Barakzai: Where you stand

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The same old Paki-Centric stuff. Your are telling all historical events from a typical Punjabi perspective. Why don't you clearly say that Pakistan occupies its Muslim brother's historical land as direct inheretence from the British colonialists. Do you think this land along with Baloch territory was part of indian subcontinent which was gifted to Pakistan during the partition of India? Is it so difficult to comprehend?

OK, if that is what you are so flustered about: Here is the statement you want: the current country of Pakistan occupies and attempts to implement a program of urdubanization of the Pashtoon lands that are lands that belong truly and only to the Pashtoon (not the tajik, parsiwan, or Uzbeks of the north of Afghanistan).

Is that what this is all about?

However, I must add as my argument is attempting to show:
1) Afghanistan did itself massive disservices in first, giving up this land so easily. The Peshawar Barakzai Sardars were piss poor and even attempted to attack and kill their relative Dost Muhammad and thus create a ripe environment for the British to seize this land.
2) Afghanistan made insufficient and poorly planned attempts to regain their stupidly lost territory.
3) These poorly planned attempts allowed their opposition to create a strategic depth policy.
4) I refuse to force my brethren, which appeares to be a huge subsegment of the NWFP population, into tearing apart their lives and creating havoc and bloodshed in order to now undo the damage done by the Afghan and Pakistani states in creating such disunity. As an example, I refuse to shoot or promote the shooting of some simple pashtoon medical student from Khybar who views himself as a Pakistani. I refuse to destroy the fabric of this individuals life purely to satisfy what now appears to be a pipe dream.
5) I refuse to admit the utterly stupid notion that any segment of Pashtun tribal or rural society functions on a secular level day in and day out. How often do you see Hindus in jirgas in any of the tribes as far as Arghandeb to the vale of Peshawar.
6) I refuse to enforce ideas that the Pashtoons are uncomfortable with on them, whether they are religious extremism or secular extremism. That is left to their discretion.
7) I refuse to admit that Hamid Karzai is more representative of the rural ground level Pashtoon than, say Abdul Salam Zaeef.
8) I refuse to admit that the rule of those that are cowardly in the face of defending their people (Taj ANDERSEN, Karzai, Achekzai) or brutalize their people (Najib) is more beneficial for pashtoons than their brothers.

[Catya Sher]

Barakzai wrote earlier in this thread: "I was in attendence at his nephew Yama's wedding in Virginia. Yama, a good-for-nothing, much to my chagrin, is now head of the Afghan intelligence agency and was cited in the NY Times recently as having been given this position due to nepotism*"

What do you recall about him, if anything>
How was he a good for nothing, specifically, or is that just a general impression.

Is this guy still the head of it? I don't know anything about him or his appointment.
I'm curious.
Are there reports about what he has done during his tenure there?

That was interesting that you crossed his path way back when.

[Toramana]

Once again, you are imposing a view you have of Islamists onto what you believe that goes on in my head. Unfortunately, you show that you are hardly scientific, (I doubt your credentials there and predict you were a failure at obtaining higher professional credentialing and are likely one of those folks consigned to irrelevent bench side lab work).

You never asked any simple questions of me. Instead you made a series of incorrect and ahistorical statements such as: Bilal never got married and Bilal was not allowed to go to jihad and turn out to be wrong or at least unfair in your historical representation. For instance: Khalid Bin Walid was dismissed and relieved of duty by Omar as well and called back from the battle front. This was in the same time and turn. However, it is useless debating with you becase you definitively prove you are prone to generating imprecise and inaccurate information. Debating with you is like debating with a Glenn Beck.

Therefore, we rely on your previously inaccurate statements to say that your words have a low impact factor, your sources are incredulous, and you generally show a low aptitude in history of any sort.

However, anyone who seriously reads early caliphate history will recognize that there were errors of judgement. I cited the Battle of Siffin as an example before. We also understand that Umayyad nepotism, whether the officials were qualified or not, did begin under Uthman. We certainly recognize that the decisions of Abu Musa Al Asharee in negotiating on Ali's behalf were lacking in some parts and the classical authors also state this.

I agree that lionizing that period of history without seriously critiquing fateful decisions is an Islamist practice. There is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing the pitfalls of certain decisions made during that time period, whether they be the possibly premature invasion of Iran or the war of the factions of Hajjaj and bin Zubair made fateful decisions that reverberate into today.

Hahaha, good chicanery....By the way, do you play magic with the same tact as you play circuis tricks?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Barakzai wrote earlier in this thread: "I was in attendence at his nephew Yama's wedding in Virginia. Yama, a good-for-nothing, much to my chagrin, is now head of the Afghan intelligence agency and was cited in the NY Times recently as having been given this position due to nepotism*"

What do you recall about him, if anything>
How was he a good for nothing, specifically, or is that just a general impression.

Is this guy still the head of it? I don't know anything about him or his appointment.
I'm curious.
Are there reports about what he has done during his tenure there?

That was interesting that you crossed his path way back when.

Yeah it was in 2004 in Richmond. He was marrying the daughter of the Fofalzai Ayyubi family (her granddad was the former ambassador to Iran during Zahir Shahs time).

They married in Richmond. At the time Yama was attending Georgetown University attempting to achieve a degree in Security Studies. Scheuer is actually now in the same department teaching.

He had grown up in Quetta and was generally up this point an unreliable and uneducated individual who spent most of his time in the border tea shops with the likes of Sherzai, where men grumbled about the power they lost when the muj fighters were ousted by the Taliban in Kandahar . He was very rude really. He felt threatened for some odd reason by American born Pashtoons. He lectured these folks about how, now that the Fofalzai were back in power, they ought not to dare utilize the surname Khan.

He has minimal qualifications to occupy such a high level intelligence job. I was hoping the world would recognize this one day after meeting him. My wish was fulfilled in this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ld/karzai.html

[Khidr]

Barakzai,

So the crux of what you say is this:

You claim that Talibs are a more “organic” production of Pashtun society than puppets like Karzai and secularists’? Fair enough.
You feel that a Talib run Afghanistan will provide for a more pure and natural evolution of Pashtun society politically and socially, than a western backed government?

Yes, the Taliban’s conservative yet Pan-Wahabi Ideology may not be as alien superficially to the traditional Pashtun rural culture compared to Karzai’s or secularists. However, do you seriously think that the Taliban ideology, if successful in winning in Pashtunistan and Afghanistan, will not pose a significantly greater threat to the traditional tribal-village-khan based Pashtun culture?

I think a ‘natural evolution of society’ is not possible and has never been possible. With the exception of the creation of Abdali empire, but since then, most of the Pashtun political and social evolution has been foreign “induced” if not foreign directed.

I see this as a choice between two evils, and I have reconcilled the Islam that I follow to be independent of political outlook. I see the Taliban as a bigger threat to my identity (I'm not Pashtun).

[khyaal]

Your whole logic revolves round one thing that Amanullah khan and Nadir shah's support by certain tribes from across the (illigitimate) Durand line gives an eternal right for Punjab to intervene in Afghan affairs from that land.

You still can't compromise with the fact that that land even back then actually belonged to Afghans, and the British had only defacto control over it. Same is the case with the present day Pakistan which has occupied this land and is using it against the state of Afghanistan.

If Pakistan officially considers the people of tribal agencies to be Afghans (which they are) and thus recognize their right to cross the border for the sake of intervention, Pakistan loses the very right to call FATA its own land.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Hahaha, good chicanery....By the way, do you play magic with the same tact as you play circuis tricks?

In what way, by having to repeat myself slooowly and again and again so you, can understand what I have been saying all along?

Besides, I think David Blaine and the Circus both have, generally, well thought out tricks and illusions.

You on the other side of things, have a poor slight of hand, making glaring mistakes like not knowing the basics of the Afghan tribal heirarchy, making massive mistakes when it comes to simple elements of Islamic history that even the most unobservant Muslim knows.

So I far prefer being in the circus to the utterly foolish dream world you have created in your brain.

I still view you as an avid interventionalist that is far more willing to send others to the frontlines to die in an attempt to apply ideas that will eventually produce bloody results for all sides.

[khyaal]

Barakzai,

So the crux of what you say is this:

You claim that Talibs are a more “organic” production of Pashtun society than puppets like Karzai and secularists’? Fair enough.
You feel that a Talib run Afghanistan will provide for a more pure and natural evolution of Pashtun society politically and socially, than a western backed government?

Yes, the Taliban’s conservative yet Pan-Wahabi Ideology may not be as alien superficially to the traditional Pashtun rural culture compared to Karzai’s or secularists. However, do you seriously think that the Taliban ideology, if successful in winning in Pashtunistan and Afghanistan, will not pose a significantly greater threat to the traditional tribal-village-khan based Pashtun culture?

I think a ‘natural evolution of society’ is not possible and has never been possible. With the exception of the creation of Abdali empire, but since then, most of the Pashtun political and social evolution has been foreign “induced” if not foreign directed.

I see this as a choice between two evils, and I have reconcilled the Islam that I follow to be independent of political outlook. I see the Taliban as a bigger threat to my identity (I'm not Pashtun).

Khidr! Don't engage with him in Taliban discussion which he will try to reduce it to moral issues rather than political ones.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Barakzai,

So the crux of what you say is this:

You claim that Talibs are a more “organic” production of Pashtun society than puppets like Karzai and secularists’? Fair enough.
You feel that a Talib run Afghanistan will provide for a more pure and natural evolution of Pashtun society politically and socially, than a western backed government?

Yes, the Taliban’s conservative yet Pan-Wahabi Ideology may not be as alien superficially to the traditional Pashtun rural culture compared to Karzai’s or secularists. However, do you seriously think that the Taliban ideology, if successful in winning in Pashtunistan and Afghanistan, will not pose a significantly greater threat to the traditional tribal-village-khan based Pashtun culture?

I think a ‘natural evolution of society’ is not possible and has never been possible. With the exception of the creation of Abdali empire, but since then, most of the Pashtun political and social evolution has been foreign “induced” if not foreign directed.

I see this as a choice between two evils, and I have reconcilled the Islam that I follow to be independent of political outlook. I see the Taliban as a bigger threat to my identity (I'm not Pashtun).

I respect your statement in terms of recognizing my message. In regard to your response to this statement, this is a debate worth having. You have captured in essence what I have been trying to say.

Its sad that the nonpashtoon is the only one to grasp what I have been attempting to say all along.

[Toramana]

In what way, by having to repeat myself slooowly and again and again so you, a failed applicant, can understand what I have been saying all along?

Besides, I think David Blaine and the Circus both have, generally, well thought out tricks and illusions.

You on the other side of things, have a poor slight of hand, making glaring mistakes like not knowing the basics of the Afghan tribal heirarchy, making massive mistakes when it comes to simple elements of Islamic history that even the most unobservant Muslim knows.

So I far prefer being in the circus to the utterly foolish dream world you have created in your brain.

I still view you as an avid interventionalist that is far more willing to send others to the frontlines to die in an attempt to apply ideas that will eventually produce bloody results for all sides.

hahahah, ok, ok, good skills at rhetoric probably learnt from Allama Qadiri...By the way how is the weather back in Mandi Bahauudin...Do you call home frequently?

[Khidr]

"Parsiwaan,"

Some friendly advice:

I’m sure the stupidity and irony of someone calling himself a “Parsiwan” and labelling a Pashtun a “Paki” and then calling himself true Afghan, is not lost on anyone, especially on this board! LOL

Advocating Loy-Afghanistan does not make you an Afghan in the eyes of Pashtun. Stop being a Ghulam Bacha. Gone with the wind are the days of 1950's and 1960's where being a subserviant Ghulam Bacha to Pashtun Nationalism meant you could move up the social ladder in Kabul.

The only thing that in the eyes of Pashtuns Nationalists makes you their equal is Islam, and based on what you said, you’re not even a Muslim, correct?

[Catya Sher]

Toramana, were you REALLY in Operation Enduring Freedom?

Why don't we know much about you, as the Brilliant 20 year old Fahd cleverly brought out yesterday -!
It's Ok, no one's going to taunt you.

Why are you jokin' around rather than answering the charges leveled by Barakzai here?

Barakzai thanks for the info and the link.
That is SOME LIST of Karzai relatives.
They probably are colluding to hatch a plot to rename the country to Karzaistan...

Quick! Somebody get them out of office before they accomplish this, and send the entire clan back where they belong running their restaurants in Baltimore and other sundry endeavors!

I'd like to follow up on this Yama guy though. That is so strange...

[Toramana]

"Parsiwaan,"

Some friendly advice:

I’m sure the stupidity and irony of someone calling himself a “Parsiwan” and labelling a Pashtun a “Paki” and then calling himself true Afghan, is not lost on anyone, especially on this board! LOL

Advocating Loy-Afghanistan does not make you an Afghan in the eyes of Pashtun. Stop being a Ghulam Bacha. Gone with the wind are the days of 1950's and 1960's where being a subserviant Ghulam Bacha to Pashtun Nationalism meant you could move up the social ladder in Kabul.

The only thing that in the eyes of Pashtuns Nationalists makes you their equal is Islam, and based on what you said, you’re not even a Muslim, correct?

Khidr didnt you post it in the wrong thread by the way?

[khyaal]

If on the other hand Pakistan assumes FATA as its own territory then the world will no longer accept their justification of these ISI sponsored terrorists to be some non-state actors .

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Your whole logic revolves round one thing that Amanullah khan and Nadir shah's support by certain tribes from across the (illigitimate) Durand line gives an eternal right for Punjab to intervene in Afghan affairs from that land.

You still can't compromise with the fact that that land even back then actually belonged to Afghans, and the British had only defacto control over it. Same is the case with the present day Pakistan which has occupied this land and is using it against the state of Afghanistan.

If Pakistan officially considers the people of tribal agencies to be Afghans (which they are) and thus recognize their right to cross the border for the sake of intervention, Pakistan loses the very right to call FATA its own land.

I actually can and do comprimise on that point as I never disagreed that the lands belonged to Pashtuns/Afghan people and that the Panjab occupies and misuses the territory. Where I part ways with you is that the ground level reality: Just because land rightfully belongs to a people (e.g. Palestine to the Palestinians, Kurdistan to the Kurds) does not in a moral respect does not alter the reality of "might makes right" and poor leadership produces poor results. The Pashtuns of FATA cannot magically grab the UN, put a pen in their hand, and say redraw the lines. The same goes for the Pashtuns of the now occupied south of Afghanistan.

Just as the Israeilis forced a redrawing of the lines, this sort of guile and actual planning was required to return the sovreignty of the NWFP to the Afghan government of that time. The squandering of opportunities by former leaders, and utter lack of representative government by the communists and the secularists only deepened the divide between rural and city, Kabul and Peshawar, Kandahar and Quetta, Kharoti and Wazir.

My point, son of Qais AbdurRashid, is that the government of Kabul failed in their duty of acquiring their land when it was theirs for the taking. Their moves of arming Kharoti against Wazir was stupid and backfired, resulting in the Faqir e Ipi being marginalized and the jirgas siding with Pakistan.



I do not think Pakistan has an official stance on the issue and attempts to conduct