What if you saw this in Europe?

[IamDZJ]

They could've simply put a sign board "Muslim Holy Places" and non-Muslims would've avoided them....Literally mentioning non-Muslims is rather offensive and degrading.

if someone calls me a non jew i will not be offended.
shouldn't people living in poor countries like pakistan and afghanistan who spend their lifetime to gather enough money to go to hajj be provided with more convenience to perform their hajj over someone who is bored out of their life and are looking for an 'exotic' place to vacation??
if they had women walking around in their shorts and men shirtless, then there wouldn't be a point of going all the way there for hajj...experiencing the piousness of the holy place is why people travel there from all over the world in the first place.

[Toramana]

if someone calls me a non jew i will not be offended.
shouldn't people living in poor countries like pakistan and afghanistan who spend their lifetime to gather enough money to go to hajj be provided with more convenience to perform their hajj over someone who is bored out of their life and are looking for an 'exotic' place to vacation??
if they had women walking around in their shorts and men shirtless, then there wouldn't be a point of going all the way there for hajj...experiencing the piousness of the holy place is why people travel there from all over the world in the first place.

Not convincing from humanistic point of view. The sign-boards have explicit meanings i.e. not accessible to the sinful/unclean. Why are on earth would somebody (i.e. a non-Muslim) visit a place where he/she has the fear to be caught up in congestion?


Moreover, it is like limiting Islam. Make it open to non-Muslims for them to have a positive image of it. Let them participate in worship and feel the spiritual impact.

But this may also be due to the politics of Al-Saud monarchy. Too many foreigners at too many places may ultimately lead to open-ness and the briging down of the Hosue of Al-Saud.

[IamDZJ]

Not convincing from humanistic point of view. Why are on earth would somebody (i.e. a non-Muslim) visit a place where he/she has the fear to be caught up in congestion?

Moreover, it is like limiting Islam. Make it open to non-Muslims for them to have a positive/tolerant image of it. Let them participate in worship and feel the spiritual impact.

But this may also be due to the politics of Al-Saud monarchy. Too many foreigners at too many places may ultimately lead to open-ness and the briging down of the Hosue of Al-Saud.

i don't know about the politics behind it but i don't see why a person would be offended by a sign somewhere they are not likely to visit.
i still think priority should be given to people who go there to worship.

[randolph85]

non muslims participating in worship in mecca? wtf

non muslims who travel to saudi arabia to begin with probably don't hate islam or are indifferent to it, entering a city is not going to convert anyone when they could just pick up a quran during the 99.99% of their lives outside of saudi arabia.

do you invite strangers into your home? because they aren't family or anyone close? well stop discriminating and follow your own advice, let everyone in.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Toramana is doing what they call "grasping for straws".

[randolph85]

i am convinced that these are paid posters who work for someone elses agenda. its not uncommon, especially on forums like these.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Not convincing from humanistic point of view. The sign-boards have explicit meanings i.e. not accessible to the sinful/unclean. Why are on earth would somebody (i.e. a non-Muslim) visit a place where he/she has the fear to be caught up in congestion?


Moreover, it is like limiting Islam. Make it open to non-Muslims for them to have a positive image of it. Let them participate in worship and feel the spiritual impact.

But this may also be due to the politics of Al-Saud monarchy. Too many foreigners at too many places may ultimately lead to open-ness and the briging down of the Hosue of Al-Saud.

Firstly; when you say Humanist you mean Secular Humanist, not genuine Humanism.

I Don't see how, Dubai has tons of foreigners; and they're just as corrupt as the Saudis if not more.


Don't look at things by openness or closedness, look at it from corruption vs. justice. How open a society from Secular Humanist standards doesnt make a society less corrupt.

By the way what do you think of me being barred from Hindu temples? (Don't avoid the question this time)

[ScimitarXEdge]

the fact they're here all the time is kind of evidence for that; Unfortunately my vacation is almost up so I will be coming here less frequently starting monday.

[Toramana]

I don't approve of you being bared from temple or other religions baring people.

Moreover, I feel anybody who wants to know about Islam should be allowed to participate in acts/rituals of worship ... I think this openness should be brought about as soon as possible (would have positive impact for Islam in my opinion).

[ScimitarXEdge]

Then why aren't you addressing Hindu Temples barring lower castes and Muslims with the same amount of fervor?

WHy aren't you going to Hindus and arguing these things as well for their religion?

[randolph85]

I don't approve of you being bared from temple or other religions baring people.

Moreover, I feel anybody who wants to know about Islam should be allowed to participate in acts/rituals of worship ... I think this openness should be brought about as soon as possible (would have positive impact for Islam jn my opinion).

what kind of non muslim participates in rituals of worship before becoming muslim? do you have any logic whatsoever?

theres a book out there thats been around for for a good 1400 yrs or so, translated in nearly language which is not too long and not too short, it pretty much sums up the religion of islam in a nutshell. its called the quran.

if people are interested in islam they would read that instead of joining in acts of worship with muslims while not knowing what they are doing or for what reason, let alone believing in it.

[Toramana]

Let the Hindu reformers deal with that...But I condemn this extremly racist act in strongest terms. There shouldn't be any doubt about that.

[Toramana]

what kind of non muslim participates in rituals of worship before becoming muslim? do you have any logic whatsoever?

theres a book out there thats been around for for a good 1400 yrs or so, translated in nearly language which is not too long and not too short, it pretty much sums up the religion of islam in a nutshell. its called the quran.

if people are interested in islam they would read that instead of joining in acts of worship with muslims while not knowing what they are doing or for what reason, let alone believing in it.

ma ooshmaira dargad shum...

[ScimitarXEdge]

Toramana's logic is always weak; there's absolutely NO reason for a Kaffir to practice or participate in Islamic practices; because to participate in Islamic Practices you must have Niyyah which means intention; without establishing a belief in Islam the practices are useless and serve no purpose.

Toramana is basically arguing that Islam lower it's high standards of conduct just for the sake of Other's acceptance; but he doesn't realize than that wouldn't actually be Islam.

The practices of Islam has requirements, one of those is that one is a believing Muslim.


would Toramana then argue that Infidels be punished by Islamic Law too for drinking and adultery?

If he believes Islam should open it's arms; then it would be only logical for them to participate in ALL aspects of Islam, including penal code

come on Toramana, let's test the depths of your pretentious facade of openness.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Let the Hindu reformers deal with that...But I condemn this extremly racist act in strongest terms. There shouldn't be any doubt about that.

Why should Hindu reformers deal with it? You're a SECULAR HUMANIST remember? Which means your arguments should apply to EVERYONE and ALL religions....RIGHT???

I smell Agenda