Barakzai: Where you stand

[khyaal]

I'll repeat my post again which you evade to reply.


Your whole logic revolves round one thing that Amanullah khan and Nadir shah's support by certain tribes from across the (illigitimate) Durand line gives an eternal right for Punjab to intervene in Afghan affairs from that land.

You still can't compromise with the fact that that land even back then actually belonged to Afghans, and the British had only defacto control over it. Same is the case with the present day Pakistan which has occupied this land and is using it against the state of Afghanistan.

If Pakistan officially considers the people of tribal agencies to be Afghans (which they are) and thus recognize their right to cross the border for the sake of intervention, Pakistan loses the very right to call FATA its own land.

[Khidr]

Khidr didnt you post it in the wrong thread by the way?

Nope. I read "Parsiwaan" calling Pashtun's like Barakzai a "Paki" and himself true "Afghan" and so I actually felt embarrased for him.

I think this was a good time to address his general subserviant Ghulam-Bachagari.

[Toramana]

Toramana, were you REALLY in Operation Enduring Freedom?

Why don't we know much about you, as the Brilliant 20 year old Fahd cleverly brought out yesterday -!
It's Ok, no one's going to taunt you.

Why are you jokin' around rather than answering the charges leveled by Barakzai here?

Barakzai thanks for the info and the link.
That is SOME LIST of Karzai relatives.
They probably are colluding to hatch a plot to rename the country to Karzaistan...

Quick! Somebody get them out of office before they accomplish this, and send the entire clan back where they belong running their restaurants in Baltimore and other sundry endeavors!

I'd like to follow up on this Yama guy though. That is so strange...

No no Cateya...I have not been on this later assignment ... Earlier during Afghan Jehad, we met the Haqqanis togethor with Barakzai allocated to the task by his side, remember?

[Toramana]

I actually can and do comprimise on that point as I never disagreed that the lands belonged to Pashtuns/Afghan people and that the Panjab occupies and misuses the territory. Where I part ways with you is that the ground level reality: Just because land rightfully belongs to a people (e.g. Palestine to the Palestinians, Kurdistan to the Kurds) does not in a moral respect does not alter the reality of "might makes right" and poor leadership produces poor results. The Pashtuns of FATA cannot magically grab the UN, put a pen in their hand, and say redraw the lines. The same goes for the Pashtuns of the now occupied south of Afghanistan.

Just as the Israeilis forced a redrawing of the lines, this sort of guile and actual planning was required to return the sovreignty of the NWFP to the Afghan government of that time. The squandering of opportunities by former leaders, and utter lack of representative government by the communists and the secularists only deepened the divide between rural and city, Kabul and Peshawar, Kandahar and Quetta, Kharoti and Wazir.

My point, son of Qais AbdurRashid, is that the government of Kabul failed in their duty of acquiring their land when it was theirs for the taking. Their moves of arming Kharoti against Wazir was stupid and backfired, resulting in the Faqir e Ipi being marginalized and the jirgas siding with Pakistan.



I do not think Pakistan has an official stance on the issue and attempts to conduct

Hahahaha Khyaal, that one is for you...Son of Qais AbdurRashid The Afghan Prince has got good sense of humour as well apart from good knowledge about Pakistan's security and diplomacy....

[BarakzaiAbdali]

If on the other hand Pakistan assumes FATA as its own territory then the world will no longer accept their justification of these ISI sponsored terrorists to be some non-state actors .

It might be a valid point save two details

1) As Ron Paul notes, even a massively wealthy country like the US has issues manning, controlling, and securing its southern border. He noted that to expect Pakistan to seal theirs, with the intervening Suleiman Mt Range is absurd.

2) Once again, even M16 has pointed out that his "eye witness" evidence of maddrassahs in his word "brain washing" locals. I on the other hand still believe that there are religiously inclined folks who resort to what they view as defensive jihad of the Birmal Vally etc. To assume that these foot soldiers (average rural Pashtoons) are all state actors is unrealistic. That exactly is my point in all of this. I am saying that if one removes the stimulus (foreign occupation) you remove the ethical basis for these folks crossing the border for staging these operations. Then it becomes a Mehsed or Wazir making incursions into Kharoti territory for tribal gain.

3) If Pakistan stated in official policy that it would or could no longer police its border and openly arm folks that might cross the border, that would then create a possibility of FATA being viewed as Pakistan administered soil.

[khyaal]

I actually can and do comprimise on that point as I never disagreed that the lands belonged to Pashtuns/Afghan people and that the Panjab occupies and misuses the territory. Where I part ways with you is that the ground level reality: Just because land rightfully belongs to a people (e.g. Palestine to the Palestinians, Kurdistan to the Kurds) does not in a moral respect does not alter the reality of "might makes right" and poor leadership produces poor results. The Pashtuns of FATA cannot magically grab the UN, put a pen in their hand, and say redraw the lines. The same goes for the Pashtuns of the now occupied south of Afghanistan.

Why not. Intervention from FATA has been ratified by Pakistani official on this same ground which you just described here.

Just as the Israeilis forced a redrawing of the lines, this sort of guile and actual planning was required to return the sovreignty of the NWFP to the Afghan government of that time. The squandering of opportunities by former leaders, and utter lack of representative government by the communists and the secularists only deepened the divide between rural and city, Kabul and Peshawar, Kandahar and Quetta, Kharoti and Wazir.

It doesn't need opportunity. Pakistan being a muslim country has the moral duty to return the occupied land. You being pan islamist at least can make a case for your afghan muslim brother's right of ownership of the British confiscated land.

My point, son of Qais AbdurRashid, is that the government of Kabul failed in their duty of acquiring their land when it was theirs for the taking. Their moves of arming Kharoti against Wazir was stupid and backfired, resulting in the Faqir e Ipi being marginalized and the jirgas siding with Pakistan.

No. If you remember Pakistan had already returned some land to Iran during Bhutto regime. Afghan still have the right and Pakistan has a moral and islamic duty to return that land.

I do not think Pakistan has an official stance on the issue and attempts to conduct

Pakistan has the same official stand which you have repeated here. Just check it.

[Catya Sher]

Oh OF COURSE, toramana!
Now I remember you ! You were the one always complaining about being dragged out to the battlefronts from your palatial villa. You secretly thought Maulavi Jelaluddin was wasting his time attacking those forts.

Your turban wasn't tied correctly either, as I recall. It was an off-chartreuse, because you hated black turbans so much...

Well catch me up on what you've been doing since!

I'm on the edge of my carpet eagerly waiting to hear of your subsequent adventures.
Are you SURE that wasn't you in the PKK group photo?

[Toramana]

Khyaala tha mo wartha praikhwdai....oos warsara rakaga...da Lhoryan gwaray dair madaryan di....khyal kawa charai dai rana ra o na parzai....

[khyaal]

[QUOTE=BarakzaiAbdali;265160]It might be a valid point save two details

As Ron Paul notes, even a massively wealthy country like the US has issues manning, controlling, and securing its southern border. He noted that to expect Pakistan to seal theirs, with the intervening Suleiman Mt Range is absurd.

LOL. Iran too has border with Pakistan, why don't we see infilteration from their side into Pakistan though we have seen ISI trained Jandullah men intruding into Iran.

Once again, even M16 has pointed out that his "eye witness" evidence of maddrassahs in his word "brain washing" locals. I on the other hand still believe that there are religiously inclined folks who resort to what they view as defensive jihad of the Birmal Vally etc. To assume that these foot soldiers (average rural Pashtoons) are all state actors is unrealistic. That exactly is my point in all of this. I am saying that if one removes the stimulus (foreign occupation) you remove the ethical basis for these folks crossing the border for staging these operations. Then it becomes a Mehsed or Wazir making incursions into Kharoti territory for tribal gain.

Then you have made a case for the justification of drone attacks which pakistan considers as a violation of its territory.

If Pakistan stated in official policy that it would or could no longer police its border and openly arm folks that might cross the border, that would then create a possibility of FATA being viewed as Pakistan administered soil.

FATA is already Pakistan administered soil while according to the Partition principles British ceased all their agreement with FATA. The people of FATA had no written agreement with Pakistan. Abdur Rahim Mando Khel had presented an essay to the Paki members of parliament and I can post it here some time later in this forum.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I'll repeat my post again which you evade to reply.


Your whole logic revolves round one thing that Amanullah khan and Nadir shah's support by certain tribes from across the (illigitimate) Durand line gives an eternal right for Punjab to intervene in Afghan affairs from that land.

You still can't compromise with the fact that that land even back then actually belonged to Afghans, and the British had only defacto control over it. Same is the case with the present day Pakistan which has occupied this land and is using it against the state of Afghanistan.

If Pakistan officially considers the people of tribal agencies to be Afghans (which they are) and thus recognize their right to cross the border for the sake of intervention, Pakistan loses the very right to call FATA its own land.

You appear to be more reasonable than Toramana. You are correct in that on paper, the ruling power, the British made a Hong Kong style deal with Afghanistan. Unfortunately, imperial powers can alter designs and break treaties at their whim. They appeared to do just this when leaving the subcontinent, leaving destruction in their wake as they did in Kurdistan. As I noted, might makes right. That is the law of the world. Pakistan responded with brutal aerial force to the Kharoti incursions and killed many. They successfully put the ball in their court due to the inadequate and idiotic display put on by the Zahir Shah government. I noted this in the same discussion.

I agree that if Pakistan recognizes what you write, they lose sovreignty based on their lack of might, or ability to control the region. They then leave it to the whim of the local tribesmen.

I am going one step beyond you. I agree with Taizi's doctoral thesis assertions that Pakistan's manner of dealing with the Afghan conflict opened up the door to permanent reliance of the state on US aid.

I am saying that not only is Pakistan buying itself a world of pain by playing a dual policy of actually killing its own citizens for a combination of monetary gain and avoiding being "bombed into the stone age," they find themselves in absurd situation where they are telling FATA tribesmen that it is perfectly OK to attack NATO across the border, then they are surprised when these factions attack their supply lines and pipelines to NATO.

The conundrum is that Pakistan is telling that poor FATA boy to go kill the enemy based on his religious duty, but he is arming that individuals enemy with aerial and surface supply lines. Its the equivalent of telling your neighbor that you are going to help him with his burning house, but then throwing gasoline on it. Moreover, he is locked in this struggle due to the massive dependence on economic aid that Pakistan requires from the US.

This however does NOT VALIDATE the Karzai governments right to the land. This merely shows that the Pashtoons are occupied on both sides of the border.

[khyaal]

. I am saying that if one removes the stimulus (foreign occupation) you remove the ethical basis for these folks crossing the border for staging these operations. Then it becomes a Mehsed or Wazir making incursions into Kharoti territory for tribal gain.

.

Punjabis too are foreign and alien occupiers for us just like Moghals and Persians against which Pashtun(afghan) fought throughout their history. You forgot to remember the struggle of Great Bacha Khan, Khan Shaheed Abdul Samad Khan, Faqir Ipi, Sanober Hussain Kaka ji. Even Baloch consider Punjab a foreign and occupier force.

[khyaal]

If you are really a Pashtun then do some introspection and then tell me why are you are writing all this? Just due to your intellectual honesty you are debating with us and making a just case for your muslim Punjabi brothers. LOL. LOL. LOL.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Punjabis too are foreign and alien occupiers for us just like Moghals and Persians against which Pashtun(afghan) fought throughout their history. You forgot to remember the struggle of Great Bacha Khan, Khan Shaheed Abdul Samad Khan, Faqir Ipi, Sanober Hussain Kaka ji. Even Baloch consider Punjab a foreign and occupier force.

I do not recognize Bacha Khan and Shaheed Abdul Samad Khan in the same category as the Faqir due to their concurrence with Lenin, but certainly, I agree that these folks are occupants. However, I view Karzai and Fahim and Dostum as occupants as well.

Once again though, I am pointing out that at this juncture an overwhelming faction of the NWFP appears to want to stay with Pakistan. I argued vehemently about the fact that all Pashtoons are Afghans with a group of Khybar med students and recieved a series of responses from pure blood Pashtuns about how this identification was unpalatable to them.

I cannot advocate that these guys, who were youngins, and raised in that region, influenced by governmental policies, be chopped to pieces, killed, extorted, or forced to accept our rule. I also cannot tell the those fellows that they MUST accept Mr. Karzai as their president. If a truly representative Pashtoon government removes the occupier and seizes the region, I think it might become more palatable. It is unreasonable to destroy their lives for a land grab.

They are my brothers as you are. Just because I may disagree with you regarding secular vs ideological rule does not mean I will bloodily force you to accept me.

That is why I prefer NONINTERVENTIONALISM.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Hahahaha Khyaal, that one is for you...Son of Qais AbdurRashid The Afghan Prince has got good sense of humour as well apart from good knowledge about Pakistan's security and diplomacy....

Unlike yourself, with your continued lack of reliable information.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

[QUOTE=khyaal;265168]

It might be a valid point save two details



LOL. Iran too has border with Pakistan, why don't we see infilteration from their side into Pakistan though we have seen ISI trained Jandullah men intruding into Iran.



Then you have made a case for the justification of drone attacks which pakistan considers as a violation of its territory.



FATA is already Pakistan administered soil while according to the Partition principles British ceased all their agreement with FATA. The people of FATA had no written agreement with Pakistan. Abdur Rahim Mando Khel had presented an essay to the Paki members of parliament and I can post it here some time later in this forum.

Sadly, it is the same double game with the drone attacks. Pakistan appears to state they are anti drone, but they have made it apparent that they will say this to quell popular opinion.

However, a Pashtoon joining his brethren to oust an infidel invader is a fary cry from a drone worthy target. That, once again, is where I depart from you and the failed premedical student Toramana.