Ahmad Shah Abdali, Politics, and Pashtun Loyalties.

[Badlun]

Ahmad Shah Baba was no doubt a great Pashtun leader, politician, conquerer, poet and hero. At the same time his Pan islamism should not be emulated now as this idea is totaly dead now. Even at that time he used Pan islamism as a political move to conquer more lands. That was the tradition of that time. He being a wise statesman and Realist capitalized on that. Khilafat was still alive althu moribund. This way he became an international hero. But now this is the time oof nation states and Islamic world or Khilafa or Umma are but just mere ideas or words far ar away from reality.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Barakzai Abdali, there is not a single sensible thing in the whole gibberish that you have put up here...As evident, the motivation for this portrayel of Ahmad Shah Baba character and policies come from your Pan-Islamist leanings, which you take pain to conceal with such terms as American Pashtun and "we Americans"...

I know the Jehadi diaspora in Europe and North America lives in a world of illusions super-imposing the Pan-Muslim utopia on everthing due to their identity crisis...which is an issue of rational thinking and re-adjustment to reality not some reactionary revengeful thinking (would not serve Pashtuns interests)...

What you wrote is your interpretation and presentation of history which few historians would agree with...Furthermore, what Ahmad Shah Baba did cannot be emulated because the objective conditios today are totally different as they were in Khoshal Baba time...Moreover, the glorification of historical figures serve to consolidate national identity i.e. the basic spirit of the assertion of Pashtun identity...that doesn't mean we can apply those models in the present times...

I wonder why couldn't you live under Mullah Omar ... rather preferred to live in a post modern country...?

Then can you respond back to BarakzaiAbdali's post and rebut his claims?

That is the only truly measurable way to demonstrate whether his arguments are not sensible or not.

By the way you're using the term "Post Modern" incorrectly. Post Modern means abandoning rational, objectifiable framework provided by science and embracing subjective emotive, and reactionary.

http://dictionary.merriam-webster.co.../postmodernism
I know it's irrelevant, but it gave me a chuckle.

By the way, the reason we live in North America rather than Mullah Omarville is because of the forces of history; not because N. America is somehow an emblem of comfort,But that being said neither is Mullah Omarville. This applies to you as well, whether you are intellectually apt to acknowledge it or not.

[graveyardofempires]

Unable to counter my argument, Barakzai has made an escape from this place...

give it up loser.

[ScimitarXEdge]

The original post itself devastates your argument. What you just wrote is like saying: I got beat, but since he beat me so hard, I actually beat him. Any objective observor can easily note that you injected opinion, i.e. "you are wrong because I, Toramana, say you are." Sprinkled in the charge of "Pan Islamism" true to your old algorithm of attack. Then you failed to answer the challenge.

I plan on giving you a few hours to formulate your response to my prior questions above and the original post, because you faired so poorly. I expected more out of you. I told you, usually you at least provide a poorly referenced secondary source by some Cook and Crone, Wansborough, or Puin style equivalent. This time, I couldn't even get that from you.

Sheesh, the Kanadas in India have a saying in their native language according a past professor of mine: "if you cannot do the basic things, then what good are you except for dragging dead bodies!"

He didn't even respond back to your argument really, he just childishly scoffed and sneered at what you wrote; without any demonstration as to why his perception was legitimate and why yours is actually wrong by direct assessments.

He also misused arguments without understanding ther logical applications. Sort of in conflict with his banner of "rationality"/

[ScimitarXEdge]

One of the reasons I have strong admiration for Abdali is the strong hand he dealt against the Sikhs, and rightfully so.

Even though I'm a Hotak and maybe perceived as being from a rival clan than the Abdalis my Islamic sensibilities make me forgoe those for the greater good.

[fzpz]

Can't say much about Islam or about being a muslim. I don't know enough, and i'm barely muslim. But one thing is clear, Ahmad Shah and his like were men, men others dream about being. It's clear he knew and understood full well where his power (confidence) came from. He knew full well that without 'that' (Islam) he was nothing. Why is it so hard for people to understand that today? He had a backbone. He didn't need to fit into other people's definition of who he as a Muslim should be. Today we are all busy tripping over each other to appear all 'liberal' and 'not like those types' muslims.

[fzpz]

Agreed wholeheartedly. But the people that are trying to do that will be defined as 'extremists' 'islamists' etc...

[Toramana]

Some ludicrous efforts by Pan-Islamists and probably also Paki nationalists to re-invent Ahmad Shah Baba as a Pan-Islamist...It is the usual tactic Paki nationalists and some Muslim nationlists employ to trivialize Pashtun identity and quest for asserting that identity...

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Some ludicrous efforts by Pan-Islamists and probably also Paki nationalists to re-invent Ahmad Shah Baba as a Pan-Islamist...It is the usual tactic that Paki nationalists and some Muslim nationlists use to trivialize Pashtun quest for self-rule...

Those historians you promised, dear Sir? Your point by point rebuttal of historical fact?

Twas you that reinvented on your ANP pages... we just clarified history.

[Toramana]

you are an anti-pashtun donkey seeking to erase pashtun traditions.

You are a SHAM

you yourself have claimed several times that you are not Pashtun.

Oh, really? Hawsala oka...I am posting some more news of Taleban attrocities and status as Punjab's proxies...Read the news Cateya has posted ...how have Mullah Omar and Sirajuddin Haqqani been loyal to their boss Brig Amir Mohammad Khan Tarar from Punjab urf Colonel Imam...

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Oh, really? Hawsala oka...I am posting some more news of Taleban attrocities and status as Punjab's proxies...Read the news Cateya has posted ...how have Mullah Omar and Sirajuddin Haqqani been loyal to their boss Brig Amir Mohammad Khan Tarar from Punjab urf Colonel Imam...

It appears your colleague Osho does not present a united front with you in the interpretation of historical events. He at least, accepted history for what it is and urged against adopting Abdali's admitted Pan Islamist strategems. Similar to you, he attempted to assign Abdalis inclinations to either A)strategy or B)the times in which the man lived. Both are impotent and predictable arguments. None of these arguments deal affectively with the 7 points, especially Abdalis deep regard for Waliullah, an admitted adherent to what you call "camelism" per his quote regarding shedding off cultural chains and adhereing to the culture and mannerisms of the early Arab companions of the Prophet (PBUH). Perhaps you can produce a quote from Ahmad Shah's Tarikh where he accuses Waliullah of "camelism." Nor do they deal with the Uighar issue as it stands and is it is undeniable that China bought no effective threat to his empire, yet he remained ever concerned with their plight. A and B are effectively canards.

My friend, I expect more from you than intellectual impotence. How can I hone my arguments and continue to learn when you present no viable response except "I am threatened by this and hate it."

Do yourself some dignity and response in earnest and with some good intellectual feedback.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Oh, really? Hawsala oka...I am posting some more news of Taleban attrocities and status as Punjab's proxies...Read the news Cateya has posted ...how have Mullah Omar and Sirajuddin Haqqani been loyal to their boss Brig Amir Mohammad Khan Tarar from Punjab urf Colonel Imam...

PS my "feudal lord" we await your responses here:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...25/index3.html

[Toramana]

Barakzai, when I see your propaganda on this forum, somehow I see strands of Pakistani strategic thinking in what you say e.g., General Asad Durrani, the ex-DG, ISI, used to say exactly the same things about Ahmad Shah Baba as you are saying i.e. Ahmad Shah Baba was actually a Taleb and Taleban phenomenon is not an exception to Pashtun history but is rather a norm...In this way, he used to emphasize the central role and status of Talibs in Pashtun society and used to plead the case for Mullah Omar...

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Barakzai, when I see your propaganda on this forum, somehow I see strands of Pakistani strategic thinking in what you say e.g., General Asad Durrani, the ex-DG, ISI, used to say exactly the same things about Ahmad Shah Baba as you are saying i.e. Ahmad Shah Baba was actually a Taleb and Taleban phenomena is not an exception in Pashtun history but is rather a norm...In this way, he used to emphasize the central role and status of Talibs in Pashtun society and used to plead the case for Mullah Omar...

Authors from Andy Bluden to Freidrich Engels to HG Keen have noted the same phenomena and documented Abdali's call for jihad. For that matter Michael Scheuer notes the Islamic aura of Salahuddin Ayubi... does that make Scheuer an ISI agent? The canard, true to your old ones, falls short.

Hook, line, and sinker, trademark Toramana. Same 1 and 2 punch as always (the left hook is to scream "Pakistan" and the right hook is to scream "Pan-Islamist"). Its getting boring. As I said, I expect more from you. Your readership is getting disheartened at your obvious impotence on the subject.

Authors and evidence to counter historical facts 1-7 as promised please. Otherwise, please do not clutter up the forum with irrelevencies.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Barakzai, when I see your propaganda on this forum, somehow I see strands of Pakistani strategic thinking in what you say e.g., General Asad Durrani, the ex-DG, ISI, used to say exactly the same things about Ahmad Shah Baba as you are saying i.e. Ahmad Shah Baba was actually a Taleb and Taleban phenomenon is not an exception to Pashtun history but is rather a norm...In this way, he used to emphasize the central role and status of Talibs in Pashtun society and used to plead the case for Mullah Omar...

PS, attempting to locate the works of Asad Durrani on Ahmad Shah Abdali and none are to be found. Bad show comrade, bad show. In your climbing age, you are becoming less and less capable of producing at least reasonable propaganda.