Were Taleban that bad?

[Shayesta]

yet Pukhtoons are forced to confront and apologize for theirs.

Not apologize to others for it, but to get rid of it ourselves. Who is suffering today because of Taliban? Us Pukhtoons? Or other ethnic groups? I don't even think non-Pukhtoons are dying for our apology for as far as I know, all the know is they will never let North fall under Pukhtoon hands again. Ever.

Is it you speaking as a humanistic individual, or your personal relations with these Taajiks that cloud your mind?

Tajiks were my relatives even a year or two ago, when I hadn't even visited Afghanistan yet, nor had read enough about it's history and politics. And I think every single person is ousting his/her own opinion as an individual, it's again us who single them out as 'lovers', 'sold-outs', 'liars', etcetera. So yes, I am speaking as an individual, nor I ever claimed I am speaking on behalf of entire Afghanistan, Pukhtoons, or even Tajiks.

They malign any Pukhtoon response or sentiment, even the non-violent peaceful ones like Baacha Khan as dubious closet Hindus.

They don't have any argument whatsoever to back up their claims of Bacha Khan being a traitor, they just don't have it. Even if they have then it's anything but valid for anyone who does know about Bacha Khan. I know of many Pakistani Pukhtoons who will blame Tajiks for everything in Afghanistan, but Punjabis are their 'brothers' for them while we both know which group has harmed us the most as a 'nation'; Tajiks, or Punjabis.

Any attempt by a group or people that try to impose their will on Afghanistan while undermining the majority of the Afghan nation, based on whom this state was founded, is illegal and morally wrong.

And this is exactly what I keep asking again and again; What are non-Pukhtoons in Afghanistan imposing on us Pukhtoons!?

The Parsiwan initially counted on the Pakistanis, but when they realized that Pakis are more likely to support Pukhtoon centric groups like Hekmatyaars, all love for Pakis was lost.

And same happened with Hekmatyar when Pakistan even left his hands and held Omar's instead, it's not just Tajiks. According to Tajiks themselves their biggest hatred against Pakistani government came when some Pakistanis themselves joined Taliban and tried to rule over Afghanistan as a Pakistani.

They were a religious movement, but even then the nationalist Taajiks, Hazaras, and Uzbeks despised them for one fact only, they were mostly comprised from Pukhtoon regions and viewed as a Pukhtoon entity.

Pukhtoons have been ruling this very same Afghanistan ever since 1747, how come only during Taliban era they were thinking 'Pukhtoon-Tajik'? Even Daud Khan was for Loy Afghanistan, yet many Tajiks got respect for him. And Tajiks by the way themselves welcomed Taliban in Kabul, it were Mazar and later on Panjsher which didn't Taliban on their soil and for Panjsher and Massoud in particular the reason has been that Taliban wasn't made out of Pukhtoons only.

Though the Taliban themselves claimed Islam as their motivating and driving factor, not Pukhoton nationalism.

Then what was forcing Pukhto on whole nation all about? What was isolation of women all about? What was mass-discrimination against Hazaras all about? Or is all this just a lie and nothing more?

Even then, as an Islamic entity, it wasn’t enough for the Taajiks and Uzbeks to accept the Talibans as brothers in deen.

They actually did, you should have seen Kabul back then. Though even they could claim Pukhtoons didn't accept Massoud or even Rabbani as their brothers in 'deen', though it all comes down to all of them being the same sold-outs. All of them.

They had their own ethnic and national interests in mind that came before Islamic interests.

And Pukhtoons didn't?

I can understand Hazaras objections to the Talibs, they were Shia, but why did the Sunni Taajiks/Uzbeks disprove the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan under a Pukhtoon amir-ul-momeenin?

Someone who cares for Islam doesn't care for sects and since you yourself (indirectly) claim Taliban did make a difference between Shias and Sunnis, it only proves they did not stand up for what they claimed to; Islam.

There were Tajiks and Uzbeks from the countries of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan midst the Talibs....even today.

Those Taliban want an Islamic Uzbekistan and Tajikistan and they are being opposed in their own country by their own people, they didn't flee from Afghanistan to Pakistan for nothing.

After the invasion of Afghanistan and the subsequent fall of the Taliban from Kabul the Taajiks and their coalition walked out of the Loy Jirga 3 times, what was it?

Back then Afghanistan had just gotten out of another war, another war which made every ethnic realize that blood is blood indeed. Everyone in Kabul was full of hate, not to mention those Panjsheris who returned from Panjsher to Kabul after fall of Taliban and who controlled entire Kabul right then and there. Though I wouldn't want to see links regarding them walking out three times, yet situation has changed drastically in Kabul.

The national anthem being in Pukhto, and a Pukhtoon being recognized as the leader of the government.

Even Pukhtoons have threatened during the elections that only a Pukhtoon should win, remember?

They did many other things, one of them was pissing on the poster of Ahmed Shah Baba in Kabul stadium.

And what's your source to that? Assumptions? Or stories? People were even spreading lies like Baba's poster is taken off and replaced by Massoud's poster at the Ghazi stadium while it's still there! Or that you will get beaten up if you speak a word of Pukhto in Kabul while starting from the airport to it's shopping-centers and you name it, you will hear as much Pukhto as you would hear Dari. During my months' long stay I didn't speak anything else but Pukhto. And hey, I wasn't beaten up!

All that cozy love you feel from fellow Taajiks in Afghanistan towards Pukhtoons now, this Pukhtoon friendly Afghanistan you find today.

This is what you get from a country in physical war since decades, and mental war since centuries. That's why I will keep repeating not to make assumptions regarding entire Afghanistan if you never have visited it in first place.

Without American support they couldn’t move, and American support was in the hands Zalmay Khalilzad, against whom the Parsiwan did everything possible to weaken is resolve.

I would love to know what Tajiks exactly did to weaken him? And I think you are forgetting another man who made Afghanistan go one step ahead in terms of economy and was even supported by non-Pukhtoons of Afghanistan as well; Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai.

But those that did after the fall of the Taliban, and in some cases still do, are Taajiks. like the recent incident involving a girl from Quetta on sites like YouTube to shame and to humiliate Pukhtoons.

So a Tajik went all the way to Quetta just because he wanted to insult Pukhtoons? Interesting! Moreover, there are enough ridiculous videos posted of Pekhawri girls by Pukhtoons themselves. Heck, just take Pekhawri films for example and look at the joke they make themselves look like, you wouldn't even need a Tajik or Punjabi for that!

but their best and brightest consider Pukhtoon subhuman degenerates with no culture or class. Pashtun-i-koon or Afghan-e-ghoul as they put it.

Or how many of them are being portrayed as 'benamoos', 'bachabaz', 'watanforosh', etcetera.

Most of them love Afghanistan, especially one where the Pukhtoon question no longer applies. Many of them would like to merge it with Watan Iran, as part of the province of Khorasan.

They do want better relations with Iran and Tajikistan but it's not true that they want to merge because they themselves know developed areas like Iran and Tajikistan will never want to merge with them seeing their situation; Unless, economically, they come to the same level.

Just type Pashto, Pashtun, Pukhto and Pukhtoon in YouTube to see the love of Taajiks and Parsiwan for you.

A few e-people who keep making continues accounts to make hatred for Pukhtoons look massive doesn't mean the entire nation is like that. Even I can forward you Youtube links where Tajiks and even Hazaras call for unity, or even refer you to people in real life who call for unity. I remember a Youtube user named Pokhton, who is also a member here, once PM'ed me and told me Hazaras started this e-war between Tajiks and Pukhtoons. And exactly same was claimed by a few others; Also in this forum.

Many of us, have fought for whatever little pride or dignity you enjoy today when it comes to your ethnicity.

If age had anything to do with knowledge then it wouldn't be me telling my parents about how and why we lost Pakhtunkhwa, or what Bacha Khan stood for, or what happened to Pukhtoons in North, or what the seven Hezbs stood for, etcetera. All they know is Afghanistan is under fire because of Russians and foreign interference, that's it! They don't know the cause or anything else for it, and same I have experienced with many other Afghan parents.

Hope you understand some of my concerns now.

I do, one million percent. Though I also know how all this started to happen. In fact, you tell me, how do you think all this started? You as someone from Pakhtunkhwa have to listen to all these negativities against Pukhtoons on Youtube, while I have to hear it both ways from Pukhtoons and Tajiks and all I can do is ignore both so I don't end up insulting either part of me.

[Mina]

Guys, is there any use arguing which ethnic bares how much hatred? There's a reason why Pakistani Pashtoons 're worried for Afghanistan and that reason is whatever they 've heard about 2001. But there's also a reason for Pashtoons of Afghanistan to stick up for Tajiks 'cause if we start being fare, one has to wonder why all Afghan ethnics 'll choose Tajiks over Pashtoons? What reason do all other ethnics 've of disliking Pashtoon politicians? No matter how much we argue and disagree, its very clear that this generation has woken up, and they 've woken up in every single ethnic. Everyone has got their own reason and obvious we 'll pick and choose for ourselves what's right and what's not, so 'll they.

[Mina]

And this is why I'm more than prepared for a separation. Its not my dream, but atleast we won't be a part of a country where we feel we 're being oppressed, isolated, discriminated against, and what not. Nor 'll we be accused of anything such since our nation 'll be formed by our own people ONLY. I completely understand why Tajiks would want a separation but I'm worried for them that IF form a Khorasan with Uzbaks and Hazaras then their situation might even be much different since we all know how hungry Uzbak warlords 're for power, and how Hazaras keep making demands after demands.

[Toramana]

Mina,

Afghanistan will never break apart. You contradict yourself in talking about Afghan unity. You seem to elevate the Tajiks, but not the Uzbeks or Hazaras. The facts speak volumes about the matter. The Tajiks are also supporting the foreigners even more so than Hazaras and Uzbeks. I haven't heard of that many Hazara or Uzbek warlords taking up mansions around Afghanistan. Dostum (one of the most corrupt war mongers) even keeps his distance from the foreigners!!!

You have to have one standard for everyone. All Afghans have differences, but we are never supposed to support foreigners. this is the most unwise decision to make actually.

What a sold you and your other buddies like Maiwand are completely devoid of any dignity and self-respect that a human (let alone a Pashtun) should have. We can well see how you promote General Hamid Guli here.

[Toramana]

I stand for my people because I believe to survive with respect and dignity a people must rely on themselves. At the same time, I am being a realist and pragmatist and know who are foes and friends of my people and what pattern of alliance may secure the long-term interest of my people.

[akbarkhan]

I stand for my people because I believe to survive with respect and dignity a people must rely on themselves. At the same time, I am being a realist and pragmatist and know who are foes and friends of my people and what pattern of alliance may secure the long-term interest of my people.

Toramana,

Your people are standing against the tyranny of global powers, I didn't catch that - where did you say you stand?

[Wrayun]

Shayesta,

And this is exactly what I keep asking again and again; What are non-Pukhtoons in Afghanistan imposing on us Pukhtoons!?

They are imposing on Pukhtoons their will, and currently that is done through politics (before that through guns and shells). I'm sure Karzai can vouch for that, being constantly accused of fraud and Pukhtoon centric, pro-Paki by many Taajiks, not doing enough to take care of Taliban i.e. carpet bombing the South to oblivion. Some of them were recently fired from their jobs, others quit in protest. This has been happening back and forth for the past 10 years.

Fortunately they are not calling the shots in Afghanistan due to NATO/American presence, so you find it all in a peaceful fashion because the deterrent is in place (Western forces). We can only imagine without their presence, and support behind Karzai (how ever much that be) the outcome. If it was up to some of them, Afghanistan would be a no Pukhtoon zone, though Westerners realize that in order for their goals to materialize in the region the Pukhtoons are an integral part of the equation. Without them there is o such thing as Afghan-e-Stan.

Then what was forcing Pukhto on whole nation all about? What was isolation of women all about? What was mass-discrimination against Hazaras all about? Or is all this just a lie and nothing more?

I think that is debatable, whether or not they forced Pukhto on people. I know that most of them were Pukhto speakers, so they couldn't communicate with minorities, thus forcing the minorities to improvise. But to say that they institutionalized Pukhto, that's stretching it. As for women, that too is debatable.

Here is a different view:

James Fergusson on the Taliban

YouTube - James Fergusson on the Taliban (Part 1 of 2)
YouTube - James Fergusson on the Taliban (Part 2 of 2)

As for Hazaras, poor them, they got it from everyone not just Pukhtoons. Mostly due to their religious and not ethnic differences. But yes, what happened to them was horrible, whether at the hands of Pukhtoons or Taajiks.

So a Tajik went all the way to Quetta just because he wanted to insult Pukhtoons? Interesting! Moreover, there are enough ridiculous videos posted of Pekhawri girls by Pukhtoons themselves. Heck, just take Pekhawri films for example and look at the joke they make themselves look like, you wouldn't even need a Tajik or Punjabi for that!

Whether a Taajik went to Quetta or not, that is besides the point. The point is they purposely target the most vulnerable spot of the Pukhtoons, and that is our women. The way they are doing it is unspeakable. And by mentioning Pekhawari girls, and Pekhawari films, you are escaping the point. You are justifying the unjustifiable. We can also argue who makes those films and who those poor girls are, dancing and shaking to Pukhto music cluelessly and off beat. Just shaking and lip singing to a strange language and music.

They do want better relations with Iran and Tajikistan but it's not true that they want to merge because they themselves know developed areas like Iran and Tajikistan will never want to merge with them seeing their situation; Unless, economically, they come to the same level.

Try Tajikam.com and other Tajik Parsiwan websites.

If age had anything to do with knowledge then it wouldn't be me telling my parents about how and why we lost Pakhtunkhwa, or what Bacha Khan stood for, or what happened to Pukhtoons in North, or what the seven Hezbs stood for, etcetera. All they know is Afghanistan is under fire because of Russians and foreign interference, that's it! They don't know the cause or anything else for it, and same I have experienced with many other Afghan parents.

The age reference had little to do with knowledge, rather perspective of things, how things were at the time when they were actually unwrapping for those of us that were there and active in the discourse vs. those who still had growing up to do. The world you find was a lot different then the world 10 years ago, for Pukhtoons.

Example this:

And what's your source to that? Assumptions? Or stories?

The defaced and damaged poster and images of Ahmed Shah Baba were posted on the very first Pukhtoon websites. Most of them no longer exist, but many of us who were there to read and view it remember it clearly. It was big news back then midst Pukhtoon circles.

^that's what I meant by age/perspective. Enjoy your happy world.

You as someone from Pakhtunkhwa have to listen to all these negativities against Pukhtoons on Youtube, while I have to hear it both ways from Pukhtoons and Tajiks and all I can do is ignore both so I don't end up insulting either part of me.

As a Pukhtoon from Pukhtoonkhwa I had my share of dealings with Taajiks, and Afghan Pukhtoons. 10 years ago many of us reached out to each other across lines trying to make sense of what was going on. Back then I personally knew little about the differences between a Pukhtoon Afghan and a Taajik Afghan. It was after dealing personally with these differences that a Pukhtoon from Pukhtoonkhwa became aware of the ethnic, political and social differences within the state of Afghanistan.

After the Sep.11 attacks, I witnessed two sides of the Pukhtoons of Afghanistan, the apologetics who were held by the balls by the Parsiwan in all circles here in the West...because Talibs were Pukhtoons, and they were trying very hard not to look like terrorists or supporters of terrorists, always smiling and giggling even when humiliated....and those Afghan Pukhtoons who had now become staunch Pukhtoon nationalists up and arms ready to break something. It wasn't pretty. Many of them that I knew as young men are running things in Afghanistan. It is thanks to them, that Pukhtoons of Afghanistan have what little dignity that they are bestowed upon. Things weren't pretty back then. If it wasn't for these staunch Pukhtoons of Afghanistan people would have eaten Pukhtoons for breakfast. In international circles people were having a field day with Pukhtoons. No one will remember them, especially you younglings, their commitment and sacrifices for their people. It was like a few Germans right after the holocaust trying to protect German interests in an anti-Nazi atmosphere. They had everything to loose, after all they were brethren of the "terrorists".

[Shayesta]

They are imposing on Pukhtoons their will, and currently that is done through politics before that through guns and shells.

Which will wrora? Currently, there is pretty much nothing North can impose on South and nor wants to, and there is pretty much nothing South can impose on North and nor wants to. Any more. And as far as I know, Pukhtoons got arms and shells from a country named Pakistan to fight with against there their own country, and their own people.

I'm sure Karzai can vouch for that, being constantly accused of fraud and Pukhtoon centric, pro-Paki by many Taajiks, not doing enough to take care of Taliban.

I don't know about being pro-Pakistan but he indeed is being accused of fraud and a incapable leader, but Pukhtoons themselves accuse him of being the exactly same thing. Ask Taliban supporters first. And Karzai by far is not only one of being accused of whatever; Pedram is being called Iranian-dog, Fahim is called fascist warlord, Dostum reminded Pukhtoons of the following quote regarding Uzbek politicians; 'Zulme Pashtun yane rahme Uzbek'. Pedram is actually a very good example actually of pro-Iran and yet he is one of Afghanistan's most ignored politician. By it's people.

Some of them were recently fired from their jobs, others quit in protest. This has been happening back and forth for the past 10 years.

I didn't get this part, who are you talking about here?

Fortunately they are not calling the shots in Afghanistan due to NATO/American presence, so you find it all in a peaceful fashion because the deterrent is in place.

You mean that Tajiks don't blame NATO's presence for the ongoing war? Bro, they do know what it's going on and what NATO is all about. Literally only reason they have not to speak against NATO is because they feel better off with NATO than Taliban, and especially the progression going on in North will be very close to being threatened by the Taliban.

We can only imagine without their presence, and support behind Karzai how ever much that be the outcome.

Just like how USA for their own interest backs Karzai, for the same reason exactly Fahim managed to convince Tajiks of backing Karzai, and Dostum managed the same regarding Uzbeks. If Karzai as a Pukhtoon can beg for the very same Dostum's alliance whose men tortured, raped, looted and killed 'his' fellow Pukhtoons (even if they were Taliban supporters) in order to maintain in power, how can you blame anyone at all of calling such a 'man' an incompetent leader and a beghairat Pukhtoon?

If it was up to some of them, Afghanistan would be a no Pukhtoon zone,

Not only them fascists, but fascists amongst Hazaras feel much greater hate towards us than that. And they are not really concerned about Afghanistan consisting of Pukhtoons, they are worried about North falling into Pukhtoon hands. Again.

I know that most of them were Pukhto speakers, so they couldn't communicate with minorities, thus forcing the minorities to improvise.

Not just Pukhto speakers, in Jalalabad even Urdu speakers were noticed but they had translators with them. If they could find a Urdu-Pukhto translator, then why not Dari-Pukhto one? And if they wanted to be leaders of entire Afghanistan then they should have been the one to learn the language all non-Pukhtoons speak, Dari. Not the other way round.

As for Hazaras, poor them, they got it from everyone not just Pukhtoons. Mostly due to their religious and not ethnic differences.

Not necessarily because of their religious differences because Herat was also a Shia province and one of Afghanistan's most successful provinces. I might sound very ignorant but I am guessing it's mainly because of their looks. Despite of political tensions going on between Tajiks and Pukhtoons, still many interact with each other, respect each other, hope for a better future together, and usually want both sides to come to a decision together. What I have noticed is that not only by Pukhtoons, but even by Tajiks Hazaras are not even seen as Afghans and just a very few will think of actually interacting with them. Though their ancestors left Iranian and Northern Afghanistan monuments and ancients in great disaster, yet the dislike towards them only makes me wanna 'blame' one they are 'lacking'; Looks. And I am saying this based on my own observation.

Whether a Taajik went to Quetta or not, that is besides the point. The point is they purposely target the most vulnerable spot of the Pukhtoons, and that is our women.

I was actually referring to a source, where can I find online about this incident?

Try Tajikam.com and other Tajik Parsiwan websites.

There was a debate about Tajikam on this forum months ago, I think you missed it. That forum is as active as is peace in Afghanistan, it's only run by a few idiots of whom majority knows nothing about Afghanistan but yet claim to be Afghan Tajiks. I have come across three of these forum members on Youtube two of them turned out to be Iranians, one Tajiki. Hence the love for Iran.

The world you find was a lot different then the world 10 years ago, for Pukhtoons.

What would you say; Is it better off now or not?

The defaced and damaged poster and images of Ahmed Shah Baba were posted on the very first Pukhtoon websites. Most of them no longer exist.

I have heard about the damage Kabul went through in 2001, about the clashes between Pukhtoons and Panjsheris, about breaking each other's shops and house-windows, about how many Pukhtoons thought it's safer to return where they came from. Nonetheless, I haven't been able to find anything such as Baba's poster 'being pissed on', or being removed completely and replaced by Massoud's poster. Though, today, Kabul is not the same any more and nor is hatred carried as great any more. Not even half as great.

After the Sep.11 attacks, I witnessed two sides of the Pukhtoons of Afghanistan, the apologetics who were held by the balls by the Parsiwan in all circles here in the West...because Talibs were Pukhtoons, and they were trying very hard not to look like terrorists or supporters of terrorists, always smiling and giggling even when humiliated.

I still have to witness such an incident myself or anyone else I heard from. In Holland especially there were some trouble-makers who were mostly Panjsheris, they used to try to annoy Pukhtoons and whenever a Pukhtoon realized it, bloods were shed. In one incidents two Panjsheris even lost lives. I have never seen a Pukhtoon tolerate humiliation, and nor I ever will if I am sure about I know my people's temper enough. Which I am sure of, I am.

It wasn't pretty. Many of them that I knew as young men are running things in Afghanistan. It is thanks to them, that Pukhtoons of Afghanistan have what little dignity that they are bestowed upon.

Every single ethnic works for their dignity in their country, they are not doing any favor but something they should be doing for their people, and their country. Yet so, as I said, Afghanistan today is different and so are Afghans in West. I personally know of people whose last name was 'Tajik' when they newly came from Afghanistan, but just after few months they changed their last names to something less 'qawmi'. It's sad that North and South Afghanistan might never ever again get a chance for interacting much or getting to know each other better, but I am glad this is the case here in West.

Things weren't pretty back then. If it wasn't for these staunch Pukhtoons of Afghanistan people would have eaten Pukhtoons for breakfast.

That's really, really exaggerated though. If Pukhtoons can't be accused of eating Hazaras alive after whatever done to them, then why can someone be accused of it regarding Pukhtoons after a few verbal insults?

It was like a few Germans right after the holocaust trying to protect German interests in an anti-Nazi atmosphere. They had everything to loose, after all they were brethren of the "terrorists".

Nonetheless, despite of their absolutely disgusting acts towards Jews, disabled people, and other minorities, the only reason Nazi still had sympathizers was because they made Germans and Germany rich. They gave Germans power, they gave Germany a name, a secure future for the 'real Germans', and what not. That's the reason only till the day of today a 'real' German, despite of his claims of hating the Nazi, will not look happy when you badmouth Hitler. Been there, done that.