Afghan women leave the country in fear of Taliban return

[IamDZJ]

how disappointing. Screw the Taliban but if we all run away from fear of being killed then who will take responsibility for those afghans who don't have the choices we do?? Instead of living a safe ordinary life in the west, living in Afghanistan to make A difference sounds whole lot more appealing. If you are meant to die, you will die no matter where you live.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

GOE, what do you know about Pashtun women in Afghanistan? If you are a real Pashtun then you shouldn't talk to them. So your knowledge comes from so called propaganda too Plus, sitting comfy in a certain Western country (not Germany:-), going from time to time for holiday to Kabul Spa or thinking what colour of patu suits you better don't make you reliable source of information about Afghanistan.

You are awesome!!! lol

[RevolutionThroughReason]

GOE got PWNED

[BarakzaiAbdali]

GOE, what do you know about Pashtun women in Afghanistan? If you are a real Pashtun then you shouldn't talk to them. So your knowledge comes from so called propaganda too Plus, sitting comfy in a certain Western country (not Germany:-), going from time to time for holiday to Kabul Spa or thinking what colour of patu suits you better don't make you reliable source of information about Afghanistan.

As always Yasmeenah, the matter is more complex.
1. Selaay Ghaffar and Miss Kakar are also dual passport holders and are perhaps more likely to frequent Kabul's spas and Americas for that matter.
2. On the one hand, the God given rights that women ought to enjoy according to humanistic laws and the laws revealed by God himself and enjoined by his Prophet is a sad state... but as disconcerting is the utilization by Petreus and others of women as a pawn in the game to basically force the hand of a war weary public in Europe and America.

Thanks to Mullah Assange of the Islamic Emirates of Wikileaks (joking) we now know with 100% accuracy that Miss Clinton, Miss Rice, Commander Petreus and others are utilizing the womens rights issues to basically do a bait and switch:
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/CIA_report...e,_11_Mar_2010

Its as if they are saying: Oh man, you are against continuing our presence and our permanent bases? Well what's the deal? Hate women? Oh, its because you dont think our interventionalism is going to help things? Suuuure, so you hate women huh?

Here is the exact quote from the Red Cell Memo:
"Afghan women could serve as ideal messengers in humanizing the ISAF role in combating the Taliban because of women’s ability to speak personally and credibly about their experiences under the Taliban, their aspirations for the future, and their fears of a Taliban

victory. Outreach initiatives that create media opportunities for Afghan women to share their stories with French, German, and other European women could help to overcome pervasive skepticism among women in Western Europe toward the ISAF mission."

Isn't that a little like the following parable:
A man sees his his neighbor abusing his children. The man has a confirmed reputation for being the lawyer for the Arab (or African) guy 4 doors down who gives him a free trip every year to the Bahamas and free electricity. That Arab (or African) guy gives his wife daily beat downs but our man is willing to look the other way (after all free electricity allows him to set aside some more cash for a home cinema center). However, the neighbor that beats his kids is a whole different matter. He's sitting on some prime real estate. With the neighbor out of the picture that land is ripe for the picking. The abused kids wont get as many beat downs as they usually do... they'll be fine at the local orphanage and our man will be drinking a nice frosty beverage on the deck of his new house. Everyone wins!

Would you trust such a man? Isn't it more than a little reprehensible that he claims to have the best interests of the abused children in mind but is using them as a pawn?

3. Miss Kakar and Miss Ghaffar are as misinformed of history as are Miss Clinton and Miss Rice. Perhaps they ought to reread the history of the progression of womens rights in the Americas and Europe before attempting to cram it down the throats of the Afghans and generate blow back that will only set back their cause. It was a 400 year long odyssey from the burned witches in Salem to the passage of the 19th amendment... yet somehow they think they can write a "for dummy's" manual for Afghan men??? They might think twice then about ignoring the fact that black men who were former slaves could vote and hold high governmental seats theoretically decades before the 19th amendment was even thought of. Whats more ironic is that it did not take foreign guns to catalyze this evolution of soceital mores.

[Friend]

As always Yasmeenah, the matter is more complex.
1. Selaay Ghaffar and Miss Kakar are also dual passport holders and are perhaps more likely to frequent Kabul's spas and Americas for that matter.
2. On the one hand, the God given rights that women ought to enjoy according to humanistic laws and the laws revealed by God himself and enjoined by his Prophet is a sad state... but as disconcerting is the utilization by Petreus and others of women as a pawn in the game to basically force the hand of a war weary public in Europe and America.

Thanks to Mullah Assange of the Islamic Emirates of Wikileaks (joking) we now know with 100% accuracy that Miss Clinton, Miss Rice, Commander Petreus and others are utilizing the womens rights issues to basically do a bait and switch:
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/CIA_report...e,_11_Mar_2010

Its as if they are saying: Oh man, you are against continuing our presence and our permanent bases? Well what's the deal? Hate women? Oh, its because you dont think our interventionalism is going to help things? Suuuure, so you hate women huh?

Here is the exact quote from the Red Cell Memo:
"Afghan women could serve as ideal messengers in humanizing the ISAF role in combating the Taliban because of women’s ability to speak personally and credibly about their experiences under the Taliban, their aspirations for the future, and their fears of a Taliban

victory. Outreach initiatives that create media opportunities for Afghan women to share their stories with French, German, and other European women could help to overcome pervasive skepticism among women in Western Europe toward the ISAF mission."

Isn't that a little like the following parable:
A man sees his his neighbor abusing his children. The man has a confirmed reputation for being the lawyer for the Arab (or African) guy 4 doors down who gives him a free trip every year to the Bahamas and free electricity. That Arab (or African) guy gives his wife daily beat downs but our man is willing to look the other way (after all free electricity allows him to set aside some more cash for a home cinema center). However, the neighbor that beats his kids is a whole different matter. He's sitting on some prime real estate. With the neighbor out of the picture that land is ripe for the picking. The abused kids wont get as many beat downs as they usually do... they'll be fine at the local orphanage and our man will be drinking a nice frosty beverage on the deck of his new house. Everyone wins!

Would you trust such a man? Isn't it more than a little reprehensible that he claims to have the best interests of the abused children in mind but is using them as a pawn?

3. Miss Kakar and Miss Ghaffar are as misinformed of history as are Miss Clinton and Miss Rice. Perhaps they ought to reread the history of the progression of womens rights in the Americas and Europe before attempting to cram it down the throats of the Afghans and generate blow back that will only set back their cause. It was a 400 year long odyssey from the burned witches in Salem to the passage of the 19th amendment... yet somehow they think they can write a "for dummy's" manual for Afghan men??? They might think twice then about ignoring the fact that black men who were former slaves could vote and hold high governmental seats theoretically decades before the 19th amendment was even thought of. Whats more ironic is that it did not take foreign guns to catalyze this evolution of soceital mores.

Exactly... This is what they do and this what pak army did in pakistan to legitimise operations.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

While Barakzai's argument about how the plight of women is being exploited has merit; , it doesn't discredit that women are facing a legitimate concern for their plight. The misuse or abuse of the the scenario regarding the injustices done to wome; does not negate that these injustices are real, that these concerns are genuine and the consequences are impeding. This is is mutually exclusive of the motivations for as Barakzai would say "war hawking".

And just because war hawking happens; is not in any way shape or form a meritable reason to disregard the impeding negative impacts the Taliban would have on women.

[faye]

what a load of non sense.
yameenah you must be happy being a mouthpiece of the empire when propagating their partylines.

seriously, you whine like a big baby and jump up and down like a 2 year old having a tantrum, every time someone says a thing you disagree with.
do you have proof that this is propaganda?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

While Barakzai's argument about how the plight of women is being exploited has merit; , it doesn't discredit that women are facing a legitimate concern for their plight. The misuse or abuse of the the scenario regarding the injustices done to wome; does not negate that these injustices are real, that these concerns are genuine and the consequences are impeding. This is is mutually exclusive of the motivations for as Barakzai would say "war hawking".

And just because war hawking happens; is not in any way shape or form a meritable reason to disregard the impeding negative impacts the Taliban would have on women.

I dont disagree that internal reflection has to supplement criticism of warhawking.

My issue centers around the fact that all of these articles generally leave a mental ellipses (...) at the end of the discussion and aren't targeting the place where self reflection and information dissemination needs to occur (ie. the region itself).

Why I think this falls into propaganda and basically fulfills the goals of the Red Cell Memo is that its target is a Western audience. A decade ago Afghan womens issues was but a blip or a byline and now, whenever the polls indicate a sagging of popular support these articles start to escalate in their appearance in western dailys.

Soldat actually provided a reasonable article not too long ago where a tribe in Khost I believe punished the local Taliban. No where does it mention that they needed NATO to do it for them. The point being, this is an internal Afghan affair that the Afghans themselves, rural and urban can regulate.

Once again though I agree with you about the conversation of rights related to possible outcomes. That being said though, why just women rights? Why not human rights? The country has evidence of abuse of all disenfranchesized parties from those near local warlords to children to inter ethnic strife.

Generally the evolution of rights in developed nations appears to follow the motif of:
Establish rule of law ---> Trickle down effect ---> The strngest segment of society secure rights and begin to dessiminate it.

E.g In the US:
Establishing self governance ---> Constitutional law applies to the land ---> White male votes ---> conditions become ripe for emancipation of blacks ---> Black men vote ---> Men support Anthony and other suffregetes to assist in augmenting womens rights ---> Women gain property and voting rights


Or in the Caliphate era:
Establishing rule of law ---> Muslims banish practices of jahiliyaah ---> law effecting men/women in terms of spiritual rights are promulgated ---> The peninsula is secured ---> Ayesha and others step forward to safegaurd the status of women (e.g. refer to hadith where she rebukes men for beginning to whisper of ceremonial impurities of praying near women or her own warrior status in the triumverate to secure justice for Uthman).

Kakar and Ghaffoor on the other hand are not targeting an Afghan audience but are instead attempting to (and they admit this openly) pull NATO into the equation.

The outcome will be either enforced Ataturkization style implementation of a subset of foreign laws or they will end up losing their desired support and face a reactionary element in society.

The phenomena can be seen in Turkey where blowback manifested itself and the military, full of militant secularists, bloodily subverted the aspirations of the people in the 90s. Even several decades could not avert the blowback effect.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

For that matter its highly immoral for Kakar and Ghaffoor to demand that Western powers sacrifice their blood and treasure for a goal that has no national security benefit whatsoever for them.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

a rural tribe who have arms and weapons of their own is a little different than unarmed women homie.

[khushal]

While Barakzai's argument about how the plight of women is being exploited has merit; , it doesn't discredit that women are facing a legitimate concern for their plight. The misuse or abuse of the the scenario regarding the injustices done to wome; does not negate that these injustices are real, that these concerns are genuine and the consequences are impeding. This is is mutually exclusive of the motivations for as Barakzai would say "war hawking".

And just because war hawking happens; is not in any way shape or form a meritable reason to disregard the impeding negative impacts the Taliban would have on women.

it does not negate it but using the misfortune of others as propaganda is immoral. the afghan government itself has passed laws against women rights. In the words of malalai joya "NATO has pushed afghan women from the frying pan into the fire."

[RevolutionThroughReason]

it does not negate it but using the misfortune of others as propaganda is immoral. the afghan government itself has passed laws against women rights. In the words of malalai joya "NATO has pushed afghan women from the frying pan into the fire."

That still is not a justification to shift focus away from injustices done to them.

[faye]

there are reports of thousands of female health workers being trained or working in afghanistan and more females being educated. over 2,000 midwifes alone.
i think unknownprince was bragging that the taliban allowed 200 females to study medicine.
i don't agree with the invasion of afghanistan but there are some good and many bad things which have occured there.
these women need to be concerned if the taliban might return to power and the government, whoever it might turn out to be, does not safeguard their rights.
you, who already live in the west, in safety, should be supportive.

[khushal]

there are reports of thousands of female health workers being trained or working in afghanistan and more females being educated. over 2,000 midwifes alone.
i think unknownprince was bragging that the taliban allowed 200 females to study medicine.
i don't agree with the invasion of afghanistan but there are some good and many bad things which have occured there.
these women need to be concerned if the taliban might return to power and the government, whoever it might turn out to be, does not safeguard their rights.
you, who already live in the west, in safety, should be supportive.

they put the 2000 midwifes their so they could deliver babies that are born deformed from the depleted uranium used by NATO. how humanitarian. why are the afghans not supporting this?

[faye]

like i said, many bad but some good. the educational encouragement and assistance is not necessarily all from you americans.

take that up with your government khushal. the yanks, the brits and the israelis are the ones said to be doing this crime of uranium and d.u. bombing.

anyway why is a woman the loudest voice, speaking out on behalf of afghanistan?
where's all the big butch honourable men? apart from dr miraki, of course.