Ahmad Shah Abdali, Politics, and Pashtun Loyalties.

[ScimitarXEdge]

BarakzaiAbdali

don't fall for Toramana's divide and rule strategy he is mimicking from the British, of exacerbating divisions between one region of Pashtuns to another. Toramana's merely taking empty jargon.

Notice that he can't even give an example of Khushal's poetry in response to your citation of Ahmad Shah Baba.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BarakzaiAbdali

don't fall for Toramana's divide and rule strategy he is mimicking from the British, of exacerbating divisions between one region of Pashtuns to another. Toramana's merely taking empty jargon.

Notice that he can't even give an example of Khushal's poetry in response to your citation of Ahmad Shah Baba.

Salamoona Edge,

Thank you. Also, I wanted to let you know I learn a lot from your posts. We disagree on various points, but in general I find your independence of thought to be refreshing.

Regarding Toramana, I have family members here and there that are like this. I know what he is trying to do, and I should not really characterize Khushal Khans poetry per my only cursory aquaintance with it, as this will, as you say, create offense.. That was wrong of me to do. Any Khattaks out there should know that I am merely speaking in a literary criticism viewpoint. I could not write even a hundreth as well as he did.

For all I know Khushaal Khan may have had different reasonings for his actions. However, my reading of his biography written by one of his direct descendents confirmed that he was wronged by Aurangzeb, but in the way of trade and money as it affected his khel at Akora. This in turn sparked his animosity to the Mughals. Otherwise, his father and his grandfather before were chiefs at the behest of the Mughals. I may be wrong and will be pleased to be corrected as I do not want to disparage any of our great ancestors. I mean heck, I am a Pashtun and can be the first to identify how enticing badal and stubborness is. I might have and probably would have done many of the same things and felt wronged in the same way.

Toramana is harmless. I believe something happened in his life that triggered this mindset in him. I understand that he probably would love to see me muzzled, but that is OK, he cannot accomplish this. I would be interested to learn more about him and understand what led him to his conclusions on life, religion, and politics. I mean he is a product of having been raised in Pashtunkhwa.... so it would only be enlightening to know what created this obstinance of thought in him.

[faye]

how benign of you, barakzai abdali. and here was i, wondering if you and scimitarxedge were doing advanced studies at 'abu guraib university' how to join forces and 'try' to, intellectually diminish another human to a puddle of piss on the pavement.
but i would say 'such arguments (as yours) are considered logical fallacies' and 'imperialist motivated trend' shock and awe tactics are definitely not the right way to win hearts and minds.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Toramana has a pathology which must be addressed. I am not trying to diminish Toramana as much as I'm trying to enlighten others of certain psychological tactics and false appeals that Toramana and other individuals use to smoke screen. He in fact DOES make false logical appeals; that must be addressed as he attempts to use such tactics to MISINFORM and DISTORT. I'm not concerned in whether I win hearts and minds in the way you perceive it. My first priority is Truth, and the winning of hearts and minds will happen when the pieces fall as they should.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

how benign of you, barakzai abdali. and here was i, wondering if you and scimitarxedge were doing advanced studies at 'abu guraib university' how to join forces and 'try' to, intellectually diminish another human to a puddle of piss on the pavement.
but i would say 'such arguments (as yours) are considered logical fallacies' and 'imperialist motivated trend' shock and awe tactics are definitely not the right way to win hearts and minds.

Dear Faye,

I am thankful for the confirmation that we are effectively “defanging” Toramana so as to speak.

Regarding the hearts and minds, I beg to differ regarding such an abstract concept. As you will note in my article on Nationalism and Interventionalism, these folks hardly have cared for the mind, much less the heart of any of the Pashtuns that they are slowly but surely drawing a self tightening noose around the Pashtuns in their own land. Furthermore, their cat calls and swan songs demanding interventionalism in Afghanistan has killed many a heart and destroyed many a good mind, amongst Pashtuns and Americans equally. True to a possibly liberal interventionalist nature, you call for appeasing the hearts and minds. Perhaps you ought to consider that the fuel for any insurgency is just that, the heart and the mind, hence its acceleration in Afghanistan. Nation building, winning hearts and minds, building three schools in Timbuktu or Kandahar to win nominal fealty means little when a people view themselves as occupied and their value system as under attack.

Regarding logical fallacies, you appear to be bereft of any contributing counterpoints, and we eagerly await your rebuttal of the original post. Note that there was no advocacy of Islamic Imperialism therein. The point of the original post was to remind Afghans of that very Pashtun that erected their nation state; that warrior poet of old did not see the world as a separation between church and state or secularist in any way, shape, or form. Very true inheritors of his, such as the Faqir of Ipi, and others, he saw the world through tribal Pashtun eyes and coupled this to what he could learn from his majlis with the ulema. There is not a single edict on the books where Ahmad Shah demoted the punishments for adultery, murder, stealing, or other measures from their tribal and Islamic status. Yet Afghan Mellat and ANP tout Abdali as their archetype forebear.

Finally, regarding shock and awe, I recall the many thanks and pms I received after initially neutralizing Toramana and his ilk who drove a great many contributor away with their typical 1 and 2 accusations of being crypto Pakistanis and Terrorists in order to silence them. These were pms from Afghans who grew up in their own native culture on the other side of the Durand line in Afghanistan itself.

So, if the kitchen gets hot, and you do not like the back and forth and cannot contribute…. Then you are free to not partake in what we cook up.

[ScimitarXEdge]

All one needs to do is call out Toramana's misinformation or fallacies and he ends up either completely abandoning a debate or trying to disparage the presenter. It's not hard, he's not as educated as he'd like to portray himself as being.

Once in a side debate he tried to use a Wikipedia definition to draw straws against my use of the term "Global Ecology" when I was speaking in respects to how humans in general evolved as a species for which a specific set of values/practices served their faculties. I then had to show him a text book on Human Global Ecology to demonstrate that this is an actual concept.

Toramana is mourning that he does not have free reign manipulate the intellectual climate of this forum unchallenged.

[faye]

defanging and nukerising people who have a differnent opinion doesn't appear to be a very honourable way of getting a message across. ganging up on people is just pathetic.
i see other arguments on this forum that have some creative insults thrown back and forth but nastiness, spite and intimidation are a turn off. they don't produce creative results.
you can have all the education in the world but if you don't have heart and empathy, then you just don't get it.
you are thinking that i think this is 'hot'? i have been debating with men for a century. they usually stand up and their voices get louder, when they start fumbling for answers. oh yeah, and their chest puffs up.
i am empathetic to afghanistan and on this forum i am learning but i was sa
addened then angry to see your behaviour. thanks for responding.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

defanging and nukerising people who have a differnent opinion doesn't appear to be a very honourable way of getting a message across. ganging up on people is just pathetic.
i see other arguments on this forum that have some creative insults thrown back and forth but nastiness, spite and intimidation are a turn off. they don't produce creative results.
you can have all the education in the world but if you don't have heart and empathy, then you just don't get it.
you are thinking that i think this is 'hot'? i have been debating with men for a century. they usually stand up and their voices get louder, when they start fumbling for answers. oh yeah, and their chest puffs up.
i am empathetic to afghanistan and on this forum i am learning but i was sa
addened then angry to see your behaviour. thanks for responding.

Dear Faye, perhaps you might elucidate where the insults were hurled? After all, one must respond in kind when he is accused of terrorism and being unAmerican or unPashtun. Each time an argument is made that these folks do not like, they tend to hurl ad hominem and question loyalties. They make dangerous accusations of terrorism and attempt to silence dissent.

You add to this by attempting to claim that anyone that fights back against this is "aggressive." For that matter, you claim sympathy for Afghanistan, but how does this sympathy fare for the young Talib or insurgent that desires to kill as many foreigners as he can that are occupying his country? Can you empathize or sympathize or imagine that?

In the states, its no different than someone criticizing Sarah Palin's inability to connect basic governmental concepts, or Christine O Donnell's inability to actually understand the amendments she claims to represent. For that matter, it is very very reasonable to question President Obama's true educational level on battle field strategy when he and McCain talk about sending 2 new brigades of troops to Afghanistan, when an brigade contains about 6,000 men and falls very short of the projected 500,000 troops needed to "do the job".

You were absent for the initial back and forth where ScimitarEdge's mother was referred to as a Camel by Toramana, where the former had not said a single personal thing about the latter. You stayed silent when those of subcontinent descent and Arab descent are ethnically maligned.

So spare me your swan song. The Afghans need neither your sympathy nor welfare if that sympathy means silencing dissent and that welfare comes with strings attached and are not war reparations.

[faye]

ba, i was actually accusing you of being tooooo american (in the negative.) sorry that you did not get it. i thought that with your superior education from the us that you would have learnt the basics of debate and analysis.
now, now, don't start accusing me of things i didn't say and there is no need to bring yourself down to "these folks" level.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

ba, i was actually accusing you of being tooooo american (in the negative.) sorry that you did not get it. i thought that with your superior education from the us that you would have learnt the basics of debate and analysis.
now, now, don't start accusing me of things i didn't say and there is no need to bring yourself down to "these folks" level.

I do not suppose to have a superior education, hence my admiration for other medical systems. When I advise regarding obtaining US training, that is in regard to folks that want to work with optimal technology and a system overflowing with resources. You might be confusing me with Shlombay regarding claims made over the American education system. Perhaps you were offended by my statement that not a single American dollar should go to the poor and needy of other countries. I qualified that statement and made sure to clarify that the federal government ensures that American dollars are followed closely with an American presence. Take for instance the fact that the American Ambassador to Pakistan stated the US has every right to involve itself in internal Pakistan affairs primarily because American dollars prop up the regime. Zalmay Khalilzad said much of the same regarding the Karzai government. Moreover, what justifies Americans having their tax dollars used in Haiti or anywhere without their consent?

I am actually advocating a position I would assume you would endorse, which is that Americans ought not get involved in the affairs of other people. It happens to the detriment of both the people chosen for this "enlightenment of the little brown people" or to the American populace.

Regarding "their level," one has to debate such ideologies, whether they be Pan Islamism, Pax Americana, Arab or Persian Nationalism, Communism etc to the utmost and ferociously beacuse all of these ideologies propose a system that seeks to "perfect" man.

I refuse to take on the mantra of "turn the other cheek" when doing so allows folks to subvert truth. In fact, being able to physically turn the other cheek is very dependent on openly being able to answer verbally.

Finally, you do not appear to understand the sad fact that you too are suffering because of these people's will to have others do their fighting. You probably have heard of the dead soldiers and maimed fighters etc. You also ought to read about Mr. Saleh of Panjshir and his continued calls for Western interventionalism. Toramana and his ilk are unwilling to fight with their own bare hands so they instead serve as fifth column citizens, endangering the uninvolved folks of their adopted nations by involving them in nation building and occupation ventures world round. There is absolutely no reason why a Rick or a Steve should die in Swaat or in Kandahar when the fight is between Mullah Fazlullah and Toramana.

[faye]

yes debate is good.
all of the soldiers becoming murderers and being maimed and murdered are puppets for 'big money' i am against war and i am also against the assumpion of america as leader of the free world. we all got to live together and we all got to work together.
afghanistan now has the resources and if there is not a "great afghanistan heist" they will be able to look after themselves, with good governance and honest, reliable financial advisers.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

yes debate is good.
all of the soldiers becoming murderers and being maimed and murdered are puppets for 'big money' i am against war and i am also against the assumpion of america as leader of the free world. we all got to live together and we all got to work together.
afghanistan now has the resources and if there is not a "great afghanistan heist" they will be able to look after themselves, with good governance and honest, reliable financial advisers.

Absolutely. If you go back and read all of Toramana's posts from day 1 and all of Mr. Edge's posts I think a different picture will emerge as the former has maintained that American occupation bases must persist solely to counter Pakistani occupation. If I am guilty of anything is advocating that the region solve its own disputes. The Afghans and the Iraqis have proven that they, like the Tunisians, have every capability to actively fight occupation if they believe they are living it. The Afghans will deal with any foreign hand in their affairs.

You caught us all in the heat of the moment. However, the debate between the three of us has generally centered on facets of what you wrote above. He is much more silent here merely because Swat, where he is from, has a bit of less connection with Ahmad Shah Abdali, so he probably feels out of his element. Where the debate about someone like Rahman Baba or Khushal Khan Khattak, he would likely be much more active than he is now.

[Admin Khan]

Assalam-Alaikum.

Greetings Dr.BarakzaiAbdali,

I hope you have recovered from your illness. I hope you are doing great.


Many Punjabis claim Ahmad Shah Baba was someone who massacred the innocent Punjabis, and someone who looted them along with taking war booty. They even argue that the reason Kandahar has a few Sikhs, or that Jalalabad has a few Sikhs is because he "forcefully" brought them with him. I think a clarification on our part is certainly needed, considering the fact that Indians have gone as far as creating "dramas" in which they depict Durranis as evil warriors. They argue why did he invaded us 17times, and I am sure you know the rest. I think a proper rebuttal is needed by our Pashtun community. I would like to invite Khalsawarrior, a Punjabi Sikh from India to present his argument as well. What are your thoughts on the aforementioned? I am interested in hearing you out. My relatives are directly related to Ahmad Shah Baba by the way, so according to them, he was a brilliant man. That is something I agree with, but I am biased I guess.

[KhalsaWarrior]

Assalam-Alaikum.

Greetings Dr.BarakzaiAbdali,

I hope you have recovered from your illness. I hope you are doing great.


Many Punjabis claim Ahmad Shah Baba was someone who massacred the innocent Punjabis, and someone who looted them along with taking war booty. They even argue that the reason Kandahar has a few Sikhs, or that Jalalabad has a few Sikhs is because he "forcefully" brought them with him. I think a clarification on our part is certainly needed, considering the fact that Indians have gone as far as creating "dramas" in which they depict Durranis as evil warriors. They argue why did he invaded us 17times, and I am sure you know the rest. I think a proper rebuttal is needed by our Pashtun community. I would like to invite Khalsawarrior, a Punjabi Sikh from India to present his argument as well. What are your thoughts on the aforementioned? I am interested in hearing you out. My relatives are directly related to Ahmad Shah Baba by the way, so according to them, he was a brilliant man. That is something I agree with, but I am biased I guess.

Khan sahb, thanks for initiating this discussion. I would try and put forth arguments to support my point. Let me first start by mentioning a saying that is still prevalent in rural Punjab, "Khada peeta lahey da, baki Ahmed Shahe da". For those of you unfamiliar with Punjabi, translated in English it roughly means, "Whatever you eat, drink, spend is yours; whatever is left/saved is Ahmed Shah's". This saying reveals the extent of cultural impact Ahmed Shah's invasions had on the people of Punjab. And for such a saying to originate, it must have taken a lot of invasions over a sustained period of time.

That Ahmed Shah invaded, pillaged and conquered North-western India is for me an irrefutable fact. However, I do see that as a part and parcel of the times that those were. Things were different then and it was an acceptable fact to have foreigners attacking your lands. And as I once mentioned to Barakzai (I think?) on a similar topic- we shouldn't view history with contemporary lenses.

And Ahmed Shah would of course have been a brilliant man. To unite/conquer the warring Pashtun tribes and then set up a kingdom that stretched from Masshad in Iran to Delhi in India, it would have taken a man of remarkable military acumen and caliber to accomplish it all. And Pashtuns have every right to revere him, as Greeks would revere Alexander or other western conquerors.

On the question of Afghan Sikhs, from what I have read, they came with the Brits as traders. Any conquered Sikhs under Ahmed Shah wouldn't have found the lenience to keep their faith, hence I think their arrival must have been later than Ahmed Shah. Sikhs have used the outreach of the British empire to trade and prosper, setting up businesses in far off places like Hong Kong and Vancouver. So its more likely that the Afghan Sikhs arrived in the later 19th century. And please keep in mind that Sikhs were then present across the whole of undivided Punjab and Kandahar from the banks of the Indus surely isn't that far as it looks now from Indian Punjab.

KW

*I have used Punjab and India in its undivided form.

[ScimitarXEdge]

defanging and nukerising people who have a differnent opinion doesn't appear to be a very honourable way of getting a message across. ganging up on people is just pathetic.
i see other arguments on this forum that have some creative insults thrown back and forth but nastiness, spite and intimidation are a turn off. they don't produce creative results.
you can have all the education in the world but if you don't have heart and empathy, then you just don't get it.
you are thinking that i think this is 'hot'? i have been debating with men for a century. they usually stand up and their voices get louder, when they start fumbling for answers. oh yeah, and their chest puffs up.
i am empathetic to afghanistan and on this forum i am learning but i was sa
addened then angry to see your behaviour. thanks for responding.

There's no "ganging up" there is merely like minded individuals calling a spade a spade.