Whats with Atheist pukhtane

[KhyberKhan]

Now as happens with immigrants the greater chances are, within three or at most four generations, your offspring would be Westerners in terms of values and culture.

I don't think so, three generations have already passed in my family living in the west, everyone in my household speaks fluent pashto, has pashtun values, visits KP almost annually and knows the ins and outs of our area.

So if you want to preserve your values and save your offspring from westernization, now is your chance to go back to where you belong. But we know, neither you nor your offspring can go back and re-settle/re-adjust...

In Psychology, there's a phenomenon called Psychological projection.

I hate to tell you, but I think you suffer from it.

so our future generations don't have to immigrate mere for better life and don't have to go through the pain of adapting to another culture or suffer from identity crisis....

Add paranoia to the list as well.

Believe me the West don't need us...India alone can provide all the work-force it needs not to mention China, South America, Afirica, Eastern Europe, without any risk of importation of suicidal tendencies....So, we Muslims are not inevitable for them ...

It is better we let the Muslims here live in peace and grow...Hate talk against local values, systems would aggravate things for us...

When did you become muslim? This is news to me.

Oh i get it, i know how this works. It's like when you were once a testosterone-fueled teenager and you ended up getting into a scrap with another "browny" in your neighbourhood and you end up beating him to a pulp, then he instantly pull the "bruddahh, we muslim, we brothers no fight, me you bruddahh" line. You chameleon-atheists love to jump in and out of Islam when it suits you as though you're playing hop-scotch.

My last piece of advice to you, please read the kalimah to yourself.

Allah is most forgiving.

Peace.

[ScimitarXEdge]

da ukh der khaghalay haywan dai





zemung powanda pa haghwo bande swari

[ScimitarXEdge]

the fallacy in Toramana's argument is that our people aren;t forced to immigrate isnt because there's a lack of rationality; but because of the disturbance of secular capitalist institutions created imposed on our the planet.

[faye]

from what i can gather so far, afghans and other muslims who came to australia as camel drivers, early days, had more freedom than the native population. they were able to start businesses and built mosques.
the colonisers became rich through the theft of land and resouces from the countries that are still now, poor. they have forced the world to aim for the same capitalistic endevours, by one tactic or another. they are now recolonising these same poor countries by sending in the vampiric multinationals or by invasion. most of this is done by the white supremisist members of governance in most western countries and without the set up excuses designed by 'the powers that be' governments within governments, the majority of western people would not be concerned with invasions of other lands.
fortunately now, the designs and deviousness of these manipulators is being exposed and the people of the west are learning who is really running their countries.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Well its actually a funny argument they make regarding Western Muslims. Here is why: Its like they are kicking themselves in the gonads.

So lets go with their premise that Western explants are somehow misinformed or incorrect about the real situation on the ground. OK. So now, they came to the West as well right (Toramana/Osho)? Or they were already here (Baygham).

They are arguing on generally 4 different veins of thought:

Toramana: He is an ideologue who is trying to put the soldiers in line, but instead they look like the three stooges. This is exactly why he silenced Osho. He is attempting to portray an alternate nonexistant history where Pashtunistan was a place where Ahmad Shah Durrani gave press conferences and had tea with women (as if he was Ahmad Barak Obama Durrani). In this Pashtunistan, there was Brad Hotak Pitt and Angelina Jolie Achekzai running off together and no one said a word... because it was a secularist Pashtun society. Notice how upset Toramana gets when Baygham and Osho break ranks.

Baygham: He is a ball of fire, this one. He is all emotion and all confused. However, he does provide a key bit of information. He admits (and its in writing here in case he attempts to deny it in order to fix the gap in the narrative) that the overwhelming majority of Pashtuns have a religious component and raves and raves about how the vocal minority (he has admitted this part too) is present in the dark shadows of Pashtunkhwa. Toramana quickly attempts to smooth over this credibility and reality gap, but has been unable to do so.

Osho: I have not figured him out yet, but he speaks in generalities. I dont know whether this is to encourage an online Doha debate or whether because he really believes this stuff. The good news is that he also breaks ranks and has admitted that Toramana's virtual reality is nonexistant. He has admitted so much and encouraged enforcing a foreign ideology onto the Pashtuns. He has not flinched when advocating violence per an outside military in order to accomplish this goal.

Khyaal: Just your typical run of the mill ass clown that is about as useful as an old diabetic's genitals. Everyone is a Paki in his world where he psychological splits all who agree with him into one category and all others into this Paki category (yet the irony of this is that his strongest supporters here are really Pakistani by nationality. That is the sad thing about this last group is that the overwhelming majority of them carry Pakistani passports at this point in their lives.) This is why Toramana and Baygham quiet up so quickly and dare not fire this charge of "paki" at anyone else because it just sticks right to their foreheads like the mark of the beast.

Now for the rub: So their argument is that Western Muslims are ideologues (which it appears they are that per above) and that they are living in shariah lalalaland. Yet, despite their predicament of also living in the West (in Baygham's case being raised here), they are justified in saying their ideology must be hoisted onto Pashtuns. (*Toramana saw this coming but was not quick enough to forge a common narrative with the other 2 stooges).

The hilarity of this rests in these two points:

A. This distills down to: "Well my idea is better because I say so and therefore it must be the one that gets put on people by force.... Sure I lack evidence and 2/3 of us have admitted this does not fit the Pashtun narrative and we all contradict eachother"... but just ignore the "man behind the curtain." For latter reference see the Wizard of Oz.

B. What do they say to Mullah Omar who has never stepped off the land to go anywhere (even Kabul but once) when he tells them that they are "too westernized to make a valid judgement of the matter" looooool.

So from now on each time they kick themselves in the nuts, just repost this to them. It should work wonders... maybe it'll be like mental viagra for them.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The other great thing that just about knocks them out of the water is that these guys are all from the NWFP proper. A few of them have visited the FATA territories and quickly exited.. a few of them claim to have stepped for a brief second across the Khybar Pass... yet they somehow utilize the "You are the in the west argument" to advocate for what they think is best for Afghanistan proper despite the fact that at most, they drove on a road to kabul.

So dont worry, everyone here sees how idiotic they look when they fire the mental scud missile at themselves.

The funniest part of it all is that the Arab Afghans then, by their definition, have spent greater than the span of some of their lives in Afghanistan proper. So by their logic, Osama Bin Ladin knows best what Afghans need.

See how foolish they are.

I generally avoided addressing the issue because it is so profoundly illogical that I could barely keep from laughing while attempting to respond.

[IamDZJ]

at least they are being honest about it. if you don't believe in something, you don't believe in it. at least they are giving us a chance to convince them by not lying to us about it. there are so many "muslims" who simply go against the teachings of islam by committing horrible crimes just so they can be viewed as devoted muslims by others and most of us value them a lot more than those who choose to respect us by being truthful about their believes and what they stand for.
i have lots of respect for people who are not afraid of questioning religion. it's a lot better than following a bunch of idiots like a blind moron. and don't worry, such individuals couldn't care less for what others think they do or do not belong to or represent.

[Sheenka]

all of u ready for fight

Tol pa masha nast ast

*random comment * lol

[Baygham]

Well its actually a funny argument they make regarding Western Muslims. Here is why: Its like they are kicking themselves in the gonads.

So lets go with their premise that Western explants are somehow misinformed or incorrect about the real situation on the ground. OK. So now, they came to the West as well right (Toramana/Osho)? Or they were already here (Baygham).

They are arguing on generally 4 different veins of thought:

Toramana: He is an ideologue who is trying to put the soldiers in line, but instead they look like the three stooges. This is exactly why he silenced Osho. He is attempting to portray an alternate nonexistant history where Pashtunistan was a place where Ahmad Shah Durrani gave press conferences and had tea with women (as if he was Ahmad Barak Obama Durrani). In this Pashtunistan, there was Brad Hotak Pitt and Angelina Jolie Achekzai running off together and no one said a word... because it was a secularist Pashtun society. Notice how upset Toramana gets when Baygham and Osho break ranks.

Baygham: He is a ball of fire, this one. He is all emotion and all confused. However, he does provide a key bit of information. He admits (and its in writing here in case he attempts to deny it in order to fix the gap in the narrative) that the overwhelming majority of Pashtuns have a religious component and raves and raves about how the vocal minority (he has admitted this part too) is present in the dark shadows of Pashtunkhwa. Toramana quickly attempts to smooth over this credibility and reality gap, but has been unable to do so.

Osho: I have not figured him out yet, but he speaks in generalities. I dont know whether this is to encourage an online Doha debate or whether because he really believes this stuff. The good news is that he also breaks ranks and has admitted that Toramana's virtual reality is nonexistant. He has admitted so much and encouraged enforcing a foreign ideology onto the Pashtuns. He has not flinched when advocating violence per an outside military in order to accomplish this goal.

Khyaal: Just your typical run of the mill ass clown that is about as useful as an old diabetic's genitals. Everyone is a Paki (yet the irony of this is that his strongest supporters here are really Pakistani by nationality. That is the sad thing about this last group is that the overwhelming majority of them carry Pakistani passports at this point in their lives.

Now for the rub: So their argument is that Western Muslims are ideologues (which it appears they are that per above) and that they are living in shariah lalalaland. Yet, despite their predicament of also living in the West (in Baygham's case being raised here), they are justified in saying their ideology must be hoisted onto Pashtuns. (*Toramana saw this coming but was not quick enough to forge a common narrative with the other 2 stooges).

The hilarity of this rests in these two points:

A. This distills down to: "Well my idea is better because I say so and therefore it must be the one that gets put on people by force.... Sure I lack evidence and 2/3 of us have admitted this does not fit the Pashtun narrative and we all contradict eachother"... but just ignore the "man behind the curtain." For latter reference see the Wizard of Oz.

B. What do they say to Mullah Omar who has never stepped off the land to go anywhere (even Kabul but once) when he tells them that they are "too westernized to make a valid judgement of the matter" looooool.

So from now on each time they kick themselves in the nuts, just repost this to them. It should work wonders... maybe it'll be like mental viagra for them.

though I have ABCD(american born confused desi's) as relatives, I was not fortunate to spend all of my life in western comforts. Parents still live in village in KP, by choice.
Growing up in KP though not fun, did prevent scars from being treated as second class citizens and being raised by struggling immigrant parents, caught between reality of economic hardships and a fantasy called home, far away, where one day they would return in triumph. They linger on to what ever bonds they have, sent money back, wish for children to follow their outdated worldview, marry the children or themselves back home. If they came married, they wish the children to go home and get someone. Installing in the children a dual world view, one of outside reality, american high schools, usually public or if dad a new rich doctor than a catholic private school. Some are even trying islamic schools, now run by wahabis in many cities. In the end either the children get western education and become successful professional and become as american as any, or stay mixed up in a dual world of their parents creation. This later is the majority type, hence the commonly accepted pseudonym, American Born Confused Desi (ABCD). Hindu indians also suffer a similar syndrome though recent changes in their culture has made them less affected. The biggest reason for of the ABCDs maintainence of this state of mind - the parents, who still wish to be home of their birth than where they are. Thus the observation that those with dead parents (before its too late) usually become more assimilated in local culture.

The AF/Pak ABCDs are predominantly islamic for that is the language at home, most are actually not following the sect of their forefathers but the prevailing wahabi doctrine popular and well funded in these circles. creating an identity quite unique to the diaspora. A wahabi influenced ABCD, carrying the family wishes to return one day to this glorified home of their dreams. Most have no connection to influence back home, except over other family members who glorify them and play all sorts of tricks to continue foreign remittances.

Such a group doesnot exist at home in watan. There, most of the youth are direction less and if educated, highly weary of religious type. Those in the middle age are cranky. The youth want to run away, to a madrassa, to new york, to dubai, to karachi, to anywhere but where they are. Even in this state, they are much more tolerant of diversity than any of the wahabi influenced ABCDs I have met over the years. My views are the same they were when I was in watan, they were widely known amongst friends and not one took it as a threat.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

though I have ABCD(american born confused desi's) as relatives, I was not fortunate to spend all of my life in western comforts. Parents still live in village in KP, by choice.
Growing up in KP though not fun, did prevent scars from being treated as second class citizens and being raised by struggling immigrant parents, caught between reality of economic hardships and a fantasy called home, far away, where one day they would return in triumph. They linger on to what ever bonds they have, sent money back, wish for children to follow their outdated worldview, marry the children or themselves back home. If they came married, they wish the children to go home and get someone. Installing in the children a dual world view, one of outside reality, american high schools, usually public or if dad a new rich doctor than a catholic private school. Some are even trying islamic schools, now run by wahabis in many cities. In the end either the children get western education and become successful professional and become as american as any, or stay mixed up in a dual world of their parents creation. This later is the majority type, hence the commonly accepted pseudonym, American Born Confused Desi (ABCD). Hindu indians also suffer a similar syndrome though recent changes in their culture has made them less affected. The biggest reason for of the ABCDs maintainence of this state of mind - the parents, who still wish to be home of their birth than where they are. Thus the observation that those with dead parents (before its too late) usually become more assimilated in local culture.

The AF/Pak ABCDs are predominantly islamic for that is the language at home, most are actually not following the sect of their forefathers but the prevailing wahabi doctrine popular and well funded in these circles. creating an identity quite unique to the diaspora. A wahabi influenced ABCD, carrying the family wishes to return one day to this glorified home of their dreams. Most have no connection to influence back home, except over other family members who glorify them and play all sorts of tricks to continue foreign remittances.

Such a group doesnot exist at home in watan. There, most of the youth are direction less and if educated, highly weary of religious type. Those in the middle age are cranky. The youth want to run away, to a madrassa, to new york, to dubai, to karachi, to anywhere but where they are. Even in this state, they are much more tolerant of diversity than any of the wahabi influenced ABCDs I have met over the years. My views are the same they were when I was in watan, they were widely known amongst friends and not one took it as a threat.

Afghans aren't desis. You are correct in terms of the Saudis funding a number of activities and influencing many many folks in the direction of their vantage point. I find the Sheikh Bin Baaz contribution to American Islam utterly loathsome. I myself am troubled by the Kingdom's reach in to these matters. You are also correct about the issues between the Hanbali madhab and the Hanafi madhab.

However, you are, as usual painting everyone with one big brush stroke because of your own life experiences.

In the south, my nearest mosque was some 50 miles away. I rarely went, except for an eid prayer or two. I was more often around the Baptists I grew up with and actually was raised by a father who gave me access to multiple religious texts from the Zend Avesta to the Talmud to the Old Testament. Half of my speaking capabilities derived from being allowed to go see a baptist minister give a Sunday fire and brimstone sermon to learn what their faith was all about. I've been mentored by prominent jewish physicians and have no qualm whatsoever with them.

What is utterly dismaying about you is how you take that sadness in your own life and instead of using sublimation, you urge an iron neck yolk, death, and destruction and completely dismiss the human response of your own people to occupation.

Once again the logic or your argument collapses in on itself. If, in the "wataan" they are as you say, then you should find them to be more genuine, and their radicalism should invite you to come to a logical conclusion and to see what causes it versus this assinine theory of Arabs hiding under every rock. After all, it is not unknownprince or Graveyard sitting there in Nuristan or in Kandahar with their rifles and armed with their "wahaabi gospel." It is the young boys Refsdahl filmed... it is the bare foot Afghan. It is Commander Dauran and his men who were but local men with land and holdings and who now fight not because any ABCD tell them to.

That radicalism, those spates of bombings, those crazy acts if insanity that you are so prone to malign ought to make you question whether the presence of a group of foreigners with a completely dissimilar religious tradition, with shoot on sight orders, and with an occupation mentality is what tips such lost youth over into the "free radical" state.

[Toramana]

I don't think so, three generations have already passed in my family living in the west, everyone in my household speaks fluent pashto, has pashtun values, visits KP almost annually and knows the ins and outs of our area.

Congratulations! You seem to be the lone Pashtun not to be influenced by the Western system and still practicing "traditional Pashtun values" (shuttle-cock). But that is not the case in general...neither we were talking particularly about you...The problem is, the meganomalia chaining your mind places you at the center of every point that you make e.g. the Queen of England sent a special chartered plane for you while others came as asylum seekers hanging by a truck...

Rest, be assured...the wror jan you are talking to is rational enough to know which set of choices will help him live the life of a normal human being free of psychological complexis and insecurities ...

[Roshina]

Yeah, well they exist, always have, and always will. What are you gonna do about it, kill them? Good luck doing that. You can kill people, but you can't kill ideas. Those ideas will always be there.

Now, beloved brother, just because your parents and other dear elders sheltered you so much that they denied you exposure to people who are different from you, including those who completely reject your religious doctrines, albeit for very good reasons, doesn't even slightly mean that those people don't exist. Meaning, just because you don't know or have never met or come across Pukhtuns who are not Muslims doesn't mean they don't exist or don't matter. Even if they're less than 2% of the entire population, they matter -- as much as you and I and the rest of us matter.

And so what that they're a minority? So what that they will never be able to "convert" the rest of the Pukhtun race to their way of life or to their beliefs? Honestly, I think the more you try to prevent them from expressing themselves, be it their religious beliefs, and the more you deny that they exist and are as much Pukhtun as YOU are, the more strength you give them to fight for their existence and for their right to be, their right to believe or disbelieve.

Oh, and ... dude, just because YOU think that "Pukhtaney" = Muslim doesn't mean that's how it really is or that's how it should be. Besides, that always raises the question: What does it mean to be a Muslim, and what constitutes Muslimhood? If you look around here on this forum alone, there are so many religious differences among the Muslims, even among those who claim to be "just" following God and His Prophet, and almost all of them go around telling each other they're not Muslim or are not equally guided! One can only wish that things were as simple as Pukhtun = Muslim.

[faye]

the youth, generally, seem pretty disillusioned and apathetic, everywhere.

[Toramana]

BarakzaiAbdali, you are living in an abstract/utopian world hard of existance or any rational explanation. In this surreal world of your imagination, Islamist piety rules all over and Pashtun emulates the proverbial murd-i-momin model of Islam almost to perfection ...to which someday you would return as an advisor-king to help it assume its God-ordained role of the revival of Ummah...Obviously, those who think in the 6th Century intellecual paradigm, time is either stand still /arrested or things are reversible to the ancient order...so Pashtuns (a society in its primordial state in your opinion) have neither changed nor corrupted by modernization to a degree to be non-purable....

I sometimes really petty on you...You are analysing others but can't see how self-deceptive/self-deluding your own utopia are...and how much have you fallen to that...My advice to you is, if you are affiliated with any pan-Islamist puritonist revivalist movement, disassociate from it as soon as you can ...The problem with such movements is, they isolate you from the ideological currents and countercurrents in your environment and shape you into some one living entirely into a Dar-ul-Harb versus Dar-ul-Islam type of binary world where goodness is pitched against evil...

After you have done that, go to Pukhtunkhwa and see for yourself, how Pashtuns really are and what tides carry them away ..My advise to you will be, to go to Karkhanai to see for yourself how do they conduct themselves in business ...Just short of Landi-Kotal by the roadside, see for yourself bars where they openly sell vodka and whisky...Go to any Pashtun Hujra and watch the elders and youngsters how devily do they swear at each other... and hatch conspiracies against each other...Next go to any court to see what evil things are their legal fights over...

Ask any Pashtun running contraband busness...and he may also tell you he wants Islam....But what is his concept of Islam !...His concept of Isalm is, a system and society where there are mosques but no mullahs to police him or forbid him from running his profitable business...Roam around in the bazar and see how lustfully Pashtuns look at other people sisters and daughters...Next, go to any educational insitution and ask the academia and students what is their understanding of Islamic system...

All in all, you would reach one conclusion...that is, most Pashtuns want some vague concept of Islam that is either remote from their practical lives or that can be twisted and re-twisted to accommodate/sanction their worldly desires, lusts, and greed...

This Pashtun society as an Islamic society is a figment of your imagination and a projection of your own utopia caused by your circumstances and environment....

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Yeah, well they exist, always have, and always will. What are you gonna do about it, kill them? Good luck doing that. You can kill people, but you can't kill ideas. Those ideas will always be there.

Now, beloved brother, just because your parents and other dear elders sheltered you so much that they denied you exposure to people who are different from you, including those who completely reject your religious doctrines, albeit for very good reasons, doesn't even slightly mean that those people don't exist. Meaning, just because you don't know or have never met or come across Pukhtuns who are not Muslims doesn't mean they don't exist or don't matter. Even if they're less than 2% of the entire population, they matter -- as much as you and I and the rest of us matter.

And so what that they're a minority? So what that they will never be able to "convert" the rest of the Pukhtun race to their way of life or to their beliefs? Honestly, I think the more you try to prevent them from expressing themselves, be it their religious beliefs, and the more you deny that they exist and are as much Pukhtun as YOU are, the more strength you give them to fight for their existence and for their right to be, their right to believe or disbelieve.

Oh, and ... dude, just because YOU think that "Pukhtaney" = Muslim doesn't mean that's how it really is or that's how it should be. Besides, that always raises the question: What does it mean to be a Muslim, and what constitutes Muslimhood? If you look around here on this forum alone, there are so many religious differences among the Muslims, even among those who claim to be "just" following God and His Prophet, and almost all of them go around telling each other they're not Muslim or are not equally guided! One can only wish that things were as simple as Pukhtun = Muslim.

Its not that issue at all. I believe its the issue of honesty and representation. Its the issue of reality versus make believe. So for example, one can make believe that Pashtuns or Afghans are willing to accept a theory or conference put on in Qandahar about how Christ might have had a secret lover named Mary Magdelene or how Solomon worshipped idols in the Old Testament. One can make believe that a conference can be put on in either Peshawar or Kabul about the Satanic Verses without incident. One can even believe that the only disrupters would be the big bad Taliban.

However, then there is reality. Reality says that Queen Soraya and her husband will, with a single act, trigger a burning insurgency that will engulf the south of Afghanistan when she unveils only her face. Reality says that Malalai Joya will be kicked out of a parliamentarian process for referring to former warlords as murderers.

Now, I do not know why you were included in a list of potential atheists. I have not seen any evidence to show you disbelieve in God, which is the definition of atheism.

However, contrast the behavior and intellectual honesty of a few people:
So you have Amir Ghaznavi on here. He has stated, in no abashed terms that he is an agonistic. He has not minced words, called himself a nonpracticing Muslim, a new age liberal Muslim, or ascribed to any other belief system. He stated it right out in the open. With this freedom of thought, read his solemn words in that interaction on the pornography industry and secularism etc. or whatever that thread was that Wrayun initiated. He stated without distinction or bs'ing: if you think you can hoist a secular system by force on Pashtuns, boy do you have a thing or two to learn. Here are his words:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...phy-laws-5777/

"REGARDLESS OF YOUR OPINIONS, PAKHTUNS CANT AND WONT LIVE UNDER A SECULAR SYSTEM FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER 50 YEARS. SO SHARIA LOVERS, FEAR NOT. AND SECULARISTS, IF YOU ADVOCATE SECULARISM IN OUR AREAS NOW, YOURE A RETARD." (page 2 of thread)

Because of his ability to separate his analysis from either A) what he wants to happen or B) what he hopes would happen or C) what his parents told him would happen... he is able to see the writing on the wall. Note the bitter and insulting words that parsiwaan and others hurled at him after his interview on Canadian television where he stated the obvious and unadulterated truth about the complexities of the Afghan/Pakistani relationship minus all the BS and imaginary-fiction laced scenarios Toramana and the ANPers throw into this discussion. He was called Paki, slave of Osama, etc. All of this even though he is an avowed agnostic. Now after him receiving that level of idiotic ad hominem in an attempt to diminish his analysis, what comes out but this report validating everything we have stated in the past about Pakistan, its mentality, and the durand line:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/pashtun...tml#post352208

Now, Graveyard Wrorre may have been a little overt in his sentiment and at first, I thought that it was perhaps a little too close to takfirist ideology for me... but now I think that he actually did a very brave thing calling out the guys.

The reason? Because quiet simply just as antisemitism is used to shut down any discussion that is had regarding the groundlevel realities Israel/Palestine/Aid to israel so too is this charge of: wahabism, pan Islamism, etc used in regard to these issues we discuss. That is why it has lost its sheen or appeal at this point. Its a blunted sword.

The issue here is that folks are refusing to do what we call ethical disclosures in medicine. If you are writing a research paper on cholesterol lowering drugs and get funded by a drug company, that should be right in the margins of that paper.

By that same token, just as Ghaznavi was brave enough to make his view apparent, without mincing words, so too should these folks that so easily hurl the charge pan Islamist, wahabi, etc. Instead, they are completely dishonest and refuse to disclose their view on Islam itself and their belief in it. Further, they refuse to disclose what role that may play in what they advocate for the future of Pashtun lands.

For instance, if one says: I wish to establish an interest based banking system in Afghanistan to buttress the economics of this imaginary secular state... I don't care what new age, Crone Cookesque, concocted interpretation you want to throw at it, I could care less what Manji based tafsir exists, because the ayaah is Quranically crystal clear about war that is declared from God and his Prophet on such a people. So these folks, like Baygham, Toramana, and all other comers need to state openly where do they stand on such complex issues that will unavoidably confront a secular Pashtun state.

So now instead, what they do is throw invective at Graveyard, calling him a talib, a Paki, etc etc and a Pan Islamist ABCD (even though he is not Pakistani so he automatically does not get the D portion of that stupid acronym). When he answers them back, questioning where they stand on the issues at hand they quickly cower under the protective cloth of La illaha ilullah and brazenly refer to him as hyperreactionary etc. All of it of course is meritless BS on their part.

So contrary to what folks write and thank eachother about above... they are hardly brave... Ghaznavi is brave. These are cowards that refuse to state where they stand. Why? Because they know that the minute they admit to atheism or agnosticism, their agenda laced argument becomes apparent. The motive suddenly appears for all to see and the argument then becomes as susceptible as the Taliban's own argument to being ideologically charged.

Rather Graveyard wrorre, I think you should escalate this charge. Their attempt is to discredit argument of yours by attempting to say a few untruths, namely:

1) Pashtuns are sociologically diverse. OK. Great. So they drink vodka in secret and watch a few naked dancers in the hujra now and then. So what? How does that somehow equate with Pashtuns in Pashtunistan suddenly want their daughters to live the Kim Kardashian life and have Americans or any other infidel powers hoist a system on them?

2) Pashtuns are secular by nature. Once again, regardless of how they practice Islam or where the Mullah belongs in their life, that still does not equate with an acceptance of secular hegemony imposed by an outside power in a manner that conflicts with the cultural norms of that group.

3) Islam allows a divergency of viewpoints and to question faith is a wonderful philosophical journey. OK, great. We agree, but that does not mean squat in pashuntistan or somalia when the classical rallying cry for fighting an occupier has been around defensive jihad. They were called Ghazis in Amanullahs day when he rallied them. Ahmad Shah Abdali himself was called Ghazi.

So keep referring to their atheist credentials openly and loudly. Let it become synonymous with their agenda.

Only cease when they abandon their foolish canard of Pan Islamism or intolerance of diverse thought.