Pakistan

[roadrunner]

If it were only Madeline Albright saying that, I would be skeptical...But almost every other expert of international affair and foreign policy official of countries in the wider world have directly or indirectly expressed such opinion about Pakistan...

So WMD did exist in Iraq them?

Where are they?

Pakistan isn't playing ball with India. It is with China. It is naturally not going to be in anyone's good books except perhaps Chinese ones.

[Toramana]

Taliban are a symptom of Afghanistan. The Afghan-Soviet war, the radicalization, what to do with all those radicals who only knew militancy. Pakistan just stamped the name Taliban onto these individuals.

I wish they'd unbrainwash themselves, but it will take a while. In the meantime, they're too much of a popular movement within Afghanistan to ignore. Reconciliation is the only answer, plus lots of funding for development.

By the way what are Lashkar-i-Toiba, Jiash-i-Mohammad, Huzbul-Mujahideen, Harkatul Mujahideen, Sipah-i-Sahaba, and the myraid of terror groups symptoms of? It is in the ideological foundations of Pakistan my friend...a country which is named "land of the faithful" and that uses and institutionalises jehad/terror as political and a foreign policy instrument cannot but have such degenerative impact on its own population as well as those in the neighbourhood.

But anyhow, carry on your discussion with Admin.

[Admin Khan]

My next point will be Pashtuns. How Pakistan thinks it's okay for us to die. How our blood is cheap as opposed to others. How it's okay to fire drones at our people, innocent people for the most part.

[roadrunner]

I think you are being a bit too lenient here. Pakistan supported and funded them, do you agree?

Agreed.

During 1996-2001, Pakistan was very well aware that Afghanistan is on the verge of becoming the sole stone-age nation in the world. Why didn't Pakistan positively enlighten the men they exerted influence on?

I don't know, but I can guess. Here's what I think though.

When it comes to radicals you can't tell them what to believe. You can only point out something sensible like, believe what you like, but try and unite into a formidable force that may bring stability.

If Afghanistan stabilized, it may have got more prosperous (we'll never know now). That money may have deradicalized the militants because that is what development does.

Would you agree that may have been the long term goal of uniting a powerful militia instead of an ongoing civil war?

Pakistan was an important ally for the Taliban, and you and I both know that Pakistan was capable of influencing these young men. Today, most Afghans hate Pakistan simply because of the way they brainwashed young Afghans.

The brainwashing wasn't necessary. One dumb mistake introducing religion into the region.

But the introduction of religion into the region was not Pakistan's doing. A number of countries were culpable. And would you not agree that the introduction of religion into the region has hurt Pakistanis also? (the Hudood Laws and other illogical laws based on Saudi Law codes).

I blame Afghans first though. So I hope you don't think I am blaming Pakistan for everything that has happened to Afghanistan. The fact is Pakistan supported a regime that pretty much Afghanistan solely dependent on them. That's is exactly what Pakistan wanted, a friendly Afghanistan to help her in her problems.

Would you agree that Pakistan is playing a double game right now? There are many authoratative sources that show Pakistan is supporting the Taliban. Why is that Roadrunner?

Pakistan I think is keeping its options open. When foreign soldiers withdraw, Pakistan doesn't want to have offended its neighbour who might start throwing stones at its windows. If you know what I mean.

Taliban, and Madrassas* for Afghanistan = Wooho!
Taliban, and Madrassas for Pakistan = Naha!

Madrassas*
I am not against Islamic education. If an individual want's to attend a Madrassa, he/she can feel free.

Where did you get this from?

I'm totally against these Madrassas. But most were created in Pakistan. They're a problem in Pakistan. Pakistanis don't realize it so much, but they are a huge problem.

Pakistan's propaganda worked. The uneducated, illiterate Afghans fell for it because all they wanted was peace, even if that meant serving as a tool for Islamabad.

The Afghans needed money and weapons and some bases to fight the Soviets from in Pakistan.

Pakistan let them, but for some stupid reason, they created lots of madrassas. I don't think Pakistan cared about the madrassas, it was foreign influence on the entire region. Pakistan is also a victim of them though I think.

[roadrunner]

By the way what are Lashkar-i-Toiba, Jiash-i-Mohammad, Huzbul-Mujahideen, Harkatul Mujahideen, Sipah-i-Sahaba, and the myraid of terror groups symptoms of? It is in the ideological foundations of Pakistan my friend...a country which is named "land of the faithful" and that uses and institutionalises jehad/terror as political and a foreign policy instrument cannot but have such degenerative impact on its own population as well as those in the neighbourhood.

But anyhow, carry on your discussion with Admin.

You don't know where they're from?

Radicalization by these madrassas during the Afghan-Soviet war caused many religious nutcases to get churned out. Instead of having them run loose in Pakistan, the GoP decided to "put them to use" in fighting for Kashmir.

These sorts of people were not present until the 1980s.

As for Kashmir, violence won't solve the dispute, and India is legally the country at fault there.

[roadrunner]

My next point will be Pashtuns. How Pakistan thinks it's okay for us to die. How our blood is cheap as opposed to others. How it's okay to fire drones at our people, innocent people for the most part.

That's a very fair point.

The drones are illegal, and a war crime. Drones would not be fired anywhere in the west where there's civilians. They shouldn't be fired into Pakistan so cheaply.

If the Pakistani government are involved in it, then they too are just as despicable (though they deny it).

[Admin Khan]

Agreed.

Awesome.

When it comes to radicals you can't tell them what to believe. You can only point out something sensible like, believe what you like, but try and unite into a formidable force that may bring stability.

When you support them, you are legitimizing their cause. When you consistently fund them, you stand behind them for their cause. That is where the Pakistani state becomes a hypocrite. It knows very well that it does not want the same government it's funding and supporting across the Durrand. Pakistan knew that by supporting a nation that barely has telecommunication access, it will have a Islamabad friendly, and Islamabad dependent Afghanistan. That is exactly what we witnessed.


You still didn't answer my question, I shall pose them again:

• Do you support the Taliban?
• What do you think of Pakistan supporting the Taliban? If the Taliban are our saviors, how about Pakistan proves it to Afghans first?

If Afghanistan stabilized, it may have got more prosperous (we'll never know now). That money may have deradicalized the militants because that is what development does.

That's not the question though. The question here is does Pakistan want a stabilized Afghanistan? RoadRunner, all Afghans want is for Pakistani officials to leave their foreign affairs alone. You don't hear of Afghan officials wanting to decide the fate of Pakistans future, do you? If yes, enlighten me. Pakistan wants a friendly Afghanistan, and it's doing all it can to depict it's future.

The brainwashing wasn't necessary. One dumb mistake introducing religion into the region.

I wouldn't blame Islam. I will blame Pakistan for supporting this extreme intrepretation of Islam. An intrepretation where even a cell phone with a camera became haram, because somehow the Pukhtuns might send nude photos to their counterparts. To say the least, that was the problem. We can not blame Islam for this at all. I'm sure you know that. Pakistan took advantage of the naive, illiterate, and uneducated Afghans, and in result, they served as her tool. At the end, it's the Pashtuns who suffered.

But the introduction of religion into the region was not Pakistan's doing. A number of countries were culpable. And would you not agree that the introduction of religion into the region has hurt Pakistanis also? (the Hudood Laws and other illogical laws based on Saudi Law codes).

Absolutely, the Pashtun belt is on fire right now. Once again, let's not blame religion for this. Let's blame brainwashing, and making nonsense justifiable with special hadiths. Such as the Hadith Sangar uses to call other Muslims who don't agree with him as non-Muslims, Singhs, and Kaffirs.

Pakistan I think is keeping its options open. When foreign soldiers withdraw, Pakistan doesn't want to have offended its neighbour who might start throwing stones at its windows. If you know what I mean.

It's a bit too late for that, Col Imam's death sort of showed us that, didn't it? The Pashtuns are fed up, we don't want to be a synonym for violence.

Where did you get this from?

It's an open secret. Ask anyone in Kandahar Province.
BBC News - Pakistani agents 'funding and training Afghan Taliban'

So as you can see, Pakistan still supports the stone-age Afghanistan. Why is that Roadrunner? Don't you think we Pashtuns can also use our talent in Computer Science, Mathematics and various other disciplines as well?

I'm totally against these Madrassas. But most were created in Pakistan. They're a problem in Pakistan. Pakistanis don't realize it so much, but they are a huge problem.

There is nothing wrong with a Madrassa. A madrassa is like a knife. A knife can be used to cut your vegetables, and it can be used to kill someone. Blaming the knife would be a fallacy, I'm sure as a thinktank you agree.

The Afghans needed money and weapons and some bases to fight the Soviets from in Pakistan.

And Pakistan took advantage of their "Islamic brothers". There is a reason why I said I blame Afghans first and foremost. I'm not going to sit here and blame your people for the root cause of everything. That's not my style, as I'm sure you know by now.

Pakistan let them, but for some stupid reason, they created lots of madrassas. I don't think Pakistan cared about the madrassas, it was foreign influence on the entire region. Pakistan is also a victim of them though I think.

Pakistani government made billions out of this so car "War on terror". It's the locals of both sides that suffer. So yes, both Afghan citizens and Pakistani citizen suffered, while the Afghan and Pakistani government officials are banking $.

[Admin Khan]

That's a very fair point.

The drones are illegal, and a war crime. Drones would not be fired anywhere in the west where there's civilians. They shouldn't be fired into Pakistan so cheaply.

If the Pakistani government are involved in it, then they too are just as despicable (though they deny it).

Thank you for being honest with your assessment. I appreciate it. I am glad you have noticed, and realized how cheap our blood is. I hope you can join your brethren in criticizing the Pakistani government for permitting this act of terror against the Pashtun people.

[Admin Khan]

By the way what are Lashkar-i-Toiba, Jiash-i-Mohammad, Huzbul-Mujahideen, Harkatul Mujahideen, Sipah-i-Sahaba, and the myraid of terror groups symptoms of? It is in the ideological foundations of Pakistan my friend...a country which is named "land of the faithful" and that uses and institutionalises jehad/terror as political and a foreign policy instrument cannot but have such degenerative impact on its own population as well as those in the neighbourhood.

But anyhow, carry on your discussion with Admin.

Don't be shy Toramana. You can join us as well.

[roadrunner]

Thank you for being honest with your assessment. I appreciate it. I am glad you have noticed, and realized how cheap our blood is. I hope you can join your brethren in criticizing the Pakistani government for permitting this act of terror against the Pashtun people.

This isn't a black and white issue here.

Many Pashtuns (actually most Pashtuns) live in Pakistan and are Pakistani nationals. I do not subscribe to this view you're Pashtun or Pakistani. Pakistan is a nationality, Pashtun is an ethnic group.

Anyway, back to the black and white issue. People can be against the drone strikes and regularly criticize them, and even be pro-American for example (I am anti-war btw). They can be against the drone strikes vocally and be anti-American. Being against the drone strikes tells very little about a person's other views, just that they recognize that it is unjust.

[Admin Khan]

This isn't a black and white issue here.

Many Pashtuns (actually most Pashtuns) live in Pakistan and are Pakistani nationals. I do not subscribe to this view you're Pashtun or Pakistani. Pakistan is a nationality, Pashtun is an ethnic group.

Anyway, back to the black and white issue. People can be against the drone strikes and regularly criticize them, and even be pro-American for example (I am anti-war btw). They can be against the drone strikes vocally and be anti-American. Being against the drone strikes tells very little about a person's other views, just that they recognize that it is unjust.

I think you should read what I said again, please. What I said was very simple, and elementary. I said you should join your people in criticizing Pakistan for allowing Drone strikes. Hypothetically speaking, I can be Pro-Israeli, and yet criticize some of the Israeli policies. I think what you are saying is in general terms, since I never claimed Pakistan was an ethnic group.

[roadrunner]

When you support them, you are legitimizing their cause. When you consistently fund them, you stand behind them for their cause. That is where the Pakistani state becomes a hypocrite. It knows very well that it does not want the same government it's funding and supporting across the Durrand. Pakistan knew that by supporting a nation that barely has telecommunication access, it will have a Islamabad friendly, and Islamabad dependent Afghanistan. That is exactly what we witnessed.

This is my reply to this. I did answer it before.

What would your answer be to the Civil War in Afghanistan from 1992-1996? How would you have solved it?

If you and a friend go on a sea voyage in his wooden boat and it springs a leak, what do you do if both of you have nothing? He rows. You stick lots of chewing gum over the leak for example and it wrecks the woodwork. It gets you home. If you did nothing you both sink.

I do think a stable Afghanistan is in Pakistan's interest. The unification of the Taliban was said to be to aid caravan convoys going from Pakistan to central asia. So it does want stability i think. Though economically there would be some rivalry I think. I do feel you're incorrect in saying that it isn't in Pakistan's interest to have a stable Afghanistan though.

You still didn't answer my question, I shall pose them again:

• Do you support the Taliban?
• What do you think of Pakistan supporting the Taliban? If the Taliban are our saviors, how about Pakistan proves it to Afghans first?

The Taliban are not a good form of governance and very few people would want to live under them. If I were in a country that was tearing itself apart through warfare, and someone came along that I could go to in order to get some justice, then it would be an improvement on no justice.

That's not the question though. The question here is does Pakistan want a stabilized Afghanistan? RoadRunner, all Afghans want is for Pakistani officials to leave their foreign affairs alone. You don't hear of Afghan officials wanting to decide the fate of Pakistans future, do you? If yes, enlighten me. Pakistan wants a friendly Afghanistan, and it's doing all it can to depict it's future.

Pakistan sees Afghanistan as competition I think. But it wouldn't want it to be unstable. That would cause problems for Pakistan.

I wouldn't blame Islam. I will blame Pakistan for supporting this extreme intrepretation of Islam. An intrepretation where even a cell phone with a camera became haram, because somehow the Pukhtuns might send nude photos to their counterparts. To say the least, that was the problem. We can not blame Islam for this at all. I'm sure you know that. Pakistan took advantage of the naive, illiterate, and uneducated Afghans, and in result, they served as her tool. At the end, it's the Pashtuns who suffered.

This is one area I don't get about Pashtun Nationalists. The introduction of religion into the region was not even at the behest of the Pakistanis. The Pakistani government had many Pashtuns in it. They knew the Afghans would fight the Soviets. The introduction of this extreme form of Islam came about in order to secure funds from the Saudis for their support. There's a whole host of countries that supported this extreme religion entering the Af-Pak belt. But you're only fingering one country.

Absolutely, the Pashtun belt is on fire right now. Once again, let's not blame religion for this. Let's blame brainwashing, and making nonsense justifiable with special hadiths. Such as the Hadith Sangar uses to call other Muslims who don't agree with him as non-Muslims, Singhs, and Kaffirs.

What I meant (and I think you know) is that this extreme form of religion has all taken root in the Punjab and Sindh. It's a problem for Pakistan (=Punjab by your definition?)

It's a bit too late for that, Col Imam's death sort of showed us that, didn't it? The Pashtuns are fed up, we don't want to be a synonym for violence.

I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me if Pakistan are playing a double game/balancing act. When NATO leaves, Pakistan remains. So it's not in their interests to be on poor terms with the powerholders in Afghanistan.

It's an open secret. Ask anyone in Kandahar Province.
BBC News - Pakistani agents 'funding and training Afghan Taliban'

So as you can see, Pakistan still supports the stone-age Afghanistan. Why is that Roadrunner? Don't you think we Pashtuns can also use our talent in Computer Science, Mathematics and various other disciplines as well?

How can you use talents in Computer Science, Mathematics and other disciplines if you have a Civil War occurring? How do you solve the Civil War in Afghanistan?

When you solve the Civil War, and bring stability, you can then build these universities.

There is nothing wrong with a Madrassa. A madrassa is like a knife. A knife can be used to cut your vegetables, and it can be used to kill someone. Blaming the knife would be a fallacy, I'm sure as a thinktank you agree.


And Pakistan took advantage of their "Islamic brothers". There is a reason why I said I blame Afghans first and foremost. I'm not going to sit here and blame your people for the root cause of everything. That's not my style, as I'm sure you know by now.


Pakistani government made billions out of this so car "War on terror". It's the locals of both sides that suffer. So yes, both Afghan citizens and Pakistani citizen suffered, while the Afghan and Pakistani government officials are banking $.

I don't agree madrassas are alright. There's too much religion in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It needs to go.

Pakistan took advantage of the Afghans to fight the Soviets. The Afghans took advantage of Pakistan's strategic depth. Both rubbed each others backs. Both got burned by the creation of madrassas.

[roadrunner]

I think you should read what I said again, please. What I said was very simple, and elementary. I said you should join your people in criticizing Pakistan for allowing Drone strikes. Hypothetically speaking, I can be Pro-Israeli, and yet criticize some of the Israeli policies. I think what you are saying is in general terms, since I never claimed Pakistan was an ethnic group.

Certainly. I regularly criticize drone strikes. I've always been anti-drone strikes.

[roadrunner]

The replies are getting a bit long.

This is the question I'm interested in.

"How can you use talents in Computer Science, Mathematics and other disciplines if you have a Civil War occurring? How do you solve the Civil War in Afghanistan?

When you solve the Civil War, and bring stability, you can then build these universities."

How would you have brought stability to Afghanistan in 1994, 1995 when hundreds of thousands of people were being killed for no reasons?

If you can answer this, I'd support Pashtun Nationalism.

[khushal]

This is what I see.

Pakistan and Afghanistan have been adversaries from day 1. Both sides were supporting resistances against their adversaries governments. From this environment, Afghanistan was forced to rely on the Soviet Union and Pakistan(adversary of India as well) was forced to rely on the US, China, and Saudi Arabia. It was pretty much of a stalemate until Saudi Arabia and Pakistan convinced the Afghan Leadership to leave alone the Pashtunistan issue and diversify its economic partners.
The diversification of its economic partners made the Soviets nervous which led them to support a coup against Daud. At the same time the US got involved into supporting the Pakistani backed Majahadeen intentionally increasing the chance of a Soviet invasion. When the Soviets invaded, then all the support of the free world was behind the Pakistani backed majahadeen.
Pakistan saw an opportunity to sanitize its western border from any future threat from Afghanistan by destroying Afghanistan and have it completely depend on Pakistan. Pakistan is continuing its policy of creating an Afghanistan which depends on it, but I believe these policies are a disservice to its own interests and ultimately will result in its own destabilization.