What if you saw this in Europe?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Alchemist brought me here to smash people like Toramana and Mazloom apart so they can go crawl back to their New Delhi based CIA Cadre knowing that their spending the last 10 years learning Pashto was all a waste.

I realize maybe people have totally disregarded Mazloom; but to me Toramana and Mazloom dialogues are an instrument; I'm aware I provide strong arguments so since they both peddle typical Islamophobic rhetoric; I provide for others the intellectual tools of how to combat them when they see them in their real life.

So whenever a pink faced European Right Wing donkey or American redneck or a Bhangra dancing Freakshow with a Bindi on his head runs their mouth; they'll get put in their place rightfully.

[Manzareh]

Torakwana, why laugh at someone for voicing their opinion?? seems as though your not as civilised as the westerners are you despite trying your upmost best to have their character, no need for 'hahahaha' 5 year old finger pointing, what? cat got your tounge? your laughter gives a million signs of frustration.

Now Mazloom,

1- Saudi is not a muslim country, it has muslims in it yes, thats all and bits of laws from shariah which is picked and chosen, these Arabs see them selfs as the 'khaleeg' or 'khawaarage' they see themselves as the elite above all human beings..including over muslims, its in their character to look down or people or be blunt and say 'sorry mate, your not one of us', islamically you can have churches, synigogs and temples in your country (muslims have prtected other religions in the past just look at how the muslims actually built churches and gave ther architects to christians in spain..religions have flourished under great muslim empires i.e mughals in india, spain, jerusalam, turkey) stop being naive and trying to spread propaganda about muslims with your out of context pictures.


2- we dont need a sign for 'muslims only' or 'no muslims' in the western world its naturally present, infact thers areas in England were its moraly excepted that brown people may not enter (or they will get smashed up) racism is widely excepted all over europe, whats your excuse for white people in america just 60 years ago having sighes saying "no dogs, no black people" "white people only bus" "black people only bus" seperate toilets, whats your justification? regardless of wether it happends now or not why was it excepted??


3- Like someone mentioned here, these signs are vital to have in saudi as the 100's of millions of people flocking to worship, you need a clear destinction between tourism and a religious trip, these signs act as an aid so people end up i the right place, muslims die from stampeads during pilgrimage do you think it would make any sense for a non muslim to be there taking pictures and taking up valueble space to worship. you dont see these signs in any other muslim country its an exeption which is both logically and morally proven.

thanks

[Wrayun]

..................

[Toramana]

Ok, raza chai nan pa kai torkham tha angata wachawo...

i have no problem with the sign seen as one enters the vilayat of makkah.
it is a sacrosanct place. there is plenty in history where europeans came to the region disguised and churned out reports to the west of what they saw, through their blinkered euro-centric, judeo-christo centric mindsets (eg richard burton, not the actor but the ethnologist/orientalist/pervert)

What is so special about Mecca and Madina apart from the fact that they are places of worship and some believed holiness? Is there something too shadowy/eccentric/weired going on in the sacrosanct places there in Mecca and Madina for the Western man to mischeviously report on apart from the common acts of worship and religious rituals that can also be observed in mosques in the West? Why so secretive and insecure about it as to add to its mystery manifold (and the consequent negative curiousity)?

At the reason that you are putting forward-rather than being indicative of self-confidence-shows captive mentality.

i have no problems with the signs, the vilayat of mecca and madina are tahir places (pure/pak/clean). non-muslims are socially,morally and religiously NOT tahir.

Not being Tahir is your own subjective opinion with basis in belief that may lend support to the policy of keeping it inaccessible to non-Muslims but to a rational mind, this is utterly bizarre and illogical specially the assertion that the non-Muslims are morally, etc. unclean. This is called moral self-rightuousness.

[Wrayun]

Non-Hindus are not allowed in many Hindu temples. Within Hinduism, lower castes Hindus are not allowed in temples for Brahmins and Kashtriya.

Non-Sikhs are not allowed to enter the Golden Temple, in fact if you are a baptized Sikh vs. born Sikh, you are not allowed to perform certain rituals. Lower caste Sikhs are not allowed in Jatt and Arian temples.

The Vatican city, or the Holy See, is an exclusive Catholic domain. Non-Catholics are not allowed in many areas, and it is restricted to members of the Catholic faith.

Gentiles are not allowed to pray/enter the Temple Mount. In fact, non-Jews are not even allow to enter Jerusalem according to prominent Jewish Rabbis.

You can go anywhere in Saudi, except Mecca and Medina because both are the property of Islam. Therefore to enter it, you must have membership, and that is by accepting Islam. They are not the property of Arabs, or Muslims, but of Islam.

Will the KGB, CIA, FBI, or the White House allow me to enter their localities? Can you enter a country without a passport or proper visa?

Another fail and pathetic attempt.

[Catya Sher]

"Alchemist brought me here to smash people like Toramana and Mazloom apart so they can go crawl back to their New Delhi based CIA Cadre knowing that their spending the last 10 years learning Pashto was all a waste."

Has Scimitar sliced through the transparent veil of their fake identities here for us?
Aha!
Good remarks by Manzareh

Wrayun:

Alittle wrong there: anyone at all can visit St Peter's or most of the Vatican.
The limitations are usually due to long lines.
Not religion.
For the Sistine Chapel, or Vatican Museums, for example.

The real restriction is the same one that supposedly exists EVERYWHERE:
only Roman Catholics may receive Communion at a Mass.

However, this rule is stretched all the time these days, so it barely applies.
Even president clinton, or bush, I've forgotten which, was permitted to receive Communion, which was a terrible blasphemy.
Politicians who favor Abortion are not supposed to receive this Sacrament, either. But as in the case of many prominent ones, the rules are often broken. Talk about celebrity/devil worship being placed over religious rules!

Anyway that's the situation.

No matter what, every airport has signs saying "Baggage Claim here" "To the City this way" -
are the Munafiqeen going to claim THAT is prejudicial?!

Toramana you clearly haven't said your prayers yet.
You slunk away last time, read papers instead, AS THOUGH that were a substitute!
You are hiding behind "HaHa" 's ...

[Toramana]

As for the freedom (of building mosques etc) enjoyed by muslins in the west, well that freedom is based on their (the westerners) principles, which they have learnt through years of blundering and plundering. look at UK, USA, Sweden, Germany etc and how they have allowed foreigners to settle amongst them, given them rights, passports, identity crises, chidren bringing boyfriends and girlfriends home etc, that is the choice of those countries given the awakening after centuries plundering and blundering. compare that with saudia, UAE, Kuwait, no nationality, no passports (except in very rare circumstances)

I don't think plundering has anything to do with developing a higher civilization (you may though argue affluence makes people acquire a broader world-view). Neither all European countries have plundered (e.g. Sweden, Norway, Germany, Denmark, etc. that have laid their arms open to Muslim immigrants). And you cannot obey the rules of a system selectively abiding by it where it suits you but rejecting the rest. With privileges come the obligations. It is also not good that we Muslims are portraying ourselves to be ungrateful/ignoble by taking all advantage of a system but don't respect those very principles that guarantee our rights.

[Toramana]

"Alchemist brought me here to smash people like Toramana and Mazloom apart so they can go crawl back to their New Delhi based CIA Cadre knowing that their spending the last 10 years learning Pashto was all a waste."

Has Scimitar sliced through the transparent veil of their fake identities here for us?
Aha!
Good remarks by Manzareh

Wrayun:

Alittle wrong there: anyone at all can visit St Peter's or most of the Vatican.
The limitations are usually due to long lines.
Not religion.
For the Sistine Chapel, or Vatican Museums, for example.

The real restriction is the same one that supposedly exists EVERYWHERE:
only Roman Catholics may receive Communion at a Mass.

However, this rule is stretched all the time these days, so it barely applies.
Even president clinton, or bush, I've forgotten which, was permitted to receive Communion, which was a terrible blasphemy.
Politicians who favor Abortion are not supposed to receive this Sacrament, either. But as in the case of many prominent ones, the rules are often broken. Talk about celebrity/devil worship being placed over religious rules!

Anyway that's the situation.

No matter what, every airport has signs saying "Baggage Claim here" "To the City this way" -
are the Munafiqeen going to claim THAT is prejudicial?!

Toramana you clearly haven't said your prayers yet.
You slunk away last time, read papers instead, AS THOUGH that were a substitute!
You are hiding behind "HaHa" 's ...

hahaha, Lonely Lady, next time I'll say prayers as you suggested...Now I have started enjoying your posts....hahahahahha...

[Toramana]

it's just sign leading people the right way. with the amount of people they have there for hajj and other religious purposes , it's only fair for them to try and lead people on the right direction. why would a non muslim even go there? it's not for sight seeing.

They could've simply put a sign board "Muslim Holy Places" and non-Muslims would've avoided them....Literally mentioning non-Muslims is rather offensive and degrading.

[randolph85]

What business do non Muslims have in Mecca?

There are already gay bars, ***** houses, and drug houses throughout Europe. A "Muslims not allowed" sign would be the least of any worries or surprises.

If you believe your own ****, why not leave your front door open and let strangers in as they please?

[randolph85]

They could've simply put a sign board "Muslim Holy Places" and non-Muslims would've avoided them....Literally mentioning non-Muslims is rather offensive and degrading.

Yeah, gotta feel bad for those non muslims barred from a place they have no business in.... NOT

[Shehbaz Khan]

I've just read the first post and didn't go through the whole discussion over here ..

But once I heard Dr. Zakir Naik addressing the same issue

He said, there are many places within a country where a common citizen can't go. For example the Army cantontments when you try to enter there they ask for you ID and when you show the regular ID card they won't allow you even though you will say that you are a loyal citizen of this state but you won't be allowed in there. You need an extra card to go in. In the similar way these places Makkah and Madina are the cantonment areas of our society. You can enter any mosque on the face of the earth even if you are non Muslim but you cannot enter those areas unless you are a Muslims and the ID we would like to see before you could enter is that you should say the Shahadah

[Wrayun]

They could've simply put a sign board "Muslim Holy Places" and non-Muslims would've avoided them....Literally mentioning non-Muslims is rather offensive and degrading.

So are you saying that as a non-Muslim, being called a non-Muslim is degrading and offensive? Doesn't make sense.


What happened here is that someone tried to make something out of nothing. These are recycled, lame attempts to criticize Islam lacking genuine and intellectual thinking capacity.

[Toramana]

if you will use example of iberian conquest by the moors, then look how the muslims treated the locals fairly with freedom of religion, then juxtapose how the iberian christians treated their jews. they kicked every single jew out (good reading is Under the Shadows of the Pomegranite Groves by Tariq Ali.

i apologise for going off in a tangent, but these subplots are the foundations that we need to know. i acknowledge my points overlap what is already said very eloquently by scimitar rex.

How does the Muslim religion expand by the way? And have you read history through the perspective of those conquered? And we are not talking about the past but the present where we have to respect others in order to get respect. Not all things are bad in Muslim history nor every thing is good in the history of non-Muslims.

What about the present ? Are we ready to live with others on equal basis in religious matters at least?

[randolph85]

What about the present ? Are we ready to live with others on equal basis in religious matters at least?

why should we? thats assuming and recognizing that other religions are equal to islam, which they arent. this pc garbage has gone too far.