najam Sethi who talk sense and are practical.

[fzpz]

Your pseudo psycho-analysis is a disservice to reason. To think that (all) people don't blame someone else would be false. You can see these conspiracy theories in all peoples (including these forums). Attributing some narratives as a defining narrative to a people is dishonest. But i gues you can have a caveat* like not all indians support the killings of Kashmiris, like reasonable people like Arundhati Roy, or not all Sikhs have a anti-muslim disposition, like Kushwant Singh.

Quoting Paracha or Sethi is probably not the way to go about making whatever point you were trying to make. They certainly have their opinions, as they have a right to. But similarly to what Roy is thought of as in india, they have the a similar standing. Loved by others (indians, i notice they have a morbid obsession with parachi for his anti-pak musings in addition to his 'scholarship' on islam - he fits in well with new age muslim 'reformers'), they don't make sense (for good reason, as they are going off a false narrative) to the people that actually matter. Remember ones' left is someone else's right.

[KhalsaWarrior]

Your pseudo psycho-analysis is a disservice to reason. To think that (all) people don't blame someone else would be false. You can see these conspiracy theories in all peoples (including these forums). Attributing some narratives as a defining narrative to a people is dishonest. But i gues you can have a caveat* like not all indians support the killings of Kashmiris, like reasonable people like Arundhati Roy, or not all Sikhs have a anti-muslim disposition, like Kushwant Singh.

What I saw in Pakistanis wrt conspiracy theories was overwhelming in terms of pure numbers. And your caveats are ineffective. Scroll back to the first page of this thread and you will find the thread starter blaming foreign powers for propping up Zia and hence to be blamed for Islamic radicalization in Pakistan. This is just one example. How many Indians would you find blaming others for their evils? Talk to an Indian about evils like caste system and they would probably defend it by posting some good points but never blame anybody else. You can take countless such examples.

Quoting Paracha or Sethi is probably not the way to go about making whatever point you were trying to make. They certainly have their opinions, as they have a right to. But similarly to what Roy is thought of as in india, they have the a similar standing. Loved by others (indians, i notice they have a morbid obsession with parachi for his anti-pak musings in addition to his 'scholarship' on islam - he fits in well with new age muslim 'reformers'), they don't make sense (for good reason, as they are going off a false narrative) to the people that actually matter. Remember ones' left is someone else's right

.
I don't know how those two wouldnt make sense as they would do to every practical and realistic person in the world. They back up what they say by logic. On the other hand people like Zaid Hamid ( I hate to bring his name up but it serves a purpose here) spewing hate and unintelligent bravado have mass followings. That person embodies the culture of conspiracy theories and false bravado of Pakistani society.


A bit more of my pseudo psycho-analysis - I think this culture has largely pervaded the Pakistani society because of its distorted view of history, particularly sub-continental history and the need to use it as a justification for Pakistan. One had to paint sub-continental Muslims as the sufferers to justify the creation of Pakistan. And to preserve this idea and the nation, the powers that be chose to fan theories that India is out to gobble us and the whole western world and its CIA-Mossad-RAW axis is behind the evils that affect Pakistan.

[fzpz]

Admin Khan, would you agree that Pakistan policy towards Afghanistan (whatever one may think of strategic depth etc) policy was in response to actions taken by Afghanistan first. Those actions include not recognizing Pakistan, supporting a failed insurgency and movement, providing a base for anti-Pak activities (up to present day), and the continuous conspiracy theories and hearsay. I recognize that conspiracy theories on both sides have a reason for their existence.

Btw, how hard would it have been to say Pakistanis when referring to 'inhabitants of Pakistan'? Remember the majority of an ethnic group called Pakhtuns are Pakistanis. They, just like any other Pakistani, can agree or disagree with the policies or actions of the GOP. And Pakhtuns do agree with some policies of the GOP, while some others don't. Unfortunately, just like Afghanistanis, they can't do jack sheet about it. Their opinions would be no different then any other Pakistani, who all decry the facilitation by Pakistan of the invasion of Afghanistan and the subsequent suffering of Afghanistanis, and increasingly Pakistanis. But we all ask, where is the condemnation of Afghanistanis for their anti-Pak actions?

I would like one thing from you. Could you please provide the outline of an acceptable resolution of issues between Pakistan and Afghanistan? Resolutions need not have a red line. What would the contours of peaceful relations between the states look like? Would a referendum suffice? Or only the literal changing of modern-day borders between the two states (majority pashtuns becoming part of Afghanistan, whatever they may think of such a solution)?

[roadrunner]

I will hint on something that I have seen amongst Pakistani people, in person, in internet forums and in the media.

Conspiracy theory. An *overwhelming number of Pakistanis seem to revel in it. And more often than not these conspiracy theories seek to prevail the notion that most of the world is against Pakistan (=sole Muslim power in the world) and how every non-Muslim country is trying to sabotage Pakistan's rise. And above all Pakistan or Pakistanis are never to blame for the ills affecting their country. Taliban? Hey that was US and the Afghans problem! Zia and his radical Islamization? Well Zia was propped up by foreign powers! Its as if people are unwilling to believe that their own countrymen could be at fault for anything.

*Caveat - Not all Pakistanis can however be accused of the above crime. There are media people like Paracha and Najam Sethi who talk sense and are practical.

Pakistan is India's adversary. India is Pakistan's adversary. Do you deny India and Pakistan compete with each other to try and sabotage each other's rise? If you think India doesn't want to hold Pakistan down, then you're not as smart as these conspiracy theories you ridicule.

General Zia could be a conspiracy as there's no direct proof. The theory is outlined here
http://wondersofpakistan.wordpress.c...e-renewed-i-4/

Third question. What would be the need for unifying a Taliban force if Afghanistan was stable enough to trade with Central Asia?

Failure to answer these questions means you're conspiracy theory assertion is incorrect. Pakistan has many faults for sure. But what you've picked out are Indian conspiracy theories that don't hold much water about Pakistan.

Here's a much better conspiracy theory.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265400

Or is that a incorrect too?

[KhalsaWarrior]

Pakistan is India's adversary. India is Pakistan's adversary. Do you deny India and Pakistan compete with each other to try and sabotage each other's rise? If you think India doesn't want to hold Pakistan down, then you're not as smart as these conspiracy theories you ridicule.

India sure does and vice versa. But I dont see how this is connected. India too has its share of blaming most things on "ISI" or the invisible "foreign hand". But overtime this has subsided. We call the Maoist insurgency as the biggest problem facing us and we agree that its our own internal problem rather than foreign help that helped it grow.

General Zia could be a conspiracy as there's no direct proof. The theory is outlined here
http://wondersofpakistan.wordpress.c...e-renewed-i-4/

Will read this conspiracy theory when I get time.

Third question. What would be the need for unifying a Taliban force if Afghanistan was stable enough to trade with Central Asia?

What are you trying to get at here? That Pakistan tried unifying Taliban as it wanted to trade with Central Asia? Pray tell me more. That could have been one of the reasons for Pakistan's support of the Taliban but not the biggest one.

Failure to answer these questions means you're conspiracy theory assertion is incorrect. Pakistan has many faults for sure. But what you've picked out are Indian conspiracy theories that don't hold much water about Pakistan.

I still hold on to my opinion. I read the following in the signature of a senior Pakistani member at defence.pk - "Pakistanis irrespective of their standing in society indulge and exult in gossip, conspiracies and rumours". That does say a lot, doesn't it?

Here's a much better conspiracy theory.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265400

Or is that a incorrect too?

It is perfectly correct. Hindu terror has been on the rise in the past decade and is a very disturbing sign.

[roadrunner]

What are you trying to get at here? That Pakistan tried unifying Taliban as it wanted to trade with Central Asia? Pray tell me more. That could have been one of the reasons for Pakistan's support of the Taliban but not the biggest one.

It's been explained in the previous pages in one of the long posts. Rather well I might add (by me). Read that.

I still hold on to my opinion. I read the following in the signature of a senior Pakistani member at defence.pk - "Pakistanis irrespective of their standing in society indulge and exult in gossip, conspiracies and rumours". That does say a lot, doesn't it?

Senior members on internet forums are irrelevant on the whole.

[KhalsaWarrior]

It's been explained in the previous pages in one of the long posts. Rather well I might add (by me). Read that.

Ahh. Just read your explanation. Incredibly naive and self-serving I must say.

I would desist from posting on this thread for now. Inevitably, it looks like this going to become an India-Pakistan fight. That wouldn't be in the best interests of this debate. Afghans/Pashtuns of PF would be better served talking about the Durand line or other such issues. Roadrunner, Fzpz please feel free to PM me if you wish to carry on this debate

[fzpz]

edit: will do pm.

[khushal]

I will hint on something that I have seen amongst Pakistani people, in person, in internet forums and in the media.

Conspiracy theory. An *overwhelming number of Pakistanis seem to revel in it. And more often than not these conspiracy theories seek to prevail the notion that most of the world is against Pakistan (=sole Muslim power in the world) and how every non-Muslim country is trying to sabotage Pakistan's rise. And above all Pakistan or Pakistanis are never to blame for the ills affecting their country. Taliban? Hey that was US and the Afghans problem! Zia and his radical Islamization? Well Zia was propped up by foreign powers! Its as if people are unwilling to believe that their own countrymen could be at fault for anything.

*Caveat - Not all Pakistanis can however be accused of the above crime. There are media people like Paracha and Najam Sethi who talk sense and are practical.

I have also noticed this. But I blame this thinking on the Pakistani governments very effective strategy of shifting blame and anger from themselves and deflecting it towards India thereby shielding themselves from their own people overthrowing them and demanding change.

[fzpz]

I have also noticed this. But I blame this thinking on the Pakistani governments very effective strategy of shifting blame and anger from themselves and deflecting it towards India thereby shielding themselves from their own people overthrowing them and demanding change.

The same could be said of Afghanistanis.

[khushal]

The same could be said of Afghanistanis.

Im not following, what do you mean. That afghanistan blames pakistan for everything?