Is Pakistan going back to Pre 80's era of Booze , Bikini's and Bars ?

[Kakar-Wardak]

Just looking at this graph since everything else is prattle.

Population of Pakistan is about 180 Million, 6 Million Middle Class,

Clearly Middle Class in Pakistan's terms is not same as U.S. terms. so let's use the Asian Metric.

Definition of middle class: Economists, developing counties, and agencies disagree.



$4 dollars / day $4 X 365 = $1460/ year.

So Pakistani Middle Class would be anyone that makes a minimum of $1,460/ year. This means if 38% of Pakistan is Middle Class(not a fact but figures claimed by your earlier source), 68.4 Million people , make as much money as 1 semester's tuition at the local public community college per year. Your average middle class person makes as much as MacDonald's employee makes a Month in America. This is poverty by global developmental metrics.

A little basic math and critical thinking debunks the narrative.

Damn ownage.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Its not a coincidence you said majority of Pakistanis live on kachra, profession associated with afghanis in Pakistan. You only want to post some pictures to prove a point and reject neutral reports. You have little idea about Pakistan ground realities and your own people.

Those pictures were neutral pictures, coming from non-political sources. Again own up to your inadequacies and stop trying to look for diversion with superficial cosmetics.

[Elite Pakhtun]

I know it's all bull****s but it will bring down the welfare state eventually.

Welfare state is inherently unsustainable. But... things are not that simple.

[Pakistan]

Just looking at this graph since everything else is prattle.

Population of Pakistan is about 180 Million, 6 Million Middle Class,

Clearly Middle Class in Pakistan's terms is not same as U.S. terms. so let's use the Asian Metric.

Definition of middle class: Economists, developing counties, and agencies disagree.



$4 dollars / day $4 X 365 = $1460/ year.

So Pakistani Middle Class would be anyone that makes a minimum of $1,460/ year. This means if 38% of Pakistan is Middle Class(not a fact but figures claimed by your earlier source), 68.4 Million people , make as much money as 1 semester's tuition at the local public community college per year. Your average middle class person makes as much as MacDonald's employee makes a Month in America. This is poverty by global developmental metrics.

A little basic math and critical thinking debunks the narrative.

Afghans are like those school friends you have in junior high . Who won't have their own lunch but would try to steal it from you just because you have it . All these numbers and calculations were done by people that know more than you and me .

For Global poverty figures you have world bank , and again Pakistan does much better than other developing countries . Just an example

Poverty & Equity Data | Bangladesh | The World Bank
Poverty & Equity Data | Pakistan | The World Bank
Poverty & Equity Data | India | The World Bank

[Pakistan]

Don't co opt your inadequacies on Afghans please, own up to them.

Maybe if you guys put your mind in useful things like Science and Engineering you would be somewhere . How many decent universities does Afghanistan have ? .

Seven Pakistani institutions in Asia's top 3 universities

But its okay you guys are ghairatmand and full of identity .

[Manzareh]

Afghans are like those school friends you have in junior high . Who won't have their own lunch but would try to steal it from you just because you have it . All these numbers and calculations were done by people that know more than you and me .

For Global poverty figures you have world bank , and again Pakistan does much better than other developing countries . Just an example

Poverty & Equity Data | Bangladesh | The World Bank
Poverty & Equity Data | Pakistan | The World Bank
Poverty & Equity Data | India | The World Bank

Friend or foe nobody has ever tried stealing my lunch.

[Pakistan]

I want Pakistanis to be progressive, tolerant of others in discos or mosques (liberals) etc I want Karachi skyline to look like one in New York. I certainly don't want them to keep their tribal identity and fight over it like it happen in Afghanistan.




If that make me western slave then so be it.

Karachi's Skyline is not that bad now. Give it 5-6 years and It will have an international standard Skyline .

[torkham]

Pakistani tv is definitely facing a freer society where women and men sit on morning shows, cross section of guests, mulla in a jina cap, tv star, a hipster bearded youth and the hostess entertains them all. I was there few months ago and I didn't see the morning tv secularism in the bazar. So I suspect it is the jet set who bring ideas they have accepted or like to see in pk.

Good for them. It's a subcontinental mindset, similar language, music, comedy moving into a kind of social change.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Who won't have their own lunch but would try to steal it from you just because you have it . All these numbers and calculations were done by people that know more than you and me .

Which explains why Pakistani Nationalists claim Ahmad Abdali as one of their national heroes, but you can have him for all I care.

For Global poverty figures you have world bank , and again Pakistan does much better than other developing countries . Just an example

Indeed, which is why your interpretation of Middle Class is vacuous; You're in poverty, and for having 6 times the population of Afghanistan, your numbers are abysmal.


All it took for me is some basic math and the narrative came crashing.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Karachi's Skyline is not that bad now. Give it 5-6 years and It will have an international standard Skyline .

You know what your problem is? You lack self esteem and define yourself by other people's metrics, rather than by your own merits.

You recycle the same debate as if you're not convinced of it yourself.

[Friends of Baloch]

Its not a secret that Pre 80's Pakistan was a liberal and open society with bars and even strip clubs operating in Karachi . It was the Hub of Nightlife activities all over Asia . Then Zia came and Everything stopped . The Trend reversed again during Musharraf's time ( who was one of the most secular leader in Pakistan's history ) when fashion shows became Westernized clothes started shrinking and most of the universities started having Pool and Halloween Parties . For people that say Pakistan has become more Islamized I say its the opposite , the Pakistan society with increasing urbanization and growing middle class has gone liberal and open . These things vanished during the 80's and 90's and sprung up again around musharraf's time . Go to any Party happening inside Pakistan's universities and you will be reminded of a society that has gone westernised . Some of the fashion shows will not look out of Place in London or New York . What do you guys think of this change ?









Normal Scenes in Pakistan Fashion Show these days






So is Pakistan reversing back to how it was Pre - Zia days ?

This seem to all be what you could call "Jat behavior". See below:


JĀT

"The Jāts are occasionally dubbed gypsy in ethnographic, historic, and travel accounts. In early post-Islamic Arabic historical records the Jāt are called Zoṭṭ and in the Persian and Arab worlds Jāt and Zoṭṭ are referred to as non-food-producing semi-nomadic people with Indian origins (Westphal-Hellbusch, 1984, p. 356), irrespective of their own claims for ethnic or linguistic identity. There are sizeable communities of settled and nomadic Jāts numbering several millions in India and Pakistan, about which we have a limited ethnographic and historical record (Berland; Bingley; Dahiya; Pande; Pradhan; Qanungo). The present article deals with the Jāts of Afghanistan, a heterogeneous ethnic group that consists of several non-food-producing nomadic and semi-nomadic communities, each calling itself by a distinct descent and/or occupational autonym.

The label Qaw(w)āl is occasionally used interchangeably with the exonym Jāt in Afghanistan. The overlapping social categories Jāt and Qawāl in Afghanistan carry pejorative connotations. No one wants to be identified as Jāt or Qawāl. As such, these two labels do not analytically qualify as ethnonyms but are references to ethnic or social categories to which no one wants to belong. In Afghan popular culture, argumentative and quarrelsome behavior, including careless and carefree speech and dress, especially among young women, is characterized as Jāt behavior. All peripatetic communities reject the label Jāt but apply it to other communities in the larger Jāt ethnic universe. For example, a sub-group of the Jāt called Pikrāj will reject being called Jāt but will assign the label to other sub-groups of the larger Jāt category."

. . .

"Aparna Rao (2004) lists four general features of the Jāt noted by outsiders to differentiate them from other nomadic and semi-nomadic communities in Afghanistan: (1) They lived in houses in urban areas and in white tents when they lived in rural areas and, in contrast to the black goat’s hair tents of the pastoral nomads, in white tents when they lived in rural areas; (2) they were collectively known as outsiders with Indian origins even though a Jāt community itself, as in the case of the Ḡorbat, would claim Iranian roots; (3) they were considered both physically and ritually unclean and associated with undesirable and polluting occupations of feeding on carrion and corpses, bloodletting, prostitution, pimping, and child-abduction; (4) their small and dark physical features validated their Indian, non-Afghan, origins."

JĀT – Encyclopaedia Iranica

[Pakistan]

Which explains why Pakistani Nationalists claim Ahmad Abdali as one of their national heroes, but you can have him for all I care.





Indeed, which is why your interpretation of Middle Class is vacuous; You're in poverty, and for having 6 times the population of Afghanistan, your numbers are abysmal.


All it took for me is some basic math and the narrative came crashing.

Poverty & Equity Data | Pakistan | The World Bank

Poverty headcount ratio at $1.90 a day (2011 PPP) (% of population)
7.9% 2011 6.1% 2013

6.1 % is Alot to you ? Your basic math seems quite weak to me .

[Kabulistan]

What makes you a slave is believing someone's narrative; there's nothing that makes "discos" something that should be apart of a society. That's something completely manufactured .....buying into that, is what mental colonization is ...Progress is very clear cut, it doesn't include discos. that's for mindlessly desperate third world trash to believe .....are you buying in to it?

People who view a culture superior to their own, usually start with adopting the trashiest parts of said cultures, as those are easiest to adopt/implement...

The thought process is that by opening up brothels, night clubs, discos, etc. sell out their own cultural values, they are going to ''progress'' to an wealthy civilization...The problem is no society is perfect, even West, and by adopting everything they have, your taking in the negative things as well, things you can do without.

The solution is to adopt positive attritubes, while keeping the negatives out.

Blindly following others without thinking and copying whatever they do is not progress and in the process losing the core/fundaments of your own identity/culture...Real progress comes from within, not blindly following others and copying everything they do.

People buy into the anti Islam propaganda, but in many aspects Afghans and Muslims can be considered more civilized/cultured than Westerners...the technological advancement is lacking in Islamic societies. this makes the difference in wealth between Muslim world and the West.

How we become more technologically advanced as a society, is not gonna happen by opening discos, night clubs or brothels, or consuming alcohol, eating pork, and what else...

How we progress technologically as a society is by cultivating a culture that allows brilliant minds to blossom and flourish...as the entire prosperity, wealth and technological advancement of Western Europe have relied on the shoulders of very few brilliant minds produced over the last 200 years (beside the coincidence of geographical location but that's another discussion)...

If Muslim societies in the past have produced geniuses who made advancements in various scientific fields, this means Islam is not a hindrance to scientific/technological advancement. If Islamic societies were prosperus and advanced relative to its time in the past, they can be so again in the future.

Nothing is worse than to sell out.

[Pakistan]

You know what your problem is? You lack self esteem and define yourself by other people's metrics, rather than by your own merits.

You recycle the same debate as if you're not convinced of it yourself.

You know what your problem is ? There is nothing Positive going on in Afghanistan . To feel better you have to pull others down .

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Maybe if you guys put your mind in useful things like Science and Engineering you would be somewhere . How many decent universities does Afghanistan have ? .

Seven Pakistani institutions in Asia's top 3 universities

But its okay you guys are ghairatmand and full of identity .

Well being that you created a new account from your Peshawar_22 account and recycled more or less the same rants as before. Are you sure you shouldn't be following your own advice instead of joining forum to overcompensate for some insecure you have?

As for your top 300 Universities .....you recycled this too. To which I respond with what your own Pakistani Intellectuals say about your science output.



This isn't propaganda, but a scientist's own experience with how science and research operates in Pakistan ....much ado about nothing.